Also my previous dermatologist was consistently trying to push PRP treatment on me. But at a cost of $1200 per session it seemed like a gamble and I haven’t seen or heard lots of evidence of it’s efficacy - at least not in large percentages. Maybe it’s something worth exploring though. I can afford it but still would be pretty pissed to spend 5k on something which doesn’t ultimately work. I’m not looking for miracle regrowth and never have. I started finasteride to simply maintain and stop the sudden rapid progression I was seeing at the temples. At this point I’d settle for modest improvement to overall density.
Sides And Back Thinning On Dutasteride (pics)
- Thread starter MKP05
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Not surprising why dermatologists like PRP) After you get your prescription for e.g. minoxidil, you don-t need a dermatologist much. PRP cannot be done without regular supplying money to your dermatologist. 1200 per session is apparently overpriced, for me it's not a Q of whether one can afford this, it's a Q of smb making fool of you. Also, this hardcore version of needling is more risky than needling for home use. To my knowledge long-term consequences of consistent injections of extra growth factors (even through taken from your own blood) are not well studied. Injectring large amounts of growth factors to places where they otherwise would never be is risky. Growth factors are very serious things, not vitamins or minoxidil. Higher risk of infections and e.g. scalp atrophy. Long-term cancer risks?
A dermapen (when your body naturally sends some amount of growth factors to these wounds) for home use is first of all a safer (+cheaper) option.
PRP is really effective for skin rejuvenation & hair loss & against scars, popular among celebrities etc. It certainly works. My mother, being obsessed with combating ageing), used PRP (I think 3-4 sessions, now she only uses needling at home for face skin), thew result was rather rapid and very visible.
There is simply no point in smb seeking a patent and conducting very expensive clinical trials for FDA. The logic is similar to e.g. why biotin is not FDA-approved, on a Cleveland website a specialist explained - professionals know it works for hair as an auxiliary treatment + there're plenty of manufacturers, it's not cost effective for one of them to invest in expensive trials and seek an FDA approval.
Provided you take precautions (to reduce a risk of infection), I don't see anything to lose when you try weekly micro needling. Moreover, you do not introduce any extra substances to your regimen - only direct what your body produces to the areas of need.
Surf this forum, there are very positive reviews.
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This is suspicious as well. Besides normal ageing process, there must be smth that accelerated this. I haven't dug much into the Q of greying, maybe later I'll read more about it. When my regrowth reached 2-3 cm for the first time in my life I noticed a few thick grey hairs in different areas of my scalp. Before treatment I never saw a great hair on my head, it would have been impossible for a grey hair to escape my attention). I tried to find what in my regimen may trigger grey hairs to emerge, I haven't found anything plausible. A fact that minoxidil changes hair colour is well-known, my hair is darker now. But I refuse to believe that emergence of grey hairs after I started the regimen is a coincidence...
To be fair, lighting differences, hair length and whether it’s wet or dry can make a huge difference in my hair color. I have definitely gone more grey in two years with a lot of that coming in the last year but it looks MUCH more grey dry than wet and in some of my 2018 pictures my hair was wet or damp so maybe the difference looks more drastic than it actually was. I was definitely already starting to grey in 2018. And my twin brother who is on no treatment is just as grey (but with better hair quality).
For example here’s a pic from today after my haircut with my hair wet and slicked back and then another dry. Big difference in terms of color (redness on 2nd pic is from dermapen). This is another reason having a thinning hairline and forelock work against me. Prior to my hair loss I could put styling cream on wet hair and it would give my hair a darker look all day. I don’t have that option anymore as wet styled hair reveals much more baldness. I keep in more dry so it looks more dense but the trade off is that my grey is more evident.
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Also from my experience with areata as well as documented studies regrown hair often comes back without pigmentation and then gets darker over time. Not sure why that is but perhaps something similar is happening in your case. You may have told me previously but how old are you again? And what is your current Norwood situation?
The difference is huge), lighting & styling can make an impression very subjective
I'm 27; I went from Norwood 3+ (vertex) last summer to Norwood 1 at the moment
Congrats. That must feel great. I’m going in the other direction rapidly. Even If I figure out what’s happening to me I’m well past the point of ever regaining what I had a year ago let alone 2 years. I’m close to giving up on this.
I would attribute my hairline lowering to high strength minoxidil first of all. After I had an interruption for less than a week (all things being equal + increased Rogaine dose), I lost probably half of my regrowth during next weeks. I'm happy and confident about my hair now, but it's still psychologically uncomfortable- I cannot miss a single day. Also, I regained hair in temple zones where it was absent for 10 years, but it took more time to wait for regrowth achieving these zones.
Usually the chances of getting regrowth in areas deprived of hair for 5-10 years are scarce, the chances of regaining what was lost 1-2 years ago are very good.
I also understand that I won't enjoy my NW1 forever, I would be very happy if I manage to maintain a hairline like yours in the first 'dark' hair photo in my 40s.
13 weeks on dutasteride. Condition continuing to deteriorate quickly. Back, sides, top, front. This has to stop. Once again, just as when I started finasteride back in 2018 my hair loss has presented and accelerated in places I never had any hair loss. I don’t care what the science says. I was on finasteride for 17 months and never had one strand of hair thinning on the back and sides. This hair loss directly coincided with my switch from finasteride to dutasteride. I also now have an enormous bald spot right smack in the middle of my forelock. That spot has been there since the initial weeks getting on finasteride (and wasn’t there at all before starting treatment) but now has essentially doubled in size in 2 months on dutasteride. someone please explain this nonsense to me. I have to stop these drugs right?. It’s likely going to result in a massive shed which will lead to complete baldness but at least I will be free of this f*****g bullshit.
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Your scalp condition is clearly unhealthy in these photos. In the 2nd photo I see two zones where your hair are parted (near crown) and demonstrate how your healthy scalp looks - it's pale white with very slight blue/green undertone (on minoxidil this undertone should become a bit more visible, as blood supply improves).
In the 1st and 2nd photos there is clearly inflammation - your skin is brownish-reddish. Your neck is reddish as well. I'm sorry to say - unless your scalp condition improves to the extent your scalp appears in the 2nd photo (a very important example of a healthy scalp), you are very unlikely to see any improvements. Given that it's so inflamed, you're likely to further lose your hair in this zone.
There is an emerging balding spot. It does not look like typical AA, but very close to it. It's plausible that your current regimen actually helps to contain it; and if you drop everything , AA will manifest itself more clearly. This is the same zone where you previously had AA. I have no single idea of how to link this spot to dutasteride. By no means I defend Avodart - I'm always very sceptical about everything and I'm ready to assume a very bizarre course of events. However, it's highly doubtful that your dutasteride 'side effect' case is so bizarre. Given the data you provided, a more plausible explanation seems to be related to non-DHT-dependent mechanism of inflammation. Moreover, one's back is not prone to pattern hair loss, as receptors there are not sensitive to DHT. In your case there is a kind of skin eczema, this is a different mechanism of inflammation.
I also saw your recent temple photo in another thread. Your scalp there is indistinguishable from your forehead skin. This is very bad. You should expect regrowth only if your scalp appearance changes to the way it looks in healthy zones. This is a very important predictor.
In the 1st and 2nd photos there is clearly inflammation - your skin is brownish-reddish. Your neck is reddish as well. I'm sorry to say - unless your scalp condition improves to the extent your scalp appears in the 2nd photo (a very important example of a healthy scalp), you are very unlikely to see any improvements. Given that it's so inflamed, you're likely to further lose your hair in this zone.
There is an emerging balding spot. It does not look like typical AA, but very close to it. It's plausible that your current regimen actually helps to contain it; and if you drop everything , AA will manifest itself more clearly. This is the same zone where you previously had AA. I have no single idea of how to link this spot to dutasteride. By no means I defend Avodart - I'm always very sceptical about everything and I'm ready to assume a very bizarre course of events. However, it's highly doubtful that your dutasteride 'side effect' case is so bizarre. Given the data you provided, a more plausible explanation seems to be related to non-DHT-dependent mechanism of inflammation. Moreover, one's back is not prone to pattern hair loss, as receptors there are not sensitive to DHT. In your case there is a kind of skin eczema, this is a different mechanism of inflammation.
I also saw your recent temple photo in another thread. Your scalp there is indistinguishable from your forehead skin. This is very bad. You should expect regrowth only if your scalp appearance changes to the way it looks in healthy zones. This is a very important predictor.
I’m sorry but I’m going to have to disagree. There was zero hair loss on the back of my head until I stopped taking finasteride and started taking dutasteride. I already bought into this “coincidence” the first time when I started finasteride. I went from slight temporal recession to diffuse loss across the entire Norwood region in a matter of a few months. Putting aside the emerging bald spot on the back of my head which is in the same region as my previous AA. The hair on the back on the other side (never impacted by AA) started to diffuse within a week after starting dutasteride. I’m not buying that this is just yet another bizarre coincidence. This hair loss was directly caused by either starting dutasteride or stopping finasteride. I no longer care if anyone thinks that’s impossible. No one is ever going to convince me that the medication or the change in medication was not directly responsible for this. I’m not a doctor or scientist but there is enough evidence out there about these drugs can inadvertently cause severe androgen sensitivity. I will meet with my derm next week and will follow her advice. If she advises me to stop then that’s what I’m doing. I’ve been very patient with DHT blockers. I didn’t quit at the first sign of things getting worse. I stayed the course for almost 2 years. But enough is enough.
as for the redness you see I’m not saying there’s no inflammation but keep in mind that I had used a brush before taking these pictures. I think if I’d done the same thing on the vertex you would see more redness there as well.
I don’t know what you mean by temple skin being indistinguishable from the forehead. I’ve never seen any balding temple on any human being where the skin looks different from the forehead. I’m not looking for regrowth as much as to stop or slow down the progression. You’ve been very helpful and I appreciate your feedback but I’m clearly fighting a losing battle. And the medication is failing at best and contributing at worst.
as for the redness you see I’m not saying there’s no inflammation but keep in mind that I had used a brush before taking these pictures. I think if I’d done the same thing on the vertex you would see more redness there as well.
I don’t know what you mean by temple skin being indistinguishable from the forehead. I’ve never seen any balding temple on any human being where the skin looks different from the forehead. I’m not looking for regrowth as much as to stop or slow down the progression. You’ve been very helpful and I appreciate your feedback but I’m clearly fighting a losing battle. And the medication is failing at best and contributing at worst.
What else may be done:
1) do not apply Nizoral on visibly inflamed = reddish scalp zones; this makes things worse
2) in no case apply minoxidil on inflamed/reddish/itchy scalp- it contains very irritating (for skin) auxiliary agents (conductors incl. alcohol) and will make things much worse (exacerbating inflammation); apply minoxidil only on non-reddish zones - e.g. on adjacent areas with healthy scalp - minoxidil will anyway reach your follicles in reddish zones but without extra irritation of those visibly inflamed zones;
3) I strongly discourage you from using corticosteriods again, you'll ruin everything, although it's true a topical corticosteriod solution will eradicate this inflammation rapidly and effectively;
If you're unready to start a JAK inhibitor immediately, there is one more option that should work against this kind inflammation, and this would be of great help for you in any case besides its anti-inflammatory effect: DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide).
1) it's very old drug, synthesised by a Russian chemist), in the first WW it was used to ease pain and for wound healing, in the USA they discovered its very powerful effect as a conductor (to help agents penetrate deeply into one's body - e.g. it's frequently used in various face creams, some steroid creams (to help topical corticosteriods reach your joints and ease pain), is is effective for 30+ various inflammatory conditions incl. eczema, prosiaris etc, against skin atrophy, or at very high concentrations it is used to get rid of super-glue))
The problem is that is it easily produced and very cheap, there is no point for a company invest to expensive trials (to meet FDA criteria).
2) risks: it is dangerous to take it orally, but some oral formulation has even been approved by FDA against cystitis. In Russia this medicine is sold via pharmacies as a 99% liquid solution. In the USA, I found, it is sold at e.g. Walmart.
There are numerous risks from chemical burns to eye damage etc. All these risks are about high concentrations of DMSO. e.g. it's very popular to ease joints pain as mono therapy - e.g. a topical 20-60% solution applied to ones' knee for an hour and it will work against pain thank to its anti-inflammatory effect, however, if one keeps a compress too long and does not wash one's knee with water after application, one will likely have a chemical burn.
The point is that it is unsafe if used at high concentrations.
DMSO is widely used in dermatology for various skin inflammatory conditions - rosacea/acne/dermatisis (as a safer non-hormonal alternative to e.g. corticosteriods) and for hair loss. It is less popular in the USA than in Europe. The concentrations for dermatological use are 10-20%. For me this is unsafe, I'm a very cautious person.
Avery low concentration is sufficient to produce good results. Concentrations below 6-7% cannot produce any side effects, higher concentrations applied topically will produce reddish skin for a few hours, higher concentrations will raise the probability of a burn. This is the main concert about this drug.
It has no irreversible effects, it does not cause dependency or affect hormone; system. No cancer risks (some use it against cancer, but there is no evidence that it's effective).
3) effects with respect to hair loss:
- peeling effect: at low concentrations it allows very gentle peeling effect - dead scalp skin peels off more effectively and rapidly + it activates healing mechanisms, it allows to get rid of keratinisation (whether it is black dots on your nose or clogged hair shafts) - actually excessive keratin build-ups are a very important factor that explains e.g. why topical minoxidil fails to produce much result or finasteride'dutasteride despite lowering DHT and inflammation may not be sufficient soo see proper regrowth (hairs simply cannot regrow through keratinised depositions in diseased zones)-
An expensive and more risky alternative is a professional chemical peel (glycoic/lactic/citric acids - AHA/BHA acids). I have tested 14 different hair peels for home use (e.g. Nioxin, Nook, Lebel, Kaaral KO5, Oribe and others) - all they failed (despite price tags and brand names) to produce necessary results and unclog my hair shafts, effects were very short-lasting and did not allow proper Rogaine absorption. I also tried two professional chemical peels (once AHA, once BHA) - this is a very complicated and risky thing: they require a neutraliser, it's very difficult to estimate proper concentrations and timing (before applying a neutraliser), the risk of excessive chemical burn is very high + one cannot use minoxidil and any other topical solutions for 2-7 days after such peeling (which will raise the probability of minoxidil withdrawal effect).
- anti-inflammatory effect: its quite strong - e.g. DMSO alone is used to treat even joints pain + a variety of skin inflammatory conditions, most importantly there is no dependency and/or discontinuation syndrome
- conductor: it's a very effective conductor to direct medicines deeply into skin, even high-strength minoxidil absorbs and soaks within 5-15 minutes (without DMSO my hair look extremely greasy even 7-10 hours after application, no signs of Rogaine application within 1-2 minutes), very convenient
1) do not apply Nizoral on visibly inflamed = reddish scalp zones; this makes things worse
2) in no case apply minoxidil on inflamed/reddish/itchy scalp- it contains very irritating (for skin) auxiliary agents (conductors incl. alcohol) and will make things much worse (exacerbating inflammation); apply minoxidil only on non-reddish zones - e.g. on adjacent areas with healthy scalp - minoxidil will anyway reach your follicles in reddish zones but without extra irritation of those visibly inflamed zones;
3) I strongly discourage you from using corticosteriods again, you'll ruin everything, although it's true a topical corticosteriod solution will eradicate this inflammation rapidly and effectively;
If you're unready to start a JAK inhibitor immediately, there is one more option that should work against this kind inflammation, and this would be of great help for you in any case besides its anti-inflammatory effect: DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide).
1) it's very old drug, synthesised by a Russian chemist), in the first WW it was used to ease pain and for wound healing, in the USA they discovered its very powerful effect as a conductor (to help agents penetrate deeply into one's body - e.g. it's frequently used in various face creams, some steroid creams (to help topical corticosteriods reach your joints and ease pain), is is effective for 30+ various inflammatory conditions incl. eczema, prosiaris etc, against skin atrophy, or at very high concentrations it is used to get rid of super-glue))
The problem is that is it easily produced and very cheap, there is no point for a company invest to expensive trials (to meet FDA criteria).
2) risks: it is dangerous to take it orally, but some oral formulation has even been approved by FDA against cystitis. In Russia this medicine is sold via pharmacies as a 99% liquid solution. In the USA, I found, it is sold at e.g. Walmart.
There are numerous risks from chemical burns to eye damage etc. All these risks are about high concentrations of DMSO. e.g. it's very popular to ease joints pain as mono therapy - e.g. a topical 20-60% solution applied to ones' knee for an hour and it will work against pain thank to its anti-inflammatory effect, however, if one keeps a compress too long and does not wash one's knee with water after application, one will likely have a chemical burn.
The point is that it is unsafe if used at high concentrations.
DMSO is widely used in dermatology for various skin inflammatory conditions - rosacea/acne/dermatisis (as a safer non-hormonal alternative to e.g. corticosteriods) and for hair loss. It is less popular in the USA than in Europe. The concentrations for dermatological use are 10-20%. For me this is unsafe, I'm a very cautious person.
Avery low concentration is sufficient to produce good results. Concentrations below 6-7% cannot produce any side effects, higher concentrations applied topically will produce reddish skin for a few hours, higher concentrations will raise the probability of a burn. This is the main concert about this drug.
It has no irreversible effects, it does not cause dependency or affect hormone; system. No cancer risks (some use it against cancer, but there is no evidence that it's effective).
3) effects with respect to hair loss:
- peeling effect: at low concentrations it allows very gentle peeling effect - dead scalp skin peels off more effectively and rapidly + it activates healing mechanisms, it allows to get rid of keratinisation (whether it is black dots on your nose or clogged hair shafts) - actually excessive keratin build-ups are a very important factor that explains e.g. why topical minoxidil fails to produce much result or finasteride'dutasteride despite lowering DHT and inflammation may not be sufficient soo see proper regrowth (hairs simply cannot regrow through keratinised depositions in diseased zones)-
An expensive and more risky alternative is a professional chemical peel (glycoic/lactic/citric acids - AHA/BHA acids). I have tested 14 different hair peels for home use (e.g. Nioxin, Nook, Lebel, Kaaral KO5, Oribe and others) - all they failed (despite price tags and brand names) to produce necessary results and unclog my hair shafts, effects were very short-lasting and did not allow proper Rogaine absorption. I also tried two professional chemical peels (once AHA, once BHA) - this is a very complicated and risky thing: they require a neutraliser, it's very difficult to estimate proper concentrations and timing (before applying a neutraliser), the risk of excessive chemical burn is very high + one cannot use minoxidil and any other topical solutions for 2-7 days after such peeling (which will raise the probability of minoxidil withdrawal effect).
- anti-inflammatory effect: its quite strong - e.g. DMSO alone is used to treat even joints pain + a variety of skin inflammatory conditions, most importantly there is no dependency and/or discontinuation syndrome
- conductor: it's a very effective conductor to direct medicines deeply into skin, even high-strength minoxidil absorbs and soaks within 5-15 minutes (without DMSO my hair look extremely greasy even 7-10 hours after application, no signs of Rogaine application within 1-2 minutes), very convenient
Just took another picture and you are absolutely right that I have major inflammation occurring at the back of my head and likely elsewhere. To the naked eye it is hard to detect but in pictures it seems quite clear. I’ve also started to get itchy red bumps again on my scalp again - something i haven’t had in probably 8 or 9 months. I know that this is another major sign of an underlying inflammatory issue. In the past I was prescribed a topical solution of clindamycin for the bumps and it has worked but clearly this is not addressing the underlying issue. I’m afraid to use anything right now.
what really aggravates me is that I have mentioned inflammation, the bumps, and general discoloration multiple times in office visits to different dermatologists and they have all sort of shrugged it off. I’ve sort of known since day 1 that inflammation was playing a large role here. Additionally I’ve noticed an increase in itchiness all over the last several days. Arms, legs. Face neck. Something is going on and it’s all connected.
I am interested to potentially try a Jak inhibitor and will discuss with my derm next week. Interesting about DMSO. I’ve seen a few others in this forum mention this but I think I’m a bit confused by your suggestions. How would I obtain DMSO in the safe concentrations you’re describing? I certainly don’t want to burn my scalp.
what really aggravates me is that I have mentioned inflammation, the bumps, and general discoloration multiple times in office visits to different dermatologists and they have all sort of shrugged it off. I’ve sort of known since day 1 that inflammation was playing a large role here. Additionally I’ve noticed an increase in itchiness all over the last several days. Arms, legs. Face neck. Something is going on and it’s all connected.
I am interested to potentially try a Jak inhibitor and will discuss with my derm next week. Interesting about DMSO. I’ve seen a few others in this forum mention this but I think I’m a bit confused by your suggestions. How would I obtain DMSO in the safe concentrations you’re describing? I certainly don’t want to burn my scalp.
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You should aim at regrowth. You've lost your hair very recently and quite unexpectedly, so there are good chances of regaining your hair. Hope your dermatologist won't discourage you that your options are exhausted. Personally, I think one should work harder and experiment further until one reaches what one wants and deserves. You're already sorted many things out, a through hair loss diary that registers all alterations in your regimen, your observations and timing of these is probably the most important component of one's regimen.
I've just taken some additional photos to give you an impression of what is happening to my hair now. I don't have a professional camera with me now, an iPad fails to capture signs of empty hair follicles ('dots' indicating that I used to have hairs there) and differences in scalp colour and texture. I have no vision problems and every time during my experiments I clearly noticed changes to my scalp (during regression and regrowth phases). This is a very important predictor in my case.
Predictably, my current regression firstly affected my most deceased segment- my temples.
The first four photos - to give a general impression of my hairline now (different lighting). Obviously, it looks like sh*t now. Once again(.
Predictably, my current regression firstly affected my most deceased segment- my temples.
The first four photos - to give a general impression of my hairline now (different lighting). Obviously, it looks like sh*t now. Once again(.
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The next six photos - my left temple close-up. It fails to show signs of recently emptied hair follicles, but they are very visible to me. Over there weeks of the experiment I lost about 1cm of my temples. Unfortunately, I have no photos of my temples before this experiment - I conducted it exclusively for myself, a mirror is sufficient for me. The point is that 3 weeks ago my temples looked much better.
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Everything is relative. To be fair, my hair now looks incomparably good than it was last summer. It was a total f*****g sh*t. Over the course of about 6-7 months of my regimen I have managed to get back about 3-4cm of my temples. It used to be a completely bald V-shaped spot that almost connected with a bald spot on my crown (a real lake in the forest'). I regret a lot that I have no photos of how my hair looked last summer. When I started I had no idea that I might find myself on a hair loss forum. Also, at that time I hardly cared about my hair. I had a forelock hairstyle that covered my hairline and had little idea that a have a considerable bald spoof my crown, I did not pay any attention. I started to address the issue only after some of my friends pointed it to me and giggled. Their point was that if I cannot take care of myself, then what should one expect of me in my professional etc field... I decided that I would address the challenge as throughly as I can.
The last photo: the cotton stick indicates where my temples ended last summer. In comparative terms, now I realise it was disgusting. Also, during treatment my overall hairline lowered by about 1-1,5cm (mid-forehead point)
The last photo: the cotton stick indicates where my temples ended last summer. In comparative terms, now I realise it was disgusting. Also, during treatment my overall hairline lowered by about 1-1,5cm (mid-forehead point)
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In a month or so I'll show you some more photos of how a regrowth appears and my temples improve again thank to re-introducing DMSO. It turned out to be much more important than I used to think. Ask your dermatologist about this drug at extremely low concentrations. I use 3%. Now I believe its effect is not only about better minoxidil absorption, but also independent contribution to lowering inflammation around hair follicles. Now I know my regimen does not work without this component.