Saw Palmetto: 32% decline in DHT levels, study

[Erik D2]

Re:

My remark:


I wonder if taking 400 or so mgs in the morning and 400 at night would increase the serum levels of DHT down to around 70% or so? There is some indication that palmetto inhibits both type one and type two alpha five reductase, and frankly inhibition of type one isn't all that desirable in my opinion. There might be unfortunate sides to taking 700-800 mgs of the stuff though.

That's been my thinking. I've been taking 320 mg SP, 85-95% F.A, twice a day, for a total of 640 mg/day, and it seems to be helping.

I don't think 320 mg is enough... never did.

 

[michael barry]

If you read the thread through, you'll notice someone pointed out to me that serum levels of DHT weren't effected in the study, just prostate levels.


Saw Palmetto should theoretically be useful topically-----I think that would be a better bet than orally.



In mice, black tea drank as the sole beverage given to the animals for the duration of an experiment lowered their DHT serum levels by 72% on average, which is more than finasteride does in the same animals. I sure would like to see black tea at about three glasses a day, spread over the day, tested for serum DHT reduction in guys.

 

[Erik D2]

We'd need a lab the size of the NIH to run all these studies.

 

[Erik D2]

Re:

they took all that stuff and only reduced DHT 32%. Finasteride reduces the right kind of 5ar to reduce serum DHT 70%, and follicle DHT 80-90%. finasteride doses that reduce DHT less than 50% don't even slow down hair loss.

Many of those substances are believed to promote reductions in both receptor DHT and plasma DHT, so comparing them to drugs that only reduce plasma DHT might not be an equivalent comparison.

 

[Erik D2]

If you read the thread through, you'll notice someone pointed out to me that serum levels of DHT weren't effected in the study, just prostate levels.

I've seen it hypothesized somewhere that SP works primarily on DHT receptors.

Saw Palmetto should theoretically be useful topically-----I think that would be a better bet than orally.

That's provided it can penetrate the scalp.

Even so, there's no reason it couldn't affect the scalp receptors from internally.

In mice, black tea drank as the sole beverage given to the animals for the duration of an experiment lowered their DHT serum levels by 72% on average, which is more than finasteride does in the same animals. I sure would like to see black tea at about three glasses a day, spread over the day, tested for serum DHT reduction in guys.

But who will fund that... Merck?

BTW, what is the DHT serum reduction rate for Green Tea?

 

[abcdefg]

See I think we over simply things in the body or try to logically connect things that do not connect. Sometimes I think science arrives at the wrong answers and then we run with it not knowing its wrong. There are guys in these forums that claim to have drank tons of black tea for many many years and are very high Norwoods. If black tea were that powerful I would think it would have had some effect on these people wouldnt you? Black tea cant do anything at normal amounts when you drink it or someone would have noticed by now.

 

[ripple-effect]

SP and Finasteride use two different mechanisms in blocking DHT. SP helps the androgen receptors be more resistant to DHT while finasteride inhibits it.

 

[Erik D2]

SP and Finasteride use two different mechanisms in blocking DHT. SP helps the androgen receptors be more resistant to DHT while finasteride inhibits it.

I read somewhere that SP acts on both 5AR and follicle receptors.

finasteride does inhibit the formation of DHT, but from what I've read, so does Nettle Root.

And Green Tea too reputedly.

What about Pygeum, does it work on 5AR, the follicle receptors, or both?

 

[cal]

But the big question always boils back to the sexual sides versus the hair gains, doesn't it?


We can write books on SP or any other substance for DHT, but I still have never seen any signs that this basic problem is beatable. Not in terms of anything taken orally. Once that point of understanding is reached, is it even very important to be concerned with the rest of it all? Types of DHT inhibited, where in the body that things act, etc.



To my eyes, this is still the bottom line with systemic DHT inhibition:

-- Anything (oral) that knocks down type-II is gonna cause sexual sides in proportion to the hair gains.

-- Inhibiting type-II is all the hair gains, and inhibiting type-I is either irrelevant and/or bad. (At least based on most current info about this subject. I'm sure the issue is not 100% settled.)

-- Finasteride specifically targets type-II better than anything else out there (including SP). Dutasteride does collateral damage with some type-I inhibition, but it does such a "nuclear option" annihilation of the type-II that it's worth it for some guys.



At the end of all that, I end up thinking that not only will nothing (systemically) work better than finasteride/dutasteride, but there's not much point in even attempting to look for other systemic solutions. If we look outside of finasteride/dutasteride then we're basically wasting our time. Any amount of monkeying with other DHT inhibitors is just finding new & interesting ways of accomplishing what various doses of finasteride/Due would have done more reliably.

Are there any other thoughts on my speech? Criticisms?

 

[abcdefg]

Ya i think thats true. Finasteride is really the key for systemic. Most new treatments are just dht inhibiting topicals that are trying to work safely. We need to start looking at the other factors besides dht. We have dht inhibition down pretty good but the other factors and there seems to be a lot of them need to get pieced together.

 

[Guest]

I have a few answers for all of you.

I took 1/4 proscar for about 20 years - my hairline stayed pretty consistant th whole time. I then developed acute prostitis and it hurt so bad and very difficult to urinate. I switched too SP 320 a day and within 2 days urination was better.

Over the past 4 years I have taken 320 a day and I often take many weeks break and I have consitiantly seen my hairline remain pretty constant over the past 4 years - but each time I go off - I see a noticable difference (shedding). The thing is whenever I go off the SP I revert back to unable to uninate without difficulty - as soon as I go back on - I piss like a race horse.

It has been my experience that SP does work on hairloss - albeit not as well. I also has sexual sides for years on 1/4 proscar and when I switched over to SP I had increased limbido and volume. I did try experimenting with higher amounts of SP and I think I know why there is conflicting answers about sides. I have noticed that with 320 I have no sides - just the oppsite - better sex - more limbido and more volume. I have seen evidence when I try getting higher dosages like 640 or 960 I seem to see a few sides - but nothing close to the sides I had on proscar.

If considering SP - it will help with hair losee but not replace the proscar/finasteride I believe. For me it was a neccassary change and although I lose some hairline each year I think overall it has lasted pretty good over the past 4 years.

Best of luck to you.