Question for HairLossTalk......

[Guest]

A quick set of comments.

I did not call you names or take pot shots at you. I simply tried to point out how one sided you appear on this wait to start minoxidil. Not everyone agrees with you on this and that is the only point I made.

At the same time, you do reveal strong biases that simply are not open to any other train of thought. That is very clear on this subject and others. Since you own the game, you make the rules. That is clear too. Disagree with you at our own peril.


I prefaced all of my statements that they were my opinions in the face of VERY LITTLE data on the nature of male pattern baldness and most importantly, a THEORY that SEEMS to be supported by observations about minoxidil works.

So, HairLossTalk.com, unlike you, I am not pedantic about it. You on the other hand, are.

If you need proof, look at how many posts and how hard you have tried to be RIGHT on this matter. As if there was a right to begin with.

I do believe it is you with the attitude and I think that is obvious in your postings of late.

Yes, there is no proof that SP works and you and I are in agreement on that. You have however, made this a crusade of sorts.

My last comment on this matter (I don't have the luxury of locking the thread like you do) is that you live in San Diego, get out more, emjoy the sun, and lighten up.

We all go out feet first!

 

[blue]

This is becomin a soap opera with you two,cant we all just get along?

 

[Guest]

This is becomin a soap opera with you two,cant we all just get along?

Well, if you are going to invoke the words of Rodney King, how can I refuse?

:lol:

 

[Healthy Nick]

First off, the propecia studies seem a little too good to be true. If it was as good as the studies indicate, than it would be a miracle drug that would have the popularity of v****. :roll:

I also trust Bruce Lee's opinion more than anyone else in this thread because he's been dealing with hairloss pretty much longer than anyone here, he has used all the products being talked about, and he doesn't own a site selling all these products.



As for my opinion on the thread starter's son: Read a lot and make an educated decision.

Take a look at your family and see what kind of balding history there is. He might just be getting a mature hairline, and it will end at that etc.

 

[reallysad]

I think I agree to a certain extent with what Bruce says. HairLossTalk.com, you claim that you base your opinions on data. However, I do observe that you use it only when it supports your arguments.

Firstly, you say that doctors know nuts. And you based it on your own experience, fine.... but also on what was mentioned on the forum....factual data???

Second, I notice you support some stuff outside the big 3 but totally condemn other type of possible "cures". Y? Facts? Data? or just personal opinion?

Regardless, I would like to say that your site is very informative and I have benefited from it. For that, I would like to say thanks!

 

[Resultsnottypical]

minoxidil v. finasteride

I am 33 and have had great success with minoxidil alone. I tried propecia about three years ago and wimped out once the side effects kicked in (around week 5), they may have gone away, may not have.

I have read the various studies and if I recall correctly, doesn't minoxidil actually grow more hair than propecia?

Other than the fact that finasteride has a chance to screw with your horomones, I would agree with HairLossTalk.com that propecia probably is best when you are 20 and balding...If I had taken it from when I was 25 and first noticed loss, I probably would have the same exact head of hair today as I did then (pretty thick blond hair) because it was the DHT afterall, that over the years, killed it.

BUT, it would seem to me, once you are 30, and DHT has wrecked a lot of follicles (and apparently hasn't gotten "worse" on me over the last 7 years or so), that minoxidil would be the best answer.

I strongly support HairLossTalk.com's citing of peer-reviewed studies, like the ones on propecial, particularly when it comes to the side effects. However, although it goes against my better objective judgement, I really question if the TWO percent is correct...also, I speculate, that perhaps guys like me, with male pattern baldness and diffuse thinning, who can "go" 4 times a day regularly, might indeed have more of our sex drive controlled by DHT Testosterone...maybe that is why it has such a profound effect on some men and hardly any on others...it might also wind up being more effective on guys like me.

But I really am leery of getting a 20-year-old on something horomone alterning. And do we REALLY know the long-term effects such a drug will have on men taking it, who are say, 18-25-ish? I know many men have taken it for years, but isn't some of that data based on Proscar who started when they were like, 40, or older?

What effect could there be of a 20-year-old, altering his normal DHT levels just five years or so, out of puberty?

ANyhow, for me, and for guys in their 30s, 40s, I would say, stick with minoxidil...the DHT battle is already lost...and as in my case, you may have leveled off in the amount of loss you will have due to DHT. My semi-horshoe (due to fine hairs that are present by not visible on the top) has been the same the last 5 or so years. minoxidil turned that around. Would propecia, this late in the game, do that? Or simply maintain it, as it already has BEEN maintained?

 

[Guest]

First off, the propecia studies seem a little too good to be true. If it was as good as the studies indicate, than it would be a miracle drug that would have the popularity of v****. :roll:

I also trust Bruce Lee's opinion more than anyone else in this thread because he's been dealing with hairloss pretty much longer than anyone here, he has used all the products being talked about, and he doesn't own a site selling all these products.



As for my opinion on the thread starter's son: Read a lot and make an educated decision.

Take a look at your family and see what kind of balding history there is. He might just be getting a mature hairline, and it will end at that etc.

Thanks.

 

[Guest]

Re: minoxidil v. finasteride

Interesting thoughts. You might want to try a topical DHT fighter and/or folligen to supplement the minoxidil. In addition, TGEL and nizoral seem like a natural to add if you don't already use them.

 

[Resultsnottypical]

regimen

Bruce:

I have considered adding Folligen based on your experiences and what I have read. One of my MAIN goals is to keep this stuff simple. I am just about "cosmetically acceptable"..well, I guess I am, in that, I have grown my hair out (from razor shaving) to essentially a "buzz" and died it black (from blond). Unless I am under a lot of light, I look like a normal, short buzz-cut 30-something. With some slight diffuse thinning and a little less on the crown...in other words, about like 90 percent of the 33-year-olds out there (including those not on anything).

I just ordered Couvre, because if I can rub in some cream and basically cosmetically reach that level I want, that is fine with me. I expect more results from minoxidil as the months go by. It's been 6 and it has done wonders.

But if I could maybe just add ONE thing (besides my regiment of minoxidil and head and shoulders), it might be Folligen. Maybe every other nite, put it on instead of minoxidil.

My results are good enough that I don't really need to do three or four things. But if I could simply add one more thing and get a LOT better results (especially THICKER hair), it might be worth it.

Dying my hair really did wonders...it brought out ALL the hair that minoxidil rewgrew so far, and since I keep it short, I don't have to worry about the fact that much of it will not grow long, and is thinner (hopefully that will change too).

I am concerned about basing propecia's long-term safety on a cohort of men that are taking proscar, and are in their late 30s, or 40s or 50s. Not saying men who are on propecia have not been watched either, but given my nutsack response at 28, 29 or so, to the stuff, I can only imagine the havoc it could create for a guy who is 20 and still have regular horomonal changes going on (for example, my beard came in more and more in my 20s, proof that I was still "maturing").

I am curious what Dr. Dean Edell would think about this.

 

[Guest]

Re: regimen

My experience would suggest that folligen is an excellent compliment to minoxidil. I would certainly add nizoral and TGEL shampoos and use each one of them for two weeks and then switch to the other. Use them say every third day. No fuss, no muss and there is good support for adding these shampoos.

The ONE concern I have about folligen is that it might not interact well with your dyed hair. I don't have dyed hair and so I don't have any experience with how Folligen reacts with hair dye. Dr. Pickart might know.


Can't hurt to start with one bottle of therapy spray and see how you react.

I too have some concerns about propecia and its long term impacts, based on my personal experience of 2 yrs use, and from some SPECULATIVE articles by several MD/researchers.

Suffice it to say, I am a topical guy right now.

Best of luck!

 

[Cassin]

Celtictigyr just email the fine folks at Skinbiology and ask as many questions as you want. The always get back to you within 1 day unless the question requires Dr Pickart to answer then it always takes 2 days. Great customer service. copperbeauty@earthlink.net.

I will say this though, I considered my regimen relatively hassle free until I added Folligen. It is somewhat of a pain in the ***. Once you apply it, you are homebound for the night or day until you wash it out. If you had an understanding wife then that is different I suppose.

EDIT:

This goes along with what I was saying earlier about a simple approach to fighting male pattern baldness. Now my regimen is a hassle. Often guys hop on here and after 2 weeks of getting questions answered they are suddenly on 6 things to fight hairloss. At first they are all pumped about it, but after awhile things change. One hell of a lifestyle change to suddenly have to map out your day applying treatments to your head. It would be so much easier to simply pop a pill.

I would just carefully consider keeping this as simple as possible before adding a single thing more thing to your regimen. Just ask yourself a few questions first.

1 Have you given other things enough time?

2 Are you just being impatient?

3 Do I really want to use "X" for here on out? If you add something your are pretty much stuck with it unless you find it's equivalent elsewhere.

I love Folligen for what it does, but I wish my scalp could handle Nizoral to combat the irritation side affect from Minoxidil 5%. Had I started on Propecia early enough, I wouldn't have had to start applying Minoxidil. Now because I am forced to use it (since I waited so long), I must use a 3rd product to make the 2nd work.

 

[Resultsnottypical]

good points

Good points Cassin, exactly my thoughts on the subject of simplicity as well. I would only add Folligen if I knew it would provide a SUBSTANTIAL amount of thickening and/or regrowth. I have no irritation issues with minoxidil, I have never had any problems with minoxidil. I feel bad for the guys I constantly see posting, about how minoxidil does this or that to their scalp. I guess I am lucky.


Really, if minoxidil works this well for me, and this haircut (short) works well , by not making the thinning areas obvious...I will continue to dye it black and use couvre now and then.

I should really take a picture. I am amazed. I just have this short, mat of hair on top, enough that really improves my look, gives some balance in color to my face, etc. I pick up my wife tomorrow at the airport and she has never seen me with my hair grown out (let alone black versus blond). She has seen a week's worth of my blond semi-horseshoe and has never had a problem with a shaved head..but I know she likes hair and when she sees me, she is going to flip.

She knows I use rogaine, and she won't care at all if augment this with couvre now and then. She agrees with me, if women can pluck their eyebrows, mustache and sometimes entire face, bleach their face, curl their hair, get perms, wax their pussy hairs, etc...its ok for men to do a couple things to stay youthful (hair !).

 

[HairlossTalk]

Bruce, please don't quote peoples entire post when you quote. Please specify what you are quoting. Their post is immediately above yours 99% of the time, so quoting the whole thing just makes the pages load longer and makes the database 100x bigger. Either just reply to them, or specify a few words/sentences they're quoting. Thank you.

I did not call you names or take pot shots at you.

You did take some pot shots that were emotionally motivated. The disagreement was about your statement that you know Propecia responders will continue to lose hair if minoxidil is not used. You didn't reply with a mature, adult, discussion of the facts. You branched off into pot shots like these: "You know it is funny, whenever you have an opinion, you make it into fact based on data." <-- unnecessary. "In my opinion, your bias towards propecia and against minoxidil is well documented" <--- unnecessary. I replied by asking you to stick to the issue at hand and not attack. You know those statements are only going to piss me off, so they were unnecessary, and accomplished absolutely nothing.

At the same time, you do reveal strong biases that simply are not open to any other train of thought.

What would you do if I came up to you and told you the earth is flat, when you had proof it was round? You would have a "strong bias based on the data and proof that exists that would simply not be open to any other train of thought". Wouldn't you? You know something because you know its true. I know where there are grey areas and where there are not grey areas. I also know what I believe and why I believe it. I have asked you for data showing me that I am wrong. If you can provide it, I will immediately change what I believe, and I will immediately agree with you, and not waver from it. Have you provided the data supporting your theory yet? Or are you just replying by taking pot shots? If the latter, what are you accomplishing, other than to insult? I have no desire to fight. I want to know where you got your ideas. Clearly, bryan, the most educated out of all of us, does not agree with your theory either. Just show me where I am wrong and I will modify my opinion. No emotion, no rudeness, no insulting. As you may have noticed, I have not replied to your insults with comments like "Well bruce i saw you go nuts in the womens section last month and had to wipe clean the moderator structure because I got about 30 emails from various women saying you were insulting them, so obviously you have a tendency to .. blahblahblah". I wouldn't have ever stooped to that level, but now that I have, I am sure you see my point about how off topic, and non-condusive to the discussion such comments are?

Since you own the game, you make the rules. That is clear too. Disagree with you at our own peril.

You are being way too dramatic. Relax a little. Stop the emotions and start the data. Thats all im asking for.

I prefaced my statements

Actually, no you didn't. You gave no preface. Your exact words were as follows:

"Minoxidil? Minoxidil??????????????"

Your second comment on the issue only said:

"The risk with your strategy is that during the year, one can lose follicles that will never regenerate hair again."

Still no preface. Even after three chances you still only said:

"This board has many posts from folks who have used propecia and have no results to show for it over a 12 month period. THEN they start minoxidil and have wasted many hair follicles in the bargain. I just thought our new friend would like to know that this was a risk."

Where is your preface that this is just an opinion based on zero evidence?

I do believe it is you with the attitude

More emotionally based insults. With none of the requested data to support your theory. This isn't a catfight bruce, so stop insulting. All I wanted was data backing your comment that minoxidil is mandatory at the start of a regimen.

you live in San Diego, get out more, emjoy the sun, and lighten up.

More insults. You made an entire post and managed to take more pot shots and completely avoid all the data requested. Nice job.

It never fails when I challenge someones opinion on here and ask them for the evidence, they have none, and I have a mountain of it, and they start insulting me, saying I think i know everything. It immediately becomes a 3rd grader insulting match. All I want is data to compare my data to. Thoughts to compare my thoughts to. If you want to fight like a little girl, please dont engage me in a debate. Fight like a man. A scientist man

First off, the propecia studies seem a little too good to be true. If it was as good as the studies indicate, than it would be a miracle drug that would have the popularity of v****.

I believe propecia is being used by a few million people right now. Meaning, several million people repeatedly buy it every month - ongoing. The numbers are out there. I would have to get them. I would love to talk all of them into coming here and posting that they're having results and total success, but they're out living life instead. They come to the site, learn about it, go on it, and accomplish their goals. If you base your opinion on the people who dont get results and stick around these types of forums, you're not going to have an accurate cross section of everyone on the treatment. This is why the data is so important. It forces the whole cross section to stick around and comment on their results. Not just the nonresponders. It should be noted that the FDA trial wasn't the only trial done on Propecia. There have been *several* and it performed consistently if not with higher percentages in all of them. I have three such studies on this site right now. Bryan knows more than all of us because bryan studies the data daily. I would trust him over myself, and over Bruce any day. Subjectivity is not going to give you accurate information to help you form an accurate opinion. Clinical data will. If it doesn't exist, then there's a gray area.

HairLossTalk.com, you claim that you base your opinions on data. However, I do observe that you use it only when it supports your arguments.

Please think about what you just typed. You're saying I use data to back up my arguments. Isn't that what you're supposed to do? I have been consistent and fair and asked Bruce to show me conflicting data so I can, as a mature adult, review it and see if I am wrong. How much more fair can I get? Instead of providing that data, he has posted insults and made character judgments. I still see no data, just childishness. I am 100% open minded to new data and Bryan can vouch for the fact that he has Several Times (!!!) corrected me when I am wrong, and I have every single time felt stupid, and immediately changed my view in the face of new data. Im a fair guy, but I cannot argue Data with Insults. I need to discuss data with data.

Firstly, you say that doctors know nuts. And you based it on your own experience, fine.... but also on what was mentioned on the forum....factual data???

Yep. I listed tons of actual numbers, statistics, etc of people who had died from doctor errors, hospital errors, doctor misdiagnosis, and doctor prescribing errors of prescription drugs as well as side effects. So yes, I did provide data to back up my claim. I even put it in huge letters. You may have missed the post. The title was from a statistics website, and they opted to put this at the top "Doctors are a leading cause of death in the united states". All the numbers were accurate and have been well documented. Want your own proof? Go to Google and type in

"Doctor errors" and "death" (with quotes). See what comes up.

I just did it and Im actually laughing. Look at what comes up for me:

Doctor Errors Cause 500,000 Preventable Drug Reactions Annually: Study
A study published in the March 5, 2003, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association ... more than one-quarter of all drug errors experienced by elderly patients are preventable, and that most are caused by doctors' own mistakes. A total of 1,523 adverse drug events were identified ... [nearly 30 percent] of the events were deemed preventable. Nearly 80% of the errors were caused by Doctors taking incorrect action (or taking no action at all).

As if these findings aren't alarming enough, the researchers also calculated what would happen if similar drug errors occurred nationwide. Projecting a figure of approximately 38 million patients, the researchers estimated that "more than 1.9 million adverse drug events due to doctor errors occur each year". There are in excess of 180,000 life-threatening or fatal adverse drug events per year, of which more than 50% may be preventable" and that "For a number of reasons, these estimates are likely to be conservative."

If you need more proof that doctors are a walking mess these days, read the other search results for that search phrase above.

Second, I notice you support some stuff outside the big 3 but totally condemn other type of possible "cures". Y? Facts? Data? or just personal opinion?

Actually, its due to a total lack of data that I don't support them. In the world of hair loss, proof is important. That is why the FDA actually went to the extent of creating a federal law that prohibits anyone from claiming they can grow hair unless they have proof. Seems like the whole scientific community thinks this way but I have to convince my users of it daily

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

Getting back on topic:

I think the main question is "Are you happy to keep what you have today or do you honestly desperately genuinely need to regrow new hair back?"

If the answer to the question is you're a new thinner, have only seen a loss of density or minor thinning, then yes, Propecia alone plus Nizoral ... give it a go. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

If the answer is you've been losing hair for a few years, have lost a good amount of density and seen some noticeable receding, then absolutley positively - use both Propecia and Rogaine up front, with Nizoral.

There is no bias, except towards thoughtfully evaluating what we actually *do* know about these treatments, and doing an assessment of your own hair.

If data becomes available to support the theory that minoxidil needs to be used up front, even for brand new thinners, I will immediately modify my advice to my users.

Thats about as fair as a guy can get.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

Aiye Carumba!

 

[Guest]

Well, my advice stands. If it were me, I would start on the Big Three and stay on it, assuming propecia is tolerated well. If not, drop propecia and find a nice topical DHT agent, ie spironolactone etc.

Good luck!

 

[ShedMaster]

I wish I didn't have to take minoxidil every day to have regrowth. propecia alone would be much easier.

 

[jblig]

If the answer to the question is you're a new thinner, have only seen a loss of density or minor thinning, then yes, Propecia alone plus Nizoral ... give it a go. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

If the answer is you've been losing hair for a few years, have lost a good amount of density and seen some noticeable receding, then absolutley positively - use both Propecia and Rogaine up front, with Nizoral.HairLossTalk.com

So what if my hair went to complete sh*t while on propecia i.e. My temporal region thinned quickly.....should I hold out and see if propecia can bring these back or start the minoxidil....I have been using propecia and nizoral for about 6 mos....thanks HairLossTalk.com.......

 

[Guest]

If the answer to the question is you're a new thinner, have only seen a loss of density or minor thinning, then yes, Propecia alone plus Nizoral ... give it a go. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

If the answer is you've been losing hair for a few years, have lost a good amount of density and seen some noticeable receding, then absolutley positively - use both Propecia and Rogaine up front, with Nizoral.HairLossTalk.com

So what if my hair went to complete sh*t while on propecia i.e. My temporal region thinned quickly.....should I hold out and see if propecia can bring these back or start the minoxidil....I have been using propecia and nizoral for about 6 mos....thanks HairLossTalk.com.......

I wouldn't wait and watch my hair go down the drain. I would start minoxidil right now.

 

[Bob_Marley]

Jblig,

NO maybe you should not wait. BUt fat F*cking chance minoxidil is going do SH*t for you anyway. Especially on the temples. You would waste time, money and have greasy hair for 6 months before quitting minoxidil. I guarantee.