Realistic Expectations For Art Tsuji And Riken

[ThanksGramps]

Can anyone read Japanese? A new article came out about Tsuji/Riken's hair primordiums project. http://www.organ-technol.co.jp/uploads/2017/10/etRouge-2017-No.14_nikkeiBP.pdf

I found that on Organ Technologies' website: http://www.organ-technol.co.jp/

 

[Jonnyyy]

People don't fully appreciate what Tsuji is trying to do. They are attempting to clone complex organs. No one has ever done that before, and if they do, it will herald a new era in medicine, not just aesthetics. The bio-engineering challenges are colossal, and while I hope they succeed (it will basically represent the first step towards human immortality), I really doubt they will.

Follica is our best hope for a new protocol that grows hair. It will be available by 2020-2021, and possibly sooner. This isn't an Intercytex or Aderans situation (which I remember all too well) - Follica is bringing something to market. I bet they could release something tomorrow if they were willing to sell dermabrasion + Monoxidil, but it seems as if they are choosing to test other additives.

After that, Replicel is our next-best hope, but they are a nano-cap scale company with almost no capital at all, and significantly dependent on partnerships - existing and future - to continue their research. They are 5+ years out, unless Shiseido surprises (which I doubt). That being said, it's promising, but many more years of study awaits.

Why do you doubt Tsuji will fail? Do you believe that our technology just isn't there yet?

 

[dermrafok]

More or less. I'm not a scientist, so I can't critique their technique. But I put a lot of faith in the market, media, and scientific community's ability to sniff-out winners, and there just isn't any heat on them - no one talks about them except the forums. Further, they aren't making the right noises from a marketing perspective. Contrast that with Follica, which has already begun partnering with Derms, designed their packaging, and fired up their social media.

Tsuji/Riken and others can be associated with the most prestigious hair loss surgeons. Time to time. Be patient.

 

[Jonnyyy]

More or less. I'm not a scientist, so I can't critique their technique. But I put a lot of faith in the market, media, and scientific community's ability to sniff-out winners, and there just isn't any heat on them - no one talks about them except the forums. Further, they aren't making the right noises from a marketing perspective. Contrast that with Follica, which has already begun partnering with Derms, designed their packaging, and fired up their social media.

Ahh ok I see your point, let's get off topic real quick, I don't know much about follica but aren't people doing the same thing at home, im guessing it'll just be more professional and more accurate on regaining hair?

 

[Omega2327]

More or less. I'm not a scientist, so I can't critique their technique. But I put a lot of faith in the market, media, and scientific community's ability to sniff-out winners, and there just isn't any heat on them - no one talks about them except the forums. Further, they aren't making the right noises from a marketing perspective. Contrast that with Follica, which has already begun partnering with Derms, designed their packaging, and fired up their social media.

I completely think that you have it backwards... follica is a privately funded startup that will post whatever news they can to keep their investors happy. They've already delayed multiple times and while some of their technology might provide benefit, you cannot even BEGIN to compare it to Tsuji in terms of quality. Follica at best will provide slight density increase (25 terminal hairs per square inch). It will not create a new hairline or anything so people should be realistic with their expectations. It's basically dermarolling and minoxidil with some added benefit. Nothing seriously groundbreaking here. RIKEN on the other hand is funded by the Japanese government and is comprised of some of the best scientists in the world. They've already succeeded in all the bio-engineering challenges they've faced in mice and now will put their technologies to the test with humans. And they believe it will work. They don't have the financial pressure of trying to paint a rosy picture of their progesss in order to get more funding and their technologies would give a bald man density of a 16 year old with a great hairline.

Yes, Tsuji will be extremely expensive and only available in Japan in the first few years, but that's besides the point. People can start saving now if they are determined enough (as I am).

Tsuji all the f*****g way.

 

[Omega2327]

In 2004 all the crap was still in pre-clinicals or phase 1 so there is a measurable difference.

Tsuji getting from pre clinicals to market release in 3 years is probably a bit unrealistic. They still have engineering problems to solve. Complicated problems always seem simpler going in and us engineers are optimists. It is really easy to under scope these kinds of problems.

I'm curious, what specific engineering problems are you talking about?

 

[ManinBlack]

.

 

[Omega2327]

.

My god, thank you for digging that up. Exhibit A.

 

[cocona]

I'm curious, what specific engineering problems are you talking about?

I don't really follow Tsuji a lot but...

With regards to Tsuji:
Culturing and induction of Mesenchymal(dp) and Epithelial stem cells is what I am most familiar with. I understand that the Dp cell induction has at least been partially resolved however. It is also my understanding that Kyocera will be developing a robot type armed thingy which will be able to perform the transplantation. This in itself is an entirely different set of engineering challenges. This would probably not be a requirement to get the product to the customer however unless some big wig made it one. I have heard no information on progress of such a robot.

With regards to my own work:
I'm a software engineer and I work in space control systems. Underscoping problems is consistently an issue for me and the engineers I work with. (Software engineers, mechanical engineers, Electrical engineers and Systems engineers)

More generally:
There is a difference between being able to do something in a research setting and having the chemical engineering hashed out and optimized to do it on a large scale. Tons of follicles on tons of people. It is normal for such challenges toi arise. I understand that Tsuji has at least partially hashed out these protocols in some papers of his.

Other stuff:
I understand you have a low opinion of Follica however I have more 'Faith' in them if you would call it that because 25 hairs/cm2 would be huge for me and I have read many of cotsarelis' papers many times and understood for the most part or at least I believe I have. Understanding Follica's tactics gives me a well grounded knowledge base to be able to say I know that that they will produce awesome results assuming they can make it to market with a product based off what I have read. If their treatment doesn't contain Seti or some other dp2 inhib or PGE2 then cool I have a means to add to the treatment to get even better results than their research reports.

Sorry if I was raining on your parade. I'm not here to bash Tsuji and am not super knowledgeable on the topic. Organogenesis will become extremely important in the future and Tsuji is actually paving the way to creating more complex organs than the simple ones like teeth. (Not actually simple but relatively simple compared to like a liver or such.)(Hair follicles are actually one of the simplest organs if not the simplest.)

I do not say teeth and hair are simple organs to disparage his work but because it is an excellent tactic. When approaching an insurmountably complex problem you solve the simple cases first. People diss testing in mice; mice based research actually speeds the development of science drastically because they are much simpler systems which makes it easier to develop a biotechnology for them. Then you convert the tech to humans. There are also fewer ethical roadblocks with mice.

I particularly look forward to tooth primordium when I get older . I simply do not expect to have any hair issues left when hair follicle primordium comes out. I am transgender so regaining my hair in a timely manner is of critical importance to my happiness and all that.

 

[Omega2327]

I don't really follow Tsuji a lot but...

With regards to Tsuji:
Culturing and induction of Mesenchymal(dp) and Epithelial stem cells is what I am most familiar with. I understand that the Dp cell induction has at least been partially resolved however. It is also my understanding that Kyocera will be developing a robot type armed thingy which will be able to perform the transplantation. This in itself is an entirely different set of engineering challenges. This would probably not be a requirement to get the product to the customer however unless some big wig made it one. I have heard no information on progress of such a robot.

With regards to my own work:
I'm a software engineer and I work in space control systems. Underscoping problems is consistently an issue for me and the engineers I work with. (Software engineers, mechanical engineers, Electrical engineers and Systems engineers)

More generally:
There is a difference between being able to do something in a research setting and having the chemical engineering hashed out and optimized to do it on a large scale. Tons of follicles on tons of people. It is normal for such challenges toi arise. I understand that Tsuji has at least partially hashed out these protocols in some papers of his.

Other stuff:
I understand you have a low opinion of Follica however I have more 'Faith' in them if you would call it that because 25 hairs/cm2 would be huge for me and I have read many of cotsarelis' papers many times and understood for the most part or at least I believe I have. Understanding Follica's tactics gives me a well grounded knowledge base to be able to say I know that that they will produce awesome results assuming they can make it to market with a product based off what I have read. If their treatment doesn't contain Seti or some other dp2 inhib or PGE2 then cool I have a means to add to the treatment to get even better results than their research reports.

Sorry if I was raining on your parade. I'm not here to bash Tsuji and am not super knowledgeable on the topic. Organogenesis will become extremely important in the future and Tsuji is actually paving the way to creating more complex organs than the simple ones like teeth. (Not actually simple but relatively simple compared to like a liver or such.)(Hair follicles are actually one of the simplest organs if not the simplest.)

I do not say teeth and hair are simple organs to disparage his work but because it is an excellent tactic. When approaching an insurmountably complex problem you solve the simple cases first. People diss testing in mice; mice based research actually speeds the development of science drastically because they are much simpler systems which makes it easier to develop a biotechnology for them. Then you convert the tech to humans. There are also fewer ethical roadblocks with mice.

I particularly look forward to tooth primordium when I get older . I simply do not expect to have any hair issues left when hair follicle primordium comes out. I am transgender so regaining my hair in a timely manner is of critical importance to my happiness and all that.

I agree with a lot of what you say. I'd just like to clarify a few things so I'll specifically respond to the first part and say they have achieved cultivation for both mesenchymal and epithelial stem cells. Epithelial cell cultivation was their biggest issue but it was resolved a few months back per an email from Tsuji that @Noisette shared with the community. As for the robotic arm, that is something that will automate the process but that will be implemented in the future. For now, they are teaming up with the top hair transplant surgeons in Japan to leverage their skills in manual placement of primoridums and will use a neon thread guide to control the direction. They've consciously developed this in such a way that transplant surgeons will be able to utilize their skills, unmodified. I encourage you to read their interview if you haven't yet. It's very interesting. Just wanna make sure that people out there have the correct and up to date information.

 

[cocona]

I agree with a lot of what you say. I'd just like to clarify a few things so I'll specifically respond to the first part and say they have achieved cultivation for both mesenchymal and epithelial stem cells. Epithelial cell cultivation was their biggest issue but it was resolved a few months back per an email from Tsuji that @Noisette shared with the community. As for the robotic arm, that is something that will automate the process but that will be implemented in the future. For now, they are teaming up with the top hair transplant surgeons in Japan to leverage their skills in manual placement of primoridums and will use a neon thread guide to control the direction. They've consciously developed this in such a way that transplant surgeons will be able to utilize their skills, unmodified. I encourage you to read their interview if you haven't yet. It's very interesting. Just wanna make sure that people out there have the correct and up to date information.

Cool! I'm more interested in the biochemical side of things myself because that gives me things I can do now with experimentals and time is of the essence. I will likely show more interest in the Tsuji stuff once phase 2's start. I don't have time to hang around hoping I need to solve this problem as quickly as possible.

 

[Jonnyyy]

I agree with a lot of what you say. I'd just like to clarify a few things so I'll specifically respond to the first part and say they have achieved cultivation for both mesenchymal and epithelial stem cells. Epithelial cell cultivation was their biggest issue but it was resolved a few months back per an email from Tsuji that @Noisette shared with the community. As for the robotic arm, that is something that will automate the process but that will be implemented in the future. For now, they are teaming up with the top hair transplant surgeons in Japan to leverage their skills in manual placement of primoridums and will use a neon thread guide to control the direction. They've consciously developed this in such a way that transplant surgeons will be able to utilize their skills, unmodified. I encourage you to read their interview if you haven't yet. It's very interesting. Just wanna make sure that people out there have the correct and up to date information.

So what's their biggest roadblock so far, I'm really excited for the conference hopefully they have something close to working by now.

 

[BaldyBalderBald]

Sorry if I was raining on your parade. I'm not here to bash Tsuji and am not super knowledgeable on the topic. Organogenesis will become extremely important in the future and Tsuji is actually paving the way to creating more complex organs than the simple ones like teeth. (Not actually simple but relatively simple compared to like a liver or such.)(Hair follicles are actually one of the simplest organs if not the simplest.)

I do not say teeth and hair are simple organs to disparage his work but because it is an excellent tactic. When approaching an insurmountably complex problem you solve the simple cases first. People diss testing in mice; mice based research actually speeds the development of science drastically because they are much simpler systems which makes it easier to develop a biotechnology for them. Then you convert the tech to humans. There are also fewer ethical roadblocks with mice.

I like your post but, teeth and hairs are extremely complex organs actually. Liver regenerates...you can chunk a piece of it, it will grow back.

Teeth and hairs well...they just don't, even eroded enamel don't grow back, i wish this was like bones.

Current solution for eroded enamel or broken tooth is medieval, filing what's left of it and replacing it by porcelain veneers or crowns...damn, same material our toilets are made up with...and i don't even talk about screws in our jaws...

Absolutely barbaric

 

[Omega2327]

So what's their biggest roadblock so far, I'm really excited for the conference hopefully they have something close to working by now.

They don't necessarily have any, especially now that they've resolved their epithelial stem cell cultivation issue (which was by far their biggest challenge). They start human clinical trials in 2019 so the big question is whether or not the prophecy will be fulfilled and this will work in humans as well. Their team believes it will work. Exciting times.

 

[Jonnyyy]

They don't necessarily have any, especially now that they've resolved their epithelial stem cell cultivation issue (which was by far their biggest challenge). They start human clinical trials in 2019 so the big question is whether or not the prophecy will be fulfilled and this will work in humans as well. Their team believes it will work. Exciting times.

Imagine how many people Dr Tsuji will make happy because of this, he'd definitely give me my life back, at around 50,000 still worth it.

 

[KevinMcElwee]

If anything, Replicel is exactly the Intercytex and Aderans situation. They can't execute if their lives depended on it. They're out of money and should be out of business by now, if it weren't for their partnerships. Just as the aforementioned failed companies, Replicel has also shown phase 1 type results. This is why I am happy that the baton is passed on to Shiseido. Replicel doesn't have the gusto to accomplish sh*t, but whether it is Intercytex, Aderans, or Replicel, the fundamental approach has always been decent. But ability to manage cash burn rate, secure funding, minimize risk, identify market, all that jazz - you know, business, has been god f*****g awful. Whoooo! Go Shiseido! You can do it!

I thought it too. Now we know Shiseidō is as stupid as Replicel aderans and intercytex. How stupid must be to do a Phase II study without testing different numbers of injections and only varying the cell concentration. What a wonder that with a lower cell concentration then in Phase I there are not 19% regrowth instead 5% regrowth...
Sad times

 

[KevinMcElwee]

Total regrowth of a lost organ would be the best solution. However, the process is difficult because organogenesis is a complex process that involves special stem cells that need to become specific tissues.Except for organs such as hair follicles, those precursor cells are only present during early development.The actual process of the development of these glands from an early structure called the oral ectoderm is not fully understood, although the process involves complicated chemical signaling and changes in gene expression.

 

[Georgi]

I completely think that you have it backwards... follica is a privately funded startup that will post whatever news they can to keep their investors happy. They've already delayed multiple times and while some of their technology might provide benefit, you cannot even BEGIN to compare it to Tsuji in terms of quality. Follica at best will provide slight density increase (25 terminal hairs per square inch). It will not create a new hairline or anything so people should be realistic with their expectations. It's basically dermarolling and minoxidil with some added benefit. Nothing seriously groundbreaking here. RIKEN on the other hand is funded by the Japanese government and is comprised of some of the best scientists in the world. They've already succeeded in all the bio-engineering challenges they've faced in mice and now will put their technologies to the test with humans. And they believe it will work. They don't have the financial pressure of trying to paint a rosy picture of their progesss in order to get more funding and their technologies would give a bald man density of a 16 year old with a great hairline.

Yes, Tsuji will be extremely expensive and only available in Japan in the first few years, but that's besides the point. People can start saving now if they are determined enough (as I am).

Tsuji all the f*****g way.

4 years later they are looking for donations and still no trails....sad u were wrong.

 

[Omega2327]

4 years later they are looking for donations and still no trails....sad u were wrong.

It’s also a little sad you’re digging this up from 4 years ago lol. But yes I suppose I was wrong. When will there be a cure… who knows!

 

[Georgi]

Haha yeah true. Lets hope in the next 15 years