question about revivogen

[tobyfan]

I found that revivogen is another DHT inhibitor other than prepecia. But it is exteria used, not pills. So, is there anybody who use them both? Will it be better?

I have used big 3 for 1 month, but the hair loss is the same crazy. In the production website, it says that the effect of revivogen appears significantly in 5 weeks.

I am hesitating whether to use them both.

 

[The Rock]

like giving a dead guy a glass of water, can't hurt.........if u wanan spend the money

 

[mvpsoft]

One month is far, far too short a time to make any judgments. Give the "big 3" at least six months before you make any decisions about adding to or changing your regimen. If you are going to make any additions, I would add a copper peptide rather than Revivogen.

 

[stax]

Hey, actually i would rather add Revivogen than copper peptides.I dont have the e-mail anymore because i had to re-install windows due to viruses but i asked Dr.Lee about copper peptides and he said that it basically wont help with your hairloss.He told me copper peptides had some other use but nothing to do with hairloss.He said that they were supposed to do more further trials with Tricomin (which has copper peptides) and they cancelled it due to poor results.I tried Tricomin for a while aswell and it didnt help.If you really want to add somethings to be more safe than sorry i would add Revivogen and 5% spironolactone Cream from Dr.Lee.Even Dr.Lee told me that some patients of his used Revivogen and they had results with it.If you really want and you have the money i would buy a laser comb too.

 

[viperfish]

I agree I would add cu peptides before revivogen. As a side note I used revivogen for 8-9 months with zero results. All it gave me was some mild scalp irritation. However, this does not mean that it does not work for some. I think seeing as your on propecia the only thing I think lacking from your regimen are Cu peptides, which are vital to have a successful regimen in my opinion.

 

[stax]

So what is the best copper peptides product in your opinion?

 

[mvpsoft]

Hey, actually i would rather add Revivogen than copper peptides.I dont have the e-mail anymore because i had to re-install windows due to viruses but i asked Dr.Lee about copper peptides and he said that it basically wont help with your hairloss.He told me copper peptides had some other use but nothing to do with hairloss.

If he said that, he's wrong. There are clinical studies showing regrowth with copper peptides. Did you ask him about those?

 

[viperfish]

Hey, actually i would rather add Revivogen than copper peptides.I dont have the e-mail anymore because i had to re-install windows due to viruses but i asked Dr.Lee about copper peptides and he said that it basically wont help with your hairloss.He told me copper peptides had some other use but nothing to do with hairloss.He said that they were supposed to do more further trials with Tricomin (which has copper peptides) and they cancelled it due to poor results.I tried Tricomin for a while aswell and it didnt help.If you really want to add somethings to be more safe than sorry i would add Revivogen and 5% spironolactone Cream from Dr.Lee.Even Dr.Lee told me that some patients of his used Revivogen and they had results with it.If you really want and you have the money i would buy a laser comb too.

I've brought this up before, but Dr. Lee has some serious issues with Cu peptides. I can tell you he is wrong! There is plenty of research showing that cu peptides are effective aganist male pattern baldness. They fight aganist inflammation,fibrosis, and may help prevent male pattern baldness all together. Also they have been shown to be a slight growth stimulant. Dr. Lee, although a nice guy, talks out his *** alot. Seriously, he should not make comments about cu peptides when he knows nothing about them. Dr. Proctor and Dr. Pickart both support the use of cu peptides as an effective way to treat male pattern baldness.

 

[viperfish]

So what is the best copper peptides product in your opinion?

Well, you have folligen, tricomin, and american crew. Any of them would be fine. I personally chose the american crew version because it is really cheap in comparison to the others.

 

[Red Rose]

If you are going to make any additions, I would add a copper peptide rather than Revivogen.

Disagree.

I would go for Revivogen over copper peptides.

I wouldn't expect copper peptides to achieve more than good scalp health.

I would expect topical fatty acids to have a better synergistic effect in conjunction with the big 3 than copper peptides.

Not only is revivogen a 5a-reductase inhibitor but also a possible growth stimulator (proanthocyanidins) and androgen receptor blocker. I would therefore would prefer revivogens three-pronged approach to that of copper peptides.

Trust me I have used copper peptides like tricomin and AC for years and I don't believe they're anything more than good leave in conditioners.

 

[mvpsoft]

RR, there are in vivo studies showing cu's promote regrowth. Please point me to similar in vivo (not in vitro, heck, saw palmetto works in vitro) studies showing Revivogen is a regrowth agent. Furthermore, the original poster is already using finasteride, which inhibits the formation of DHT. Since Revivogen is also an anti-DHT agent, it is not clear that adding it to his regimen will have any effect whatsoever. In fact, a while ago I asked Bryan whether adding Revivogen to a regimen that already included finasteride would do much good, and he replied that in his opinion it would not. He said that it was mostly for people who are not taking finasteride. I do not know if he has changed his opinion on that in the last two months. CU's work differently and are much more likely to complement rather than duplicate the actions of the big three.

 

[Red Rose]

RR, there are in vivo studies showing cu's promote regrowth.

"Using an FDA clinically tested method, Tricomin products showed effectiveness in stimulating hair growth in partial FDA Trials."

Please point me to similar in vivo (not in vitro, heck, saw palmetto works in vitro) studies showing Revivogen is a regrowth agent.

For avoidance of doubt I was claiming that GSE is a regrowth agent not revivogen, per se.

STUDY A:
Procyanidin Oligomers selectively and intensively promote proliferation of mouse hair epithelial cells in vitro and activate hair follicle growth in vivo.

J Invest Dermatol 1999 Mar;112 (3):310-6

Takahashi T, Kamiya T, Hasegawa A, Yokoo Y

Tsukuba Research Laboratories, Kyowa Hakko Kogyo, Ibaraki, Japan.

We have previously reported that proanthocyanidins extracted from grape seeds possess growth-promoting activity toward murine hair epithelial cells in vitro and stimulate anagen induction in hair cycle progression in vivo. This report constitutes a comparison of the growth-promoting activity of procyanidin oligomers and the target cells of procyanidins in the skin. Results show that procyanidin dimer and trimer exhibit higher growth-promoting activity than the monomer. The maximum growth-promoting activity for hair epithelial cells with procyanidin B-2, an epicatechin dimer, reached about 300% (30 microM) relative to controls (= 100%) in a 5 d culture. Optimum concentration of procyanidin C-1, an epicatechin trimer, was lower than that of procyanidin B-2; the maximum growth-promoting activity of procyanidin C-1 was about 220% (3 microM). No other flavonoid compounds examined exhibit higher proliferative activities than the procyanidins. In skin constituent cells, only epithelial cells such as hair keratinocytes or epidermal keratinocytes respond to procyanidin oligomers. Topical application of 1% procyanidin oligomers on shaven C3H mice in the telogen phase led to significant hair regeneration [procyanidin B-2, 69.6% +/- 21.8% (mean +/- SD); procyanidin B-3, 80.9% +/- 13.0%; procyanidin C-1, 78.3% +/- 7.6%] on the basis of the shaven area; application of vehicle only led to regeneration of 41.7% (SD = 16.3%). In this paper, we demonstrate the hair-growing activity of procyanidin oligomers both in vitro and in vivo, and their potential for use as agents to induce hair growth.

Furthermore, the original poster is already using finasteride, which inhibits the formation of DHT. Since Revivogen is also an anti-DHT agent, it is not clear that adding it to his regimen will have any effect whatsoever.

Yes but finasteride doesn’t reduce serum DHT levels down to zero. The remaining DHT in the serum could very well still be affecting the hair follicles which would explain why people on finasteride sometimes continue to recede.

In fact, a while ago I asked Bryan whether adding Revivogen to a regimen that already included finasteride would do much good, and he replied that in his opinion it would not.

Right, well then you must be right. :roll:

CU's work differently and are much more likely to complement rather than duplicate the actions of the big three.

Yeah they're great for scalp health and that is all.

 

[stax]

Actually I would have to disagree with that mvpsoft.Propecia only reduces the amount of serum level DHT in the scalp by 38%. This is still leaving 62% DHT that are attacking the hair follicles.This is so because the predominant enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT in the scalp is type 1, 5-alpha reductase which is not affected by finasteride. On the other hand Revivogen is shown to Decrease DHT in the scalp only by binding with both 1 & 2, 5-Alpha reductase. So whoever said that their would be no point in taking both Propecia and Revivogen was giving out some seriously bad advise in my opinion.Propecia isn't a miracle drug that stop all DHT from the scalp.Only 38% which is not really that much.This was confirmed by Merck and actually 5mg of Propecia was shown to have these results but i guess 1mg would have that same results aswell since the dose from 0.2mg and 5mg showed to have a very similar effect on the scalp.I mean mabye if you are taking Dutasteride then their might not be a reason to take Revivogen since Dutasteride binds with both 1 & 2, 5-alpha reductase which would stop the formation of DHT in the scalp directly.But i would never take this drug as i think it is reallly dangerous and it't not FDA -approved yet to be used safetly for male pattern baldness.Oh and the study's and trials done on Copper Peptides only involved around 36 people i think and SOME of them had some results.I was told that the further trials were cancelled due to poor results.I mean i seriously dont think they would help fight male pattern baldness.Why is the reason our sclaps itch and are inflammed?With for those of us effected by male pattern baldness it is because when DHT attaches to the androgen receptor sites at the hair follicle, it triggers a very complicated chain of events that results in the miniaturization of the follicles with a surrounding inflammatory response. So stopping DHT from attacking/binding to the androgen receptor sites would reduce or stop the inflammation caused by DHT which cause male pattern baldness.So i would recommend adding both Revivogen and 5% spironolactone since it helps stop DHT from binding to the adrogen receptors in the scalp and reduced DHT in the scalp.I mean if you have the money it is better to be safe than sorry in my opinion.I would even switch from normal Minoxidil to Xandrox 15 (night) and Xandrox 5 (day) since it contains Anzelic Acid which inhibits the synthesis of DHT in the scalp and people are having good results using these.Also remember that some people just dont respond to treatments and not everything will work for everybody.

 

[mvpsoft]

CU's work differently and are much more likely to complement rather than duplicate the actions of the big three.

Yeah they're great for scalp health and that is all.

This is simply false. They promote regrowth by enlarging the follicles, as research by both Procyte and Skin Biology has demonstrated. If you have doubts, you might want to look at http://www.folligen.com or http://www.procyte.com

In studies done on mice, the areas treated with cu's showed significantly more regrowth than the untreated areas.

As far as the claim made by stax that Revivogen has been shown to decrease DHT in the scalp, my understanding is that Revivogen has done no in vivo studies at all, i.e., no studies on the scalp. The ingredients in Revivogen have been shown to reduce the formation of DHT in vitro, not on the scalp. Like I said, saw palmetto does great in vitro too, but that doesn't mean it works on the scalp. Actually one of the ingredients in Revivogen is saw palmetto.

Look, if you want to use Revivogen, by all means do so. But let's at least be accurate about the state of the evidence and what is and what is not known about the efficacy of Revivogen and copper peptides, respectively.

 

[Red Rose]

As far as the claim made by stax that Revivogen has been shown to decrease DHT in the scalp, my understanding is that Revivogen has done no in vivo studies at all, i.e., no studies on the scalp. The ingredients in Revivogen have been shown to reduce the formation of DHT in vitro, not on the scalp. Like I said, saw palmetto does great in vitro too, but that doesn't mean it works on the scalp. Actually one of the ingredients in Revivogen is saw palmetto.

Incorrect.

Gamma Linolenic Acid and Alpha Linolenic Acid

STUDY A: Growth suppression of hamster flank organs by topical application of gamma-linolenic and other fatty acid inhibitors of 5 alpha-reductase.

AUTHOR
Liang T; Liao S

JOURNAL
Journal of Investigational Dermatology: 1997 Aug; 109 (2): 152-7

ABSTRACT
Certain unsaturated aliphatic fatty acids, such as gamma-linolenic acid, inhibit 5alpha-reductase activity in vitro and in vivo. Hamster flank organ growth, as measured by the increase in the area of pigmented macule, is dependent on androgen. When one of the paired flank organs of a castrated hamster was treated topically with testosterone, the treated organ, but not the contralateral flank organ, became larger and darker. Topical application of gamma-linolenic acid to the testosterone-treated flank organ suppressed this testosterone effect. Other fatty acids that were not inhibitors of 5alpha-reductases were not active. Topical treatment of hamster flank organs with 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone also stimulated the growth of the organ. This 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone-dependent activity, however, was not significantly affected by gamma-linolenic acid, suggesting that flank organ growth was dependent on 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone and that gamma-linolenic acid acted by inhibiting 5alpha-reductase. With intact male hamsters, the endogenous androgen-dependent growth of flank organs is also suppressed by topical treatment with gamma-linolenic acid. The effect of gamma-linolenic acid is localized at the site of its application; topical application of gamma-linolenic acid did not affect the androgen-dependent growth of other organs such as testis, epididymis, seminal vesicle, and prostate. gamma-Linolenic acid, with low toxicity and absence of systemic effect, therefore may be potentially useful for treatment of androgen-dependent skin disorders.

 

[Red Rose]

mvpsoft I am surprised actually that you are not aware that the fatty acids in revivogen inhibit 5a-reductase and also possibly block androgen receptors.

That aside are you going to tell me what the correct state of the evidence is, as you put it.

 

[mvpsoft]

mvpsoft I am surprised actually that you are not aware that the fatty acids in revivogen inhibit 5a-reductase and also possibly block androgen receptors.

I was aware of that, as I stated that it had been shown in vitro. So please don't misrepresent what I have previously stated. Why are you not aware of what copper peptides can do, yet you are making false claims about them?

The study you cited has nothing to do with hair, only with internal organs. Until there are studies showing that Revivogen itself (since it is a combination of ingredients) inhibits the formation of DHT and is effective on the scalp (or the skin of rodents, since they have hair on most of their skin), we don't have any direct in vivo evidence that Revivogen is effective as an anti-androgen on the scalp. That is what I have been saying, and that is in fact the state of the evidence as far as I'm aware. CU peptides, OTOH, have been shown to generate regrowth of hair on the skin of mice, and Pickart states that this is because they enlarge the hair follicles.

I'm not saying that there is no evidence that some of the ingredients in Revivogen, when they are isolated, are anti-androgens, only that (1) we don't know if they work when they are mixed together, and (2) there is no direct evidence that they are effective on the scalp/skin.

Saw palmetto is an anti-androgen too, which is why people thought that taking it orally would help combat hair loss. Unfortunately, they are mistaken -- it has no (positive) effect. That's why unless there is direct, not circumstantial clinical evidence, we have to be careful. We should not make claims that go beyond what the evidence actually shows.

 

[Red Rose]

I was aware of that, as I stated that it had been shown in vitro. So please don't misrepresent what I have previously stated.

We seem to be going round in circles here.

I suggest you reread the study I have just posted because the study using the hamster flank-organ is in vivo.

I accept that peptides might be of some benefit but I reiterate that I prefer the 3 pronged approach of revivogen over copper peptides.

 

[mvpsoft]

Scalp, Red Rose, not organs. Saw palmetto reduces the size of the prostate, and that's an organ, but taken orally it does nothing on the scalp. Also, we don't know for sure that the ingredients in Revivogen work together the same way they may work when not put together.

All you can claim is that some of the individual ingredients in Revivogen are anti-androgens. You cannot claim more than that.

 

[Red Rose]

Also, we don't know for sure that the ingredients in Revivogen work together the same way they may work when not put together.

http://www.revivogen.com/research/trial.html

All you can claim is that some of the individual ingredients in Revivogen are anti-androgens. You cannot claim more than that.

No, I have already shown you an in vivo study confirming proanthocyanidins as a potential agent to induce hair growth.