Question for HairLossTalk......

[BuckeyeBuck]

My son is 20 years old. He has always had real thick hair all over his head. But, over the last several months, his hairline has been receeding
above his forehead. I had thought about suggesting using Procerin and
Revivogen. What are your thoughts about his situation and these products ? Would suggest using something else ? Thanks, as this is all
new to us.

 

[HairlossTalk]

Scratch the Procerin entirely.

Save the Revivogen for later, if he does not respond to Propecia + Nizoral shampoo. Have him start on both using nizoral once every 3 days (allow it to soak for the duration of the shower) and tell him to ride out any sheds, no matter how thin his hair seems to get during them. Give it a good 10 months, and he should be pretty much on his way to completely stopping his hair loss from getting any worse than the day he started the Propecia/Nizoral Regimen.

If at the 12 month mark he does not see a stoppage of hair loss, he can add Rogaine 5% and give it another 6 to 8 months. If at that point still no results, consider adding Revivogen, or Tricomin Therapy Spray, or Topical Spironolactone Lotion from Dr. lee at minoxidil.com

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

Minoxidil, minoxidil???????????????????? :freaked2:

 

[HairlossTalk]

Minoxidil? Please review the sentence above:

"If at the 12 month mark he does not see a stoppage of hair loss, he can add Rogaine 5% and give it another 6 to 8 months."

There is absolutely no reason for a brand new receder/thinner to use both Propecia and Rogaine at the same time. I can't count the number of guys, including myself who totally stopped their loss and maintained everything on Propecia alone. That's what it is best at, and it should at least be tried first.

No harm in giving Propecia a year, seeing if it does the job, pacing themselves, and saving the other clinically proven treatment (Minoxidil) for later if/when Propecia stops working, 5-7 years down the line. Absolutely no reason why all the big guns should be pulled out at the first sign of hair loss, especially when Rogaine has a proven track record of only 3 to 5 years of effectiveness.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

That is your opinion, and I respectfully disagree.

The risk with your strategy is that during the year, one can lose follicles that will never regenerate hair again. And the whole duration of effectiveness of each treatment cannot be automatically assumed when treatments are combined.


Informed consent, no?

 

[Cassin]

The strong possibilities of propecia working on it's own, and haveing the hassle free regimen of simply popping one pill a day is worth the minor risk of not adding Monixidil right away.

I believe long term success of fighting male pattern baldness is a simple hassle free regimen.

 

[Guest]

The strong possibilities of propecia working on it's own, and haveing the hassle free regimen of simply popping one pill a day is worth the minor risk of not adding Monixidil right away.

I believe long term success of fighting male pattern baldness is a simple hassle free regimen.

I appreciate that but you have not addressed the issue I raised. This board has many posts from folks who have used propecia and have no results to show for it over a 12 month period. THEN they start minoxidil and have wasted many hair follicles in the bargain. I just thought our new friend would like to know that this was a risk.

A bit too much faith in propecia alone in my opinion. Frankly, I think the product ON ITS OWN, is overrated but it is simply my value judgement. And, for folks who don't get side effects AND use it with other products, I think it is just fine.

:hairy:

 

[HairlossTalk]

That is your opinion, and I respectfully disagree.

Im basing my opinion on the data, not discussion forum reports.

The risk with your strategy is that during the year, one can lose follicles that will never regenerate hair again.

How does one measure that they lost a follicle, and that it never came back again? Where is the documentation where a Responder to Propecia took it for 1 year and still lost some hairs that never came back? This is entirely conjecture. I know of no evidence that supports this theory.

Just because there's a theory out there that there's a diff. betw. Propecia-dependant hair and minoxidil-dependant hair does not mean Propecia is unable to maintain all hair.

The data states that 83% of people will be responders, and responders will maintain all the hair they have, and a certain percentage will increase hair count after 2 years of use. Nothing in the propecia trial data acknowledges a loss of certain follicles for responders, and nothing in the Minoxidil data suggests that there is a difference between the hairs it stimulates and those Propecia maintains.

If the data, not only from the FDA trials but several trials afterwards clearly states that hair count was maintained or increased, then there is no "loss of follicles" for those people. AKA, responders.

And the whole duration of effectiveness of each treatment cannot be automatically assumed when treatments are combined.

It would be conjecture to assume in either direction. That it lasts longer when combined or lasts the same. So I didn't make a claim based upon conjecture. I made the claim based on the data - which says if used end to end, you have a great chance of 12 years of results. If used up front, you DO risk only 7 years of effectiveness. Keep in mind, after 7 years on great results Propecia alone, you add Minoxidil, and you've now got that combination going - which you assume will make them last longer, so that 12 years may become 15 or 20!!!!!!!!

By the way, 90% of the guys who go on Propecia, take nothing else, and see results, never come back here because hair loss, in their mind, is completely conquered. Unlike you state, there are TONS of guys getting results on Propecia alone. That is where I stood with Propecia as well. And the data supports that. Out of 1,553 men 1,288 of them either maintained every hair on their head after TWO YEARS of use, or had an increase! The data has proven that. They even counted hairs. Can't get more exact than that.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Bob_Marley]

I agree with HairLossTalk.com. Conditional on if this guy is even willing to take propecia.

No need for rogaine until later unless it's going to be your primary treatment.

My advice everytime to someone who just noticed they are receding, which in most cases is probably .5-1 inch(unless you were super paranoid about baldness early on) with tiny bit thinning along hairline, is get on the propecia and see if it works. IF you're not willing to take the finasteride plunge, then hope to f*cking hell, that you can deal with sh*tty applications, greasy hair, minoxidil sweating into your eyes, greasy pubic hairs and all for about only 67%(this could be wrong) of it actaully working.

 

[Guest]

HairLossTalk.com,

You know it is funny, whenever you have an opinion, you make it into fact based on data. Data simply gives way to interpretation and that is not like talking about gravity.

In my opinion, your bias towards propecia and against minoxidil is well documented AND as you well know, one can take the limited data we have on these two drugs and dance till the cows come home.

I find this interesting that you always put minoxidil in the back of the bus and advocate a hormone altering treatment for a twenty year old when you yourself don't use the drug.

But you sell it ? Like it or not, I see the bias.

Anyway, I know you will rip me a new a hole on this but, hey it is your nickle.


And BTW-of course, no one can PROVE how many follicles a man will lose while he is waiting for propecia to work, if it does at all. I never said it was a fact, just that IF IT WERE ME, I would not risk it.

Just like I would not risk taking propecia. But that is just me.

Lastly, I would love to see your data set on the following statement:

"By the way, 90% of the guys who go on Propecia, take nothing else, and see results, never come back here because hair loss, in their mind, is completely conquered"

Is this study published or not?

Hmmm

:hairy:

 

[Vampa]

Well, while I'm relatively new to this (aka I finally admitted to the fact that I'm receeding), I would suggest both propecia/proscar and minoxidil.

My reasonings is that many on this board report good regrowth when used in tandem. As such, I'd say have your son use both for about a year or until his hairline returns (whichever's first). Then, your son should cut back slowly on the minoxidil until he starts losing it again. He might be able to get away with only propecia, or it could be simply just a few times a week.

While it's possible that he may have never needed minoxidil and propecia alone would've worked, I'd say attack this hair loss as soon as possible with all of the proven treatments. It would be better to have him use both and get all of his hair back even though he only needed propecia than have him only use propecia and just stop the recession and by the time he uses minoxidil, it's too late to regrow it.

Oh, and use the Nizoral shampoo. It feels great and seems to be highly effective for thickening hair (hair follicles supposedly will grow 8% thicker, which isn't a lot, but every bit helps).

 

[Kramer3]

Since were speaking of the neccessity of using various treatments in tandem with one another, do you think adding folligen be superfluous if your already on the Big 3. I'm still only 18 and don't really want to exhaust all possible treatments. At the same time though I'm having trouble getting rid of dandruff/irritation/scaling and everyone seems to absolutely praise folligen. Would it be a mistake to add something like that when I'm already on the three "proven treatments"?

 

[Bryan]

Hmmm....

I don't quite fully agree with either HairLossTalk.com or BruceLee on this issue. I'm not sure if my position is BETWEEN you two guys, or completely outside of it!

My view is that minoxidil should be considered simply a palliative measure for hairloss. As I've said so many times, it probably doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process itself, it just provides an "offset of extra growth" (as Vera Price so aptly put it in a fairly recent Rogaine study) above and beyond what you would normally have at any given point in time.

Therefore, if you use Propecia for a period of time and it doesn't stop the loss of hair, then adding Rogaine is probably only going to postpone the inevitable. It buys you some time, in other words. I wouldn't consider it as anything other than that.

And BTW, I'm not saying not to use Rogaine! I'm saying that if you WANT an extra offset of growth, then use it. If you DON'T want an extra offset of growth, then don't use it.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

As usual, a thoughtful response! My thought is that minoxidil inserts itself in the male pattern baldness process somewhere along the end of the cycle whereas Propecia works the other end, the beginning phases. Anti inflammatories work the middle so to speak.

Simplistic notion, I know but I think it might be valid anyway.

Thanks Bryan.

 

[Guest]

jeez, this thread has got me all confused. I've been on finasteride for just about 2 months and minoxidil for about 3weeks. Although i only use minoxidil on my trashed temples. I am diffusing all over the top with the thinnest area being the same as HairLossTalk.com, the front right behind the hairline. I agree with HairLossTalk.com that propecia should be used for a year because i feel that its best to use the least amount of treatments to combat hairloss. The only reason i'm even using minoxidil is because my hairline at the temples is gone, i'm just seeing if i can get any results there because there is nothing there to maintain except peachfuzz. For guys just noticing thinning/receding i think its best to just use finasteride. For guys that have waited years to combat hairloss and need significant regrowth, use both.

 

[HairlossTalk]

You know it is funny, whenever you have an opinion, you make it into fact based on data.

Yes, I base my opinions upon the data. There are exact hair counts available to you in that data, and still you're saying im twisting it to conform to my opinion? They counted the hairs. Your theory is contradictory to the data, and it is absolutely impossible to claim that anyone can track follicles all over the head, and see which ones are lost due to absence of minoxidil. Don't get emotional and start insulting me and taking juvenile pot shots at me. Argue with the data. Im asking for your data to back up your claim. I have mine, do you have yours?

In my opinion, your bias towards propecia and against minoxidil is well documented

Thats just downright absurd to say. One guy says all I do is scream Propecia and Minoxidil ... another guy says im biased against minoxidil... another guy says Im paid to think the way I do on Revivogen. Opinions are like *** holes. Everyone's got one and they all stink. Spare me the insanity, please. Stop getting emotional and childish. Discuss the data. Not your opinion. Ever since our disagreement about the pathetic reputation doctors are building for themselves, you've been copping an attitude. Leave out the emotion and the insults and just show me the data, so I can admit you're right, and admit im wrong.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

My view is that minoxidil should be considered simply a palliative measure for hairloss.

Exactly what I have said. It does nothing to stop the cause of hair loss, it simply usurps the process. Its well documented that Propecia can completely stop the process, at least for a period of time. So far you agree with me here.

it just provides an "offset of extra growth"

Again, fully in agreement with my view on minoxidil. I simply don't think that offset is REQUIRED at the start, when a guy has a full head of slightly thinning hair, like Bruce does.

Therefore, if you use Propecia for a period of time and it doesn't stop the loss of hair, then adding Rogaine is probably only going to postpone the inevitable. It buys you some time, in other words. I wouldn't consider it as anything other than that.

Again, you're in agreement with me. If you use Propecia for a period of time and it doesn't stop the loss of hair, then adding Rogaine will buy you some time. Word for word what I said.

Use Propecia and if it does not work, add Rogaine. Pace yourself. There is no data supporting this theory that certain follicles will die in the absence of minoxidil, for someone who responds well to Propecia.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

I agree with HairLossTalk.com that propecia should be used for a year because i feel that its best to use the least amount of treatments to combat hairloss.

Exactly my thoughts.

The only reason i'm even using minoxidil is because my hairline at the temples is gone, i'm just seeing if i can get any results there.

Again, it seems everyone is in agreement with me on this issue. Rogaine is used primarily to stimulate growth in those who are seriously in need of an extra kick of regrowth, in certain areas of the scalp. I absolutely recommend Rogaine UP FRONT for those people.

Those who are just starting to thin, and are happy to maintain what they have and possibly thicken up a bit only need Propecia. They do not need both. Pace yourself and as Bryan said, if you don't see results on Propecia, you can always add Rogaine later.

Trust the clinical data. It says Propecia alone will give you an overwhelmingly high chance of total maintenance, all by itself. Of course you need Rogaine if you need to regrow a cosmetically noticeable amount of hair, and your goal is not just to maintain and stop the process. Basic logic! Nothin to argue about here

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

While it's possible that he may have never needed minoxidil and propecia alone would've worked, I'd say attack this hair loss as soon as possible with all of the proven treatments.

There are only 2 proven treatments. That's part of why this is such a difficult topic. Your argument is sound. The only problem I would have with it, is that we know for a fact that these treatments do not last forever.

If you're a 22 year old who JUST started thinning, you've got a good 30 years of hair loss fighting to do still. That's a LONG time!

Pacing yourself and using treatments End-To-End is a very logical thing to do, especially if you respond well to Propecia, and can literally buy yourself 7 years on it all by itself.

Just think, after 7 years you still have Rogaine and a whole handful of potentially helpful treatments. The end of your tunnel is nowhere in sight.

The guy who uses all the treatments up front just for minor thinning... what happens when he starts to see lack of results in 7 years? Where is he going to turn? What does he use next?

For him, there's nothing left.

Give Propecia a chance to do its job, all by itself, if you're happy to maintain what you have today and possibly thicken up a little. There's an 83% chance you wont be thinking about hair loss again until the year 2011.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

Let me just say this:

I am consistent, with my own hair loss fight. Im happy to maintain and thicken a little. So what did I do? I put Minoxidil on hold. Telling me that im emotionally biased against a liquid that grows hair is just plain dumb.

Im simply pacing myself, and giving others the same advice. It gives me peace of mind that its still there to use, if everything else falls apart. That makes me feel good. Simple as that!

I responded well to Propecia, so my prayers were answered. Total maintenance for nearly 3 years. Didn't think about hair loss at all. And guess what? To top off that good news, I still had Rogaine waiting in the wings if something fell through. That FEELS GREAT!

I had to stop Propecia due to side effects, and what did I do? Start dumping on the minoxidil and Tricomin (both clinically backed growth stimulants) ? No. I sat and logically thought it through. I had results on a DHT inhibitor alone. Good results. So what can I do to minimize my regimen, pace myself, and still obtain the same results? A little research, and with the advice of Bryan, I used Revivogen (topical DHT Inhibitor) and Topical spironolactone Lotion (antiandrogen).

Again, totally consistent. Again, total maintenance so far, no negative progression, and guess what? Ive now bought myself almost 5 years, and I still haven't even touched the growth stimulants yet. If everything falls through, I still have those waiting in the wings, as part of my arsenal.

Whats my plan for the future? To be consistent with the advice I am giving people here. If Revivo&spironolactone stop maintaining for me, the first thing I will do is add Rogaine. Then I will give it at least 6 months to a year. I will use that combination until results begin to fail. Then I will add Tricomin because I feel thats the next most clinically proven growth stimulant (and im out of antiandrogen options at this point. again, its all a logical thought process, nothing "biased"). Adding treatments end-to-end. If and when results start to fail on that regimen, I will probably add Folligen spray. When results on all of those begins to fail, i will begin looking into the realm of desperation and absurdity - the herbal realm. All i can say is Im glad ive probably still got several years before I even have to consider using Rogaine, and then who knows how long after that before I run out of options... while others may be on the doorstep of herbal desperation in the next few years because they've already used everything.

Im living proof that you don't need minoxidil up front if your goal is maintenance. Sure, I would like to have a thick wall of hair up front like I used to, but I am happy to keep what I have now, consider myself lucky to have what I have now, and would rather prolong this fight to age 50 than run out of options by age 35.

HairLossTalk.com