Saw Palmetto, Dangerous?

[Guest]

Re: SP

I read on another hair losssite that SP attaches itself to the hair follicle recptor, the same way DHT does. I also read that inhibiting DHT causes the receptors that use it to upregulate, meaning that the receptors start becoming more receptive to DHT because it has been starved of it, but that it maxes out after two months, so the hair receptors have become their most sensitive after two months. I don't know weather this is based on fact or fiction, but maybe someone could enligten me on this one.

I dont know but I would LOVE to see some research to support that little theory!

 

[Reasons]

the real limiting factor for clinical trials with saw palmetto, and any herbal remedy for that matter, is there is no money in it. you can't patent an herb, so there is really no reason for any biotech company to invest the large sums of money into testing the efficacy of it. when Merck patented Propecia you can be sure as hell they were gonna invest the time and money for a well-designed clinical trial to assure FDA approval. now i'm not saying that saw palmetto is a more effective treatment for male pattern baldness than propecia, no one can say that. what i am saying is that it's unfair to expect the same type of efficacy data that you'll get for a patented drug. and we do know it does something that most likely affects testosterone/DHT levels, as its hard to believe that saw palmetto's documented (yes, actual medical journal publication) efficacy for benign prostatic hyperplasia results from a mechanism any more none-specific. Otherwise we would probably coming across some other side effects. For example, if it halted hyperplasia via some vague 'inflammatory' theory, wouldn't we be seeing immunologic side effects? If S.P. just stops cell proliferation generally, wouldn't we be seeing it affect some other cells like the rapidly dividing gut epithelium that come into contact with the stuff fresh down the shoot? I really think it has the potential to be doing something and if it's working at a level thats not lowering my libido or giving me gynecomastia I say lets put it in the f*****g water. Joking aside, $4 a month can't hurt. At the very least, we are keeping our prostates healthy. And yeah, I'm still planning on giving Propecia a go at some point, as soon as my good fortune with the current regime runs out. So I'm no Propecia hater, I haven't even tried the stuff. I just wanted to test out to see if I responded to Rogaine, and I wouldn't know that if I was using both drugs at the same time. I wouldn't know which one (Rogaine or Propecia) was working! Call me a cheap bastard, but I don't want to pay for a drug that I'm not responding to.

 

[HairlossTalk]

there is no money in it. you can't patent an herb, so there is really no reason for any biotech company to invest the large sums of money into testing the efficacy of it.

I knew the money issue was going to come up sooner or later.

The fact is, studies *have* been done on it, and it has not shown results.

Its not that no studies have been done yet, because there is no money in it.

The simple fact is, it has failed to perform.

Proof of this is that there are SEVERAL studies done with Saw Palmetto on the prostate where it DID perform, and it performed well, and what do ya know, they're all over PubMed and in journals. Its widely known and widely talked about.

Serenoa repens (Saw Palmetto) extract for benign prostate hyperplasia: a randomized controlled trial.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

Comparison of Saw Palmetto (extract and whole berry) and Cernitin on prostate growth in rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

In vivo effect of the lipido-sterolic extract of Serenoa repens (Permixon) on mast cell accumulation and glandular epithelium trophism in the rat prostate.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

And there are (literally) about 60 more.

Nobody said "Oh crap, we cant make $ off of SP so lets not do a study on the prostate". They did the study, it performed well, and there ya go. Not so with hair loss.

The whole money issue is really getting to be tedious for me to hear. I had to listen to a salesman for Thymuskin last night at a support group meeting here in san diego tell everyone that everybody in the FDA is "bought out" by the pharmaceutical companies with lavish lifestyles. I just don't buy all of this. The primary reason is because people accuse the ownership of the various hair loss sites of the same thing, all the time, and I know first hand that there are researchers, leaders, CEO's and Presidents of companies who actually DO care about people and do research for "research sake" because they want to make this world a better place.

They did those studies above on Saw Palmetto to see if it would help with the Prostate and it did. They prove, in my opinion, that the whole theory that "the only reason there are no studies on SP for hair loss is because they cant make money" is a bunch of hogwash.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

Thanks HairLossTalk.com-You saved me a lot of typing! :rockon:

 

[HairlossTalk]

Kalika -

5 of us are in the chat right now if u want to come in. I see you're logged in to the forums!

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/onlinechat/chat.htm

Everyone else is welcome too of course.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Reasons]

as far as i know, medical journals don't only publish POSITIVE data. the fact that there are no published reports dealing with Saw Palmetto's affect on hair loss positive or negative to me is an indication that there is inadequate clinical evidence to say anything.

and if you had read what i wrote in its entirity you would have seen that i mentioned the publications on BPH. so please, finishing hearing me out before you use the bold-faced text.

you have great advice and know you stuff, but please calm down a bit when it comes to your arch enemy the mighty $4 a bottle Saw Palmetto extract.

 

[Reasons]

by the way, is there any surprise that none of those journals are significantly high impact? and who is doing the S.P. research, academia? it's ain't Merck! when finasteride was shown to possibly have an effect on prostate cancer, as inconclusive as that data ended up being, where was it? the New England Journal of Medicine.

if you honestly don't believe that profit shapes the pharmaceutical industry, you are very naive. it started with designing progestin for oral contraceptives because you couldn't patent progesterone and goes on and on. once the patent runs out, change one molecule, put it back out. it's sweet business.

 

[Guest]

by the way, is there any surprise that none of those journals are significantly high impact? and who is doing the S.P. research, academia? it's ain't Merck! when finasteride was shown to possibly have an effect on prostate cancer, as inconclusive as that data ended up being, where was it? the New England Journal of Medicine.

if you honestly don't believe that profit shapes the pharmaceutical industry, you are very naive. it started with designing progestin for oral contraceptives because you couldn't patent progesterone and goes on and on. once the patent runs out, change one molecule, put it back out. it's sweet business.

I hear this complaint about RX companies profit motives all the time. My question always is, what is your point? Are you saying that if SP actually worked, that NO reasonably designed studies on its efficacy against male pattern baldness would be done by anyone? Notice I did not say FDA approval, but decent studies.

I think you would be wrong.

To wit, the Atkins Diet. There have been a number of nicely designed studies that indicate that this diet works in weight loss and does not raise blood fat levels.

Now this diet cannot be patented and yest Harvard recently funded a very expensive study to test it. Others studies exist.

It may be that the RX companies will not develop a non-patentable drug but that does not mean that herbs are not tested routinely for effectiveness. It does happen all the time (Gingko, Echinaeca, etd.)

Lastly, I always want to know when I see RX company bashing, "what is your alternative?"

It is fine to rail against some form of "systemic flaw or injustice" but I want to know what your alternative system might be?

 

[Reasons]

As far as my 'point' for all this, it's that I was curious to know more about SP. And yes, after interning with a pharmaceutical company throughout college I'm a bit bitter towards them. Kind of like the kid who worked at a fast food joint and can't eat there anymore having seen what the food is really made of. I'm hoping to be in academia someday so I can really be one of those chaps who does the research cause they love it and wanna make a difference.

Does anyone have access to the Journal of Alternative & Complementary Medicine at their university or otherwise? I'd like to see the full article of this study that just came out this year investigating saw palmetto (Serenoa repens) and alopecia:

Title: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Trial to Determine the Effectiveness of Botanically Derived Inhibitors of 5--Reductase in the Treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia
Author(s): Nelson Prager PhD ; Karen Bickett RN ; Nita French PhD ; Geno Marcovici PhD
Source: The Journal of Alternative & Complementary Medicine      Volume: 8 Number: 2 Page: 143 -- 152
DOI: 10.1089/107555302317371433
Publisher: Mary Ann Liebert, Inc.
Abstract: Background: Androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) is characterized by the structural miniaturization of androgen-sensitive hair follicles in susceptible individuals and is anatomically defined within a given pattern of the scalp. Biochemically, one contributing factor of this disorder is the conversion of testosterone (T) to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) via the enzyme 5- reductase (5AR). This metabolism is also key to the onset and progression of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH). Furthermore, Androgenetic Alopecia has also been shown to be responsive to drugs and agents used to treat BPH. Of note, certain botanical compounds have previously demonstrated efficacy against BPH. Here, we report the first example of a placebo-controlled, double-blind study undertaken in order to examine the benefit of these botanical substances in the treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia.
Objectives: The goal of this study was to test botanically derived 5AR inhibitors, specifically the liposterolic extract of Serenoa repens (LSESr) and -sitosterol, in the treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia.
Subjects: Included in this study were males between the ages of 23 and 64 years of age, in good health, with mild to moderate Androgenetic Alopecia.
Results: The results of this pilot study showed a highly positive response to treatment. The blinded investigative staff assessment report showed that 60% of (6/10) study subjects dosed with the active study formulation were rated as improved at the final visit.
Conclusions: This study establishes the effectiveness of naturally occurring 5AR inhibitors against Androgenetic Alopecia for the first time, and justifies the expansion to larger trials.
Copyright © by Mary Ann Liebert, Inc. 2003
Reference Links: 27

 

[Guest]

I would like to see the details of this study. Based on the abstract, it seems like garbage (the study I mean).

 

[Reasons]

yes! i love the anti-SP sentiment!! if i ever had to engage in a battle against HairLossTalk.com moderators i know that a little saw palmetto berry necklace would be pretty a good start. they keep their distance from this little herb!

yeah, i want to see the study too. that's why i posted the abstract and asked whether anyone had access to it! i'm not drawing any conclusions until i read it. you guys tend to not read entire posts, do you? just skim for the words 'saw palmetto' then attack!

funny how you need to see the entire article to conclude if the study is viable, but only an abstract to conclude that it's most likely crap. i love it!

this tread started out with me thinking about dropping saw palmetto because of all the anti-SP sentiment on this board. but the more i bring it up and the more animosity it draws, the more curious i'm getting with it.

 

[Guest]

yes! i love the anti-SP sentiment!! if i ever had to engage in a battle against HairLossTalk.com moderators i know that a little saw palmetto berry necklace would be pretty a good start. they keep their distance from this little herb!

yeah, i want to see the study too. that's why i posted the abstract and asked whether anyone had access to it! i'm not drawing any conclusions until i read it. you guys tend to not read entire posts, do you? just skim for the words 'saw palmetto' then attack!

funny how you need to see the entire article to conclude if the study is viable, but only an abstract to conclude that it's most likely crap. i love it!

this tread started out with me thinking about dropping saw palmetto because of all the anti-SP sentiment on this board. but the more i bring it up and the more animosity it draws, the more curious i'm getting with it.

If you think that was an attack, you be a tad sensative for this web site.

Re: If I read the abstract right, they had 10 subjects and 6 "responded" whatever that means. Could they be a bit more specific?

Ah, where I come from, 6/10 is in the range of normal error and 10 is not a sufficent sample size to demonstate anything other than poor design.

Unless of couse, they totally changed statistical theory since I last took my courses.

 

[Guest]

PS-drop the attitude. If you don't like the site, no one is begging to stay.

:lol:

 

[Reasons]

oh, i'm not dropping the attitude, it's what will make me memorable. and isn't 'attitude' what internet message boards are for?

but, i do have to question this study myself now that i found this little tidbit:

Herbal Products
Hair GenesisTM, from Dr. Geno Marcovici and Sunset Marketing, sells for $270 for a 3-month supply. It uses a system of a special shampoo, conditioner, supplements, and a serum. It also uses "botanicals" to inhibit type I and II 5-alpha reductase and decrease DHT. Results are claimed to appear in 6 months and it is described as being safe for both men and women.

If this 'Geno Marcovici' is the same fellow who authored the study there may be an incentive for his positive results and the paper must be taken with a grain of salt.

The search for an answer to the saw palmetto question goes on....

 

[Guest]

oh, i'm not dropping the attitude, it's what will make me memorable. and isn't 'attitude' what internet message boards are for?

but, i do have to question this study myself now that i found this little tidbit:

Herbal Products
Hair GenesisTM, from Dr. Geno Marcovici and Sunset Marketing, sells for $270 for a 3-month supply. It uses a system of a special shampoo, conditioner, supplements, and a serum. It also uses "botanicals" to inhibit type I and II 5-alpha reductase and decrease DHT. Results are claimed to appear in 6 months and it is described as being safe for both men and women.

If this 'Geno Marcovici' is the same fellow who authored the study there may be an incentive for his positive results and the paper must be taken with a grain of salt.

The search for an answer to the saw palmetto question goes on....

If you query HairLossTalk.com, he has tons of info on Marcovici, none of it very good I am afraid.

BTW-As indicated in one of my earlier posts, I took SP for several years. Did nothing for my hair loss but it does work very well on prostate, likely as well as proscar.