Questions about folligen/minoxidil...

[Bismarck]

socks, I have no idea what you mean by "minoxidil-dependent". If you take Finasteride, your hair is Finasteride-dependent !?!

You think that after quitting minoxidil your hair becomes worse than you haven't used it at all. I haven't seen any evidence of this yet. This could theoretically also happen after any DHT-minimizing treatment when the follicle becomes more sensitive to DHT (receptor upregulation or so).

You argue that one shouldn't use minoxidil because you will still have to use it when a more effective hairloss drug is released. That's the reason I use minoxidil! You won't have much regrowth even when you get castrated this holds in my opinion especially for the bitemporal area. With minoxidil you will at least be able to keep at least some vellus hairs alive. Otherwise the follicle dies, called apoptosis or so, (FolliclesDoDie) and no hairloss drug in the world will ever be able to grow anything at that place.
Intuitively, I agree with you that "minoxidil-hairs" are "artificially" kept alive ... but they are alive.

My argument remains unchanged. Minoxidil is not an amazing hair regrowth product.

Do you know a better one?

 

[socks]

socks, I have no idea what you mean by "minoxidil-dependent". If you take Finasteride, your hair is Finasteride-dependent !?!

There is a slight difference. Your hair is "dependent" on the DHT reduction action of the Finasteride but not the chemical compound itself. With minoxidil your hair is actually dependent on the chemical compound.

Even if you took a magical pill that took away ALL DHT, if you stop minoxidil you will still shed.

You think that after quitting minoxidil your hair becomes worse than you haven't used it at all. I haven't seen any evidence of this yet.

That is a little tricky

Hair that isnt being effected by the minoxidil will obviously stay the same if you were to stop treatment. The hair that is dependent on minoxidil will likely shed.

Weather or not the hair will come back the same (or even at all) varies from person to person I have talked to.

This could theoretically also happen after any DHT-minimizing treatment when the follicle becomes more sensitive to DHT (receptor upregulation or so).

That is true. Once on a DHT minimizing treatment you obviously wouldnt want to stop as there could be negative consequences.

The difference as I see it though is that you can substitute **any** effective DHT minimizing compound for the next.

With minoxidil there is no guarantee that a future growth stimulate will be able to sub in for minoxidil dependent hair.

You argue that one shouldn't use minoxidil because you will still have to use it when a more effective hairloss drug is released. That's the reason I use minoxidil!

My main argument is to use minoxidil as a last resort. In my opinion I feel as though a regimen starting with a internal and external DHT blocker along side anti-inflammatory compounds like Nizoral and Folligen is the best way to start **if** you already have a decent head of hair (such as Vampa).

You won't have much regrowth even when you get castrated this holds in my opinion especially for the bitemporal area. With minoxidil you will at least be able to keep at least some vellus hairs alive. Otherwise the follicle dies, called apoptosis or so, (FolliclesDoDie) and no hairloss drug in the world will ever be able to grow anything at that place.

You may be able to keep some vellus hairs alive on minoxidil... But what is the point? Even if we assume there is a more effective regrowth agent in the future better then minoxidil that can sub in for minoxidil dependent hair all you have to grow is scattered vellus hairs surrounds by barren dead follicles.

I dont know how cosmetically pleasing that would be. That is assuming that minoxidil dependent hairs can EVEN cross over to the next regrowth drug and not just shed and die.


I do think minoxidil has a place. I'm not saying it is never useful. I just feel as though young guys like Vampa are better off trying a solid routine (internal/external DHT blockers with anti-inflammatory compounds like Nizoral and Folligen) without minoxidil for the first year and see where they are.

Why take a risk getting your hair hooked on minoxidil when you dont really need it? And lets not forget, results from minoxidil are almost NEVER amazing.... They usually arent even good!!

If your hair is a mess and rapidly moving to a NW7 then yeah, I say go for the minoxidil and try to save as much hair as you can as you got nothing to loose. However, guys like Vampa who look like a NW2 might end up regretting it.


I was heading rapidly towards a NW2 6months ago and now I'm back to NW0 without using minoxidil at all in my routine. None of my hairs are dependent on minoxidil and that leaves my scalp nice and virgin for any future regrowth agents if I so need them without risking a minoxidil shed.

I just think my approach is, "play it safe if you're in good shape".

I dunno, does that make any sense to you guys?

 

[Bryan]

I think I made it abundantly clear that I personally would not want to be dependent on ONE exact compound of drug.

Oh, with about a 99% certainty, I'd say: If a person switches to an even better regrowth agent, then he'll probably get even better regrowth. If the new drug doesn't work well for a particular individual for whatever reason, then that person can always just go back to regular minoxidil.

Oh I dont think anyone can make such a bold statement. There is no way of knowing if a newer and improved compound could maintain hair that is minoxidil dependent. There is no way of knowing if a future growth compound could recover hair lost from minoxidil shed resulting from stopping minoxidil treatment.

Socks, my friend!! You've just said the MAGIC WORDS! Now I finally understand where you're coming from with all this! You've been taking for granted all this time that the hairloss associated with minoxidil withdrawal is PERMANENT, right?? NOW I understand why you've been so upset at the idea of sort of being "stuck" with one particular drug!

I've assumed all this time that you understood my own position on this issue, because I've been talking about it for a long time on all the hairloss sites; God, I must have posted the relevant graphs and charts at least 50 different times! My position is this: the available evidence shows that you DO take a hit in both haircounts and hairweights immediately after discontinuing topical minoxidil, on average, but it's only a TEMPORARY condition. After about six months or so, you get back to where you'd have been if you had never taken it in the first place (again, on average). I couldn't understand why you were making such a big deal out of possibly having to quit minoxidil at a later date! :wink:

Bryan PLEASE!!! Minoxidil regrowth is not amazing for most men!!! Those pics were not amazing!!! It was a low-resolution photo in B&W!!!! I would bet money that "new" hair would be completely see through under any normal light!!!

I think we better just drop the issue of those pics. You seem to be in a state of denial over them.

My argument remains unchanged. Minoxidil is not an amazing hair regrowth product. I feel most men (especially young men) will be unhappy with the results.

Actually, I tend to agree with you. But it's about the best single regrowth agent we've got, mediocre as it is. However, some guys are good responders. A lucky few are even EXCELLENT responders, like the guy in those pics I showed you. For guys who are willing to put up with the hassle of applying a topical every day, I think it's perfectly reasonable to at least give it a shot for a few months, just to FIND OUT if they're good responders to it. If they don't feel their results are worth the trouble and expense, they can simply drop it. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained", as the saying goes.

I do not like the idea of being dependent of a specific type of compound for life. I like the flexibility of being able to change compounds as newer products become available without having to worry about some huge shed where my hair may or may not regrow!!!

I hope you now understand that in my view, that's not really a valid concern. I know you probably won't be able to accept that yourself, but I'm just telling you what the available scientific evidence shows.

Bryan

 

[socks]

Socks, my friend!! You've just said the MAGIC WORDS! Now I finally understand where you're coming from with all this! You've been taking for granted all this time that the hairloss associated with minoxidil withdrawal is PERMANENT, right?? NOW I understand why you've been so upset at the idea of sort of being "stuck" with one particular drug!

Yes, I would say my tentative position on the subject is that the shed from minoxidil withdrawal may lead to some permanent hair loss consequences.

I've assumed all this time that you understood my own position on this issue, because I've been talking about it for a long time on all the hairloss sites

Well, I am somewhat of a newbie when it comes to these hairloss forums

My position is this: the available evidence shows that you DO take a hit in both haircounts and hairweights immediately after discontinuing topical minoxidil, on average, but it's only a TEMPORARY condition. After about six months or so, you get back to where you'd have been if you had never taken it in the first place (again, on average).

On average, I would agree. The basic function as I understand it is that:

(a person taking **only** minoxidil and no internal or external DHT blockers)

Person x applies minoxidil. DHT effected hair is then stimulated to grow thicker and stay in the anogen phase longer. Nevertheless, DHT is still affecting the hair and the hair continues to atrophy. When minoxidil is discontinued the hair effected by minoxidil sheds. The hair then regrows in the state it would be if you never used minoxidil.

Would I be correct, in your opinion, in assuming the above?


The problem for me is that this is only, as you put it, "on average". There are some men who have reported that their hair does not grow back after discontinuing minoxidil. Albeit the % of men who experience this may be small, it is a risk!

But it's about the best single regrowth agent we've got, mediocre as it is. However, some guys are good responders. A lucky few are even EXCELLENT responders, like the guy in those pics I showed you.

I would say some guys are responders (meaning they get ANY cosmetic hair growth), a lucky few are good responders, and a very rare breed may get excellent results.

That is what "seal the deal" for me Bryan. It is a mediocre hair regrowth drug that carries with it certain risks. The chances of getting the kind of regrowth that a lot of young guys like Vampa want are almost nil.

One has to face the possibility of a shed in the beginning (which can take 6 months to recover from), another shed if you stop (6 more months by your account), and then SEVERAL more months for the hair that is shed to catch up with the hair that didnt.

On top of that some guys have claimed they never recover from the initial shed, the withdrawal shed, or both!

I hope you now understand that in my view, that's not really a valid concern. I know you probably won't be able to accept that yourself, but I'm just telling you what the available scientific evidence shows.

I do understand where you're coming from Bryan. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

1. hassle
2. greasy
3. life-long commitment to one specific compound to maintain results
4. sheds
5. long recovery from sheds
6. possible permanent loss (albeit a small one)
7. mediocre regrowth AT BEST for some, good for a few, excellent results rare.
8. since it isnt a DHT blocker you arent maintaining anything! Therefore you can elect to use it anytime in your treatment for benefit. Such as after 1yrs on the internal/external DHT blockers and anti-inflammatory compounds (AKA you wont loose ground by not starting with minoxidil in most situations).


That where I'm coming from anyhow. If a guy was in really bad shape I would agree, go with the minoxidil off the bat. If you gave the internal/external DHT blockers and anti-inflammatory compounds a year and still arent happy then I say go for the minoxidil.

I just hesitate to push it on young newbies who might not completely understand the complexities of the options available.

As an average Joe I too was at first suckered into thinking, "oh geeze, all I have to do is put this on my head 2x a day and BAM! I get my hair back and keep what I have!".

In reality it made my hair a mess, was a real pain in the ***, gave me a HUGE shed (I never got a shed from ANY of the other products I EVER used for any medical condition in my life!), resulted in me having to shave my head so the density could even out, and got me nowhere!

I've been on the Finasteride for 7 or 8 months, zix w/ azelaic acid and Nizoral 2% for a little over a month and my results have been very VERY good. My temples are back, my scalp isnt sensitive, my hair isnt shedding when I wash/comb/run hand through, and my routine is simple, easy, and doesnt negatively effect my hair one single bit.

So when a young guy like Vampa who has good hair left asks for some advice my advice is to see where the internal/external DHT blockers and anti-inflammatory compounds gets you in a year and then take it from there




On another subject, I want to thank you for the article on the RU58841a. It was very interesting. Has this compound been tried in human trials? It sounds like a very potent topical anti-androgen.

 

[Bryan]

My position is this: the available evidence shows that you DO take a hit in both haircounts and hairweights immediately after discontinuing topical minoxidil, on average, but it's only a TEMPORARY condition. After about six months or so, you get back to where you'd have been if you had never taken it in the first place (again, on average).

On average, I would agree. The basic function as I understand it is that:

(a person taking **only** minoxidil and no internal or external DHT blockers)

Person x applies minoxidil. DHT effected hair is then stimulated to grow thicker and stay in the anogen phase longer. Nevertheless, DHT is still affecting the hair and the hair continues to atrophy. When minoxidil is discontinued the hair effected by minoxidil sheds. The hair then regrows in the state it would be if you never used minoxidil.

Would I be correct, in your opinion, in assuming the above?

Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

The problem for me is that this is only, as you put it, "on average". There are some men who have reported that their hair does not grow back after discontinuing minoxidil. Albeit the % of men who experience this may be small, it is a risk!

I included the words "on average" mainly because I try to be very cautious in what I say, and it was more of a simple disclaimer than anything else!

Since those are the AVERAGE results, that suggests that for every person who ultimately LOSES hair after withdrawal (in the sense that you know I mean), there must be some other guy who actually ended up with MORE hair than he should have, which seems a priori rather unlikely. Because of that consideration, I rather doubt that there's much of a risk of having an untoward loss of hair from minoxidil withdrawal (in the sense that you know I mean).

As for the guys who have complained about their hair not growing back after minoxidil withdrawal:

1) Individuals are frequently inaccurate when it comes to judging their own hair gains/losses. Subject self-assessment in clinical trials demonstrates that. I tend not to fully trust self-assessment. That's why I strongly recommend that everyone keep a running photographic record of their own progress (or lack of it). I trust rock-hard clinical DATA, like what was published by Vera Price in that topical minoxidil study which examined the effects of topical minoxidil cessation.

2) Those guys may still not fully understand that they can't expect their hair to go back to EXACTLY the way it was when they first started minoxidil years ago; it will only get back to the way that it WOULD HAVE BEEN, had they never used minoxidil at all. There would _still_ probably be further loss, just as a result of the normal balding process.

But it's about the best single regrowth agent we've got, mediocre as it is. However, some guys are good responders. A lucky few are even EXCELLENT responders, like the guy in those pics I showed you.

One has to face the possibility of a shed in the beginning (which can take 6 months to recover from), another shed if you stop (6 more months by your account), and then SEVERAL more months for the hair that is shed to catch up with the hair that didnt.

Let's be clear about this: the 6 month period I quoted INCLUDES the shed immediately after cessation of minoxidil, followed by the rapid approach back to nearly the same level as the placebo users. BTW, I was a little uncertain about your earlier statement: you HAVE or you HAVEN'T seen the pair of graphs to which I referred in my previous post? The ones showing that the hairloss effect from minoxidil withdrawal is apparently only temporary?

On top of that some guys have claimed they never recover from the initial shed, the withdrawal shed, or both!

I tend to doubt the accuracy of what they say. See my points (1) and (2) above.

I do understand where you're coming from Bryan. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

1. hassle
2. greasy
3. life-long commitment to one specific compound to maintain results
4. sheds
5. long recovery from sheds
6. possible permanent loss (albeit a small one)
7. mediocre regrowth AT BEST for some, good for a few, excellent results rare.
8. since it isnt a DHT blocker you arent maintaining anything! Therefore you can elect to use it anytime in your treatment for benefit. Such as after 1yrs on the internal/external DHT blockers and anti-inflammatory compounds (AKA you wont loose ground by not starting with minoxidil in most situations).

That where I'm coming from anyhow. If a guy was in really bad shape I would agree, go with the minoxidil off the bat. If you gave the internal/external DHT blockers and anti-inflammatory compounds a year and still arent happy then I say go for the minoxidil.

Amazingly, I think we're now pretty much in agreement, although I'm still somewhat troubled by the wording of #3 above! :lol:

In reality it made my hair a mess, was a real pain in the ***, gave me a HUGE shed (I never got a shed from ANY of the other products I EVER used for any medical condition in my life!), resulted in me having to shave my head so the density could even out, and got me nowhere!

Yikes! It really does sound like you had a bad experience with topical minoxidil! But like I say to users of ANY product who had bad results (including, for example, dutasteride users who claim that it "destroyed their hairline"), you should be cautious about what you recommend to others. I think it's fine to tell others about your own miserable results with some product or regimen, but you should be careful about trying to scare them away from something that might work just fine for them! I personally pay FAR more attention to the results of clinical trials than I do to personal anecdotes.

So when a young guy like Vampa who has good hair left asks for some advice my advice is to see where the internal/external DHT blockers and anti-inflammatory compounds gets you in a year and then take it from there

I can live with that!

On another subject, I want to thank you for the article on the RU58841a. It was very interesting. Has this compound been tried in human trials? It sounds like a very potent topical anti-androgen.

There have been no PUBLISHED human trials, but there almost certainly has been private "in-house" human testing. In fact, the word is that a certain French company is now developing it as a drug for human use.

It's a _fascinating_ substance. I have a few grams of it myself, which a fellow on another hairloss site was kind enough to send me. I plan on using it for some rudimentary testing of my own!

Bryan

 

[socks]

BTW, I was a little uncertain about your earlier statement: you HAVE or you HAVEN'T seen the pair of graphs to which I referred in my previous post? The ones showing that the hairloss effect from minoxidil withdrawal is apparently only temporary?

I have not seen the graphs you are referring to above. I would be interested in seeing such data.

socks wrote:
I do understand where you're coming from Bryan. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

1. hassle
2. greasy
3. life-long commitment to one specific compound to maintain results
4. sheds
5. long recovery from sheds
6. possible permanent loss (albeit a small one)
7. mediocre regrowth AT BEST for some, good for a few, excellent results rare.
8. since it isnt a DHT blocker you arent maintaining anything! Therefore you can elect to use it anytime in your treatment for benefit. Such as after 1yrs on the internal/external DHT blockers and anti-inflammatory compounds (AKA you wont loose ground by not starting with minoxidil in most situations).

That where I'm coming from anyhow. If a guy was in really bad shape I would agree, go with the minoxidil off the bat. If you gave the internal/external DHT blockers and anti-inflammatory compounds a year and still arent happy then I say go for the minoxidil.


Amazingly, I think we're now pretty much in agreement, although I'm still somewhat troubled by the wording of #3 above!

I think my wording on #3 is what lead to this interesting conversation between you and I

I now see why.

Having read the information you provided here in this post I no longer feel that point #3 is relevant either.

It does indeed seem that "withdrawal" from the compound minoxidil is not as negative as I originally thought. That is good!!!

I still dont feel minoxidil is the best way to go in treatment of male pattern baldness in a lot of young guys for the above mentioned reasons (1-8 excluding #3).

However, reason #3 was a huge concern of mine so my feelings in regard to minoxidil has been much improved.

I think it's fine to tell others about your own miserable results with some product or regimen, but you should be careful about trying to scare them away from something that might work just fine for them! I personally pay FAR more attention to the results of clinical trials than I do to personal anecdotes.

That is true. My position at this point would to simply recommend they try a internal/external DHT blocker first with anti-inflammatory compounds and see where they are in a year. If they wish to choose minoxidil I now feel the best approach would be to report the pros (as stated by you) and the cons (my numbered list excluding #3) and let the user make their own assessment from there.

There have been no PUBLISHED human trials, but there almost certainly has been private "in-house" human testing. In fact, the word is that a certain French company is now developing it as a drug for human use.

It's a _fascinating_ substance. I have a few grams of it myself, which a fellow on another hairloss site was kind enough to send me. I plan on using it for some rudimentary testing of my own!

That is very interesting indeed!

I've been reading some archived HairlossTalk Newsletters in regard to new hairloss drugs and research. It seems the lack of progress has a lot to do with the seemingly lack of profitability of such drugs (apparently poor Merek only made 100mil from their Finasteride drug instead of 500mil which they projected).

Without getting into each point made it seems to me that new research into hairloss preventive compounds is going to be shortcoming. Therefore it is uplifting to know there are some already known compounds in the woodwork that have some real potential.

I'm especially interested in topical anti-andogens as I feel that would be the preferred choice for most men as it helps reduce the possibility of side-effects such as sexual dysfunction (which I feel is one of Merek's biggest obstacle in pushing its Finasteride to more men suffering from male pattern baldness).

Anyhow, keep us updated on anything you find Bryan! I would be very interested in any insight you gain on RU58841a.

 

[Bryan]

BTW, I was a little uncertain about your earlier statement: you HAVE or you HAVEN'T seen the pair of graphs to which I referred in my previous post? The ones showing that the hairloss effect from minoxidil withdrawal is apparently only temporary?

I have not seen the graphs you are referring to above. I would be interested in seeing such data.

Ok, here's a scan of those two graphs (it's only a 32k download):

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/quitting-minoxidil.htm

Those are from "Changes in hair weight and hair count in men with androgenetic alopecia, after application of 5% and 2% topical minoxidil, placebo, or no treatment", Price et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 1999;41:717-21. To the best of my knowledge, that's the only topical minoxidil study which continued to examine haircounts and hairweights for a significant period of time after cessation of treatment (24 weeks, in this case).

Notice that treatment was stopped at 96 weeks (indicated by the vertical line at that point). Afterwards, there was a dramatic and precipitous drop in results which reached rock-bottom 12 weeks later (for haircounts). But after that period and for the NEXT 12 weeks, things turned around and were rapidly approaching the same level as the placebo users!

That's the basis of my belief that the negative effects of minoxidil withdrawal are only a temporary phenomenon. After a while (a little over six months), things get back to normal.

Bryan

 

[socks]

Very interesting info Bryan!

I did have a question.

The right hair count graft showed an increase in the number of hair at the end of the study from where it started yet a decrease in hair weight. I would expected both to be lower. Why?

On a different note, I find it interesting how with the 5% minoxidil there seems to be an initial surge in both hair counts and hair weight. However as the study progress it seems the 5% and 2% became very similar.

 

[Bryan]

The right hair count graft showed an increase in the number of hair at the end of the study from where it started yet a decrease in hair weight. I would expected both to be lower. Why?

You're referring to the placebo and untreated groups, of course!

So-called "placebo-effects" have occurred before in some hairloss studies, and they've always generated discussion and controversy. Dr. Proctor has said for a long time that they're apparently caused by the propylene glycol that still remains even in placebo solutions; in other words, even propylene glycol has mild hair-growth stimulating effects. However, that doesn't explain the results in THIS particular study, because even the group that didn't even use ANY kind of solution at all (the "untreated" group) had higher haircounts than baseline! Here's the only comment that Dr. Price makes about that in the "Discussion" section of the study: "A 'placebo effect' appears to occur more markedly for number counts than for weights, for reasons at present unexplained."

On a different note, I find it interesting how with the 5% minoxidil there seems to be an initial surge in both hair counts and hair weight. However as the study progress it seems the 5% and 2% became very similar.

Yes, it IS interesting. Over the years, I've always been quick to jump on people who say things like "Don't waste your time with 2% minoxidil. It's junk. It won't help you at all. Use only 5% minoxidil!" There's not THAT much difference between the two in the long-run, so I think it's perfectly reasonable to use only a 2% solution. And that doesn't even take into account that simply increasing the DOSE of a 2% solution will probably make-up the rest of the difference! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Cassin]

Bryan

This is somewhat off course but.........

I have never understood why minoxidil 5% has such a high % of PPG. I have never understood why they would make such a cosmetically undesirable formula. What are your thoughts on this? I believe you have stated that you do not agree with Dr Lees opinion it is for extended shelf life.

 

[Bryan]

I have never understood why minoxidil 5% has such a high % of PPG. I have never understood why they would make such a cosmetically undesirable formula. What are your thoughts on this?

Oh, they probably have plenty of PPG in there to make sure that the minoxidil stays dissolved for long periods of time! For instance, even if a user should happen to leave a bottle sitting around for a long time with the cap off and some of the alcohol and water evaporates, it won't cause a major problem.

On the other hand, since Dr. Lee's whole purpose is to make a more cosmetically acceptable version, he has to cut it a little closer! :wink: He has to have less PPG and more alcohol, but with a certain RISK of minoxidil starting to drop out of solution under certain adverse conditions (witness the "crystallization" problems some have had with his 15% version of Xandrox).

According to the Merck Index, minoxidil dissolves in pure ethanol to a maximum of about 2.9%, and in pure propylene glycol to about 7.5%

I believe you have stated that you do not agree with Dr Lees opinion it is for extended shelf life.

Well, we've talked about that before, and _apparently_ what he meant by "shelf life" is the ability to stay in solution for a long time without that crystallization problem. In that case, I agree with him.

Bryan

 

[Cassin]

Thanks Bryan!

That makes perfect sense.

 

[socks]

You're referring to the placebo and untreated groups, of course!

Indeed. Sorry for not stating that. My post here was one of my last before hitting the sack Was dead tired and my mind started to make "assumptions"!

However, that doesn't explain the results in THIS particular study, because even the group that didn't even use ANY kind of solution at all (the "untreated" group) had higher haircounts than baseline! Here's the only comment that Dr. Price makes about that in the "Discussion" section of the study: "A 'placebo effect' appears to occur more markedly for number counts than for weights, for reasons at present unexplained."

I think the next logical question would be: Is a reduction of hair weight and increase in hair count a natural phenomenon of balding men OR is it solely linked to this study in some way?

Yes, it IS interesting. Over the years, I've always been quick to jump on people who say things like "Don't waste your time with 2% minoxidil. It's junk. It won't help you at all. Use only 5% minoxidil!" There's not THAT much difference between the two in the long run, so I think it's perfectly reasonable to use only a 2% solution. And that doesn't even take into account that simply increasing the DOSE of a 2% solution will probably make-up the rest of the difference!

Is there any data on starting with minoxidil 5% then switching to the 2% to maintain? That would seem to yield the best of both worlds.

Furthermore, what about Dr. Lee higher concentration minoxidil products. Are there any studies done on them in relation to increase long-term hair weight and count over minoxidil 2%?

 

[absmon]

A few months ago, I sent an email to Dr. Lee to ask the length of time minoxidil would induce hair growth. His reply was between 15 and 24 months. If that is the case, I am well on my way way to regrowing a full head of hair. However, once the regrowing phase (say 20 months) has lapsed, will the hair that I have grown be sustained as long as I use minoxidil or will minoxidl start to lose its efficacy after a certain period of time when trhings start to reverse?

As for me, I have been on minoxidl since December 2003, I have had fantastic thickening and the temple areas are filling in. At the current rate of progress, the temporal areas may completely fill in within months. However, during this time, I have not used any DHT inhibitors apart from nizarol. Do you guys think I will see even better results if I were to add spironolactone or should I leave it as it is considering that I am achieving great results already. Theoritically, I would be better off with something like spironolactone since DHT is supposedly resonsiblre for hair minituarisation, wouldn't I?

 

[Bismarck]

A few months ago, I sent an email to Dr. Lee to ask the length of time minoxidil would induce hair growth. His reply was between 15 and 24 months. If that is the case, I am well on my way way to regrowing a full head of hair. However, once the regrowing phase (say 20 months) has lapsed, will the hair that I have grown be sustained as long as I use minoxidil or will minoxidl start to lose its efficacy after a certain period of time when trhings start to reverse?

As for me, I have been on minoxidl since December 2003, I have had fantastic thickening and the temple areas are filling in. At the current rate of progress, the temporal areas may completely fill in within months. However, during this time, I have not used any DHT inhibitors apart from nizarol. Do you guys think I will see even better results if I were to add spironolactone or should I leave it as it is considering that I am achieving great results already. Theoritically, I would be better off with something like spironolactone since DHT is supposedly resonsiblre for hair minituarisation, wouldn't I?

You will notice a "peak of regrowth" in the first 12 months or and after that you are likely to loose some of regrown hairs. But you are likely to have more hairs than before beginning of the treatment even after a couple of years. I guess this is especially true for you since you seem to be a good responder. Bryan has posted a very nice curve of hair counts under minoxidil but I can't find it right now.
Adding anything against DHT is always good since it the main reason for follicle miniaturisation. Your results are very likely to improve.

 

[NorwoodClimber]

I've kinda been wondering the same thing that absmon asked.

How long does minoxidil actually benefit your hair's cosmetic appearence? I've heard of minoxidil tolerance but I've also heard someone say that Dr. Lee himself has been using the stuff for 15 years! (I'm not sure if that's true)

 

[Bismarck]

This one should be worth reading:
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=8785&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

[absmon]

That's a very interesting thread Bismarck. So, what you guys are saying is that if I add a DHT inhibitor, I will have a greater hair count because DHT will keep the hairs that are about to go into resting phase into telogen (it may be anagen, I can't remember the exact terminology) phase. This together with the regrown hairs will give me greater hair count than if I am not using a DHT inhibitor.

Secondly, its a bit disheartening to hear that if I achieve a completely full head of hair it will only be for a few years. But, I guess I will have the funds available then to get hair transplants to sustain the full head of hair look. Anyway, we may by then have something available in the market that enables people to keep all their regrown hairs without risk of sheds and reversal. Also the multi-follicular develpoment will in a few years be nearing the stage of being commercially available, albeit perhaps at very dear price. I have also heard reports that people have been able to maintain for 10 years or so on minoxidl and DHT inhibitors alone.

As for minoxidil, my belief is that a higher concentration will alwayd induce hair growth even after reaching a peak with 5% in the first 2 years because follicules, though minituarize, never die.

 

[Bismarck]

That's a very interesting thread Bismarck. So, what you guys are saying is that if I add a DHT inhibitor, I will have a greater hair count because DHT will keep the hairs that are about to go into resting phase into telogen (it may be anagen, I can't remember the exact terminology) phase. This together with the regrown hairs will give me greater hair count than if I am not using a DHT inhibitor.

Simply speaking, DHT kills your hair follicles. If you use a DHT-inhibitor like Propecia you'll have less DHT and you will prevent the follicles from miniaturisation. On the other hand you force them to regrow with the minoxidil. So these two treatments work synergetically and produce quite good results in combination.

Secondly, its a bit disheartening to hear that if I achieve a completely full head of hair it will only be for a few years. But, I guess I will have the funds available then to get hair transplants to sustain the full head of hair look. Anyway, we may by then have something available in the market that enables people to keep all their regrown hairs without risk of sheds and reversal. Also the multi-follicular develpoment will in a few years be nearing the stage of being commercially available, albeit perhaps at very dear price. I have also heard reports that people have been able to maintain for 10 years or so on minoxidl and DHT inhibitors alone.

Note that you will always have more hairs than if you would do nothing. Maybe a very effective treatment will be available in the future so that it is clever to keep as much follicles alive as possible since if the follicles are "dead" they can't be reactivated by any treatment. Follicle multiplication will be very expensive I think...

As for minoxidil, my belief is that a higher concentration will alwayd induce hair growth even after reaching a peak with 5% in the first 2 years because follicules, though minituarize, never die.

I think they do die after some time... :cry:

bis

 

[NorwoodClimber]

Bismarck

I noticed you dropped 5% minoxidil from your regimen. How come?