Sitri Conference 04.14.2018: Brotzu Presentation - Updates Only

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Badbald

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IdealForehead said:
Lol. Well you're stuck with me either way for a little longer until I sort out my estrogen business. Running estriol experiments now over here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...trogen-promote-and-hinder-hair-growth.113077/

And thanks. But I think you're mostly having trouble because you have waited so long with your hair and you are opposed to aggressive measures. We have some members on here who have had dramatic recoveries at NW4+ but they all went very aggressive in treatment. If you ever became willing to do the same, the same might be possible for you too.

Otherwise, you're gonna have to cross your fingers and hope for stem cells to save you.

I think you already know which of those two options I prefer. But that's up to you.
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When you say aggressive measures, do you mean ones that give you side effects? or something else

I think when it comes to brotzu lotion, the main question really is release date, I dont think we can safely say the pictures are a complete illusion. If we could some how get fidia to give us some kind of date on this then we may have a clearer understanding of whether this really is a scam and what other treatments we could consider if the dates not too far as they would only be short term if maintenance is acceptable.
 
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IdealForehead

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razzmatazz91 said:
What's the aggressive treatments you talk of?

Oral Minoxidil, duta and spironolactone?
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Badbald said:
When you say aggressive measures, do you mean ones that give you side effects? or something else
Click to expand...


AGGRESSIVE TREATMENTS
ie. Theoretical agents to possibly try after finasteride and 5% minoxidil fail or are not acceptable.

Anti-androgens
  • Dutasteride 0.5 mg per day
  • Spironolactone 100-200 mg per day (requires blood monitoring of electrolytes, technically)
  • Cyproterone 25-100 mg per day
  • Topical bicalutamide/darolutamide/enzalutamide (any that can be dissolved in sufficient quantities)
  • Nizoral cream (if spots are bald enough for it) - full mechanism of action is unknown but likely it is primarily anti-androgenic
Growth Stims
  • Oral minoxidil 2.5-5 mg once or twice daily
  • Topical minoxidil
  • PRP/wounding
  • LLLT (though my opinion is mixed on this)
Adjuncts
  • Topical desloratadine 1% (anti-histamine)
  • Niacinamide 5% (B vitamin)
Estrogens
  • Topical racemic equol - though untested - I think it should work well
  • Topical estriol - either with a small amount localized to the scalp or applied in sufficient quantity to the general skin to get a full systemic effect

Those are all my personal favorite theoretical agents. I think it would be almost impossible for any man with androgenic alopecia to go bald with even one good agent (for them - trial and error) combined from each of these four classes.

There are so many good and strong ways to disrupt the process of androgenic alopecia, it's not even a matter of it it can be treated. It's just a matter of finding the agents you can best tolerate, and the agents where you feel most comfortable with the unknown long term risks. Keep in mind most of the things above have not been formally tested for hair loss and some like the androgen receptor antagonists could be dangerous to you or others from long term exposure. That is why I describe them as "theoretical".

The thing we need to put a "nail in the coffin" for all this is a method to confer DHT resistance to our Norwood hair follicles which researchers are working on. But until then, and until that's proven safe with 5-10 years data, a person must work actively to keep their hair if they want it.
 
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sunchyme1

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IdealForehead said:
AGGRESSIVE TREATMENTS
ie. Things to possibly try after finasteride and 5% minoxidil fail or are not acceptable.

Anti-androgens
  • Dutasteride 0.5 mg per day
  • Spironolactone 100-200 mg per day (requires blood monitoring of electrolytes, technically)
  • Cyproterone 25-100 mg per day
  • Topical flutamide/bicalutamide/darolutamide/enzalutamide (whatever you can get and dissolve in sufficient quantities - I only know daro since that's what I use)
Growth Stims
  • Oral minoxidil 2.5-5 mg once or twice daily
  • Topical minoxidil
  • PRP/wounding
  • LLLT (though my opinion is mixed on this)
Adjuncts
  • Topical desloratadine 1% (anti-histamine)
  • Niacinamide 5%
Estrogens
  • Topical equol - though untested - I think it should work well.
  • Topical or oral estriol

Those are all my personal favorite agents. I think it would be almost impossible for any man with androgenic alopecia to go bald with even one good agent (for them - trial and error) from each of these four classes.

There are so many good and strong ways to disrupt the process of androgenic alopecia, it's not even a matter of it it can be treated. It's just a matter of finding the agents you can best tolerate, and the agents where you feel most comfortable with the unknown long term risks.

The only thing we need to put a "nail in the coffin" for all this is a method to confer DHT resistance to our Norwood hair follicles which researchers are working on. But until then, and until that's proven safe with 5-10 years data, you need to keep your hair if you want it. And there are plenty of ways to do that.
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seriously you cant leave
 
T

That Guy

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I've been saying it for a year now, and I stand by it.

Follica, Shiseido, and Riken are the only real hopes for anything better. Human results, utilizes stem cells, and are on the home stretch to commercialization.

A lotion is never going to be any sort of hairloss cure. I wish that companies would stop wasting time and money on this kind of bullshit.
 
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razzmatazz91

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That Guy said:
I've been saying it for a year now, and I stand by it.

Follica, Shiseido, and Riken are the only real hopes for anything better. Human results, utilizes stem cells, and are on the home stretch to commercialization.

A lotion is never going to be any sort of hairloss cure. I wish that companies would stop wasting time and money on this kind of bullshit.
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Home stretch to commercialisation?
Idk man... let's wait for trial results first...

I was always sceptical about the Bro-Lotion... but holy hell man, we had guys thinking "I went from N2 to NW7 in five years... so Brotzu will bring me back to NW2". It was just going off the rails...
 
B

Badbald

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IdealForehead said:
AGGRESSIVE TREATMENTS
ie. Things to possibly try after finasteride and 5% minoxidil fail or are not acceptable.

Anti-androgens
  • Dutasteride 0.5 mg per day
  • Spironolactone 100-200 mg per day (requires blood monitoring of electrolytes, technically)
  • Cyproterone 25-100 mg per day
  • Topical flutamide/bicalutamide/darolutamide/enzalutamide (whatever you can get and dissolve in sufficient quantities - I only know daro since that's what I use)
  • Nizoral cream (if spots are bald enough for it) - full mechanism of action is unknown but likely it is primarily anti-androgenic
Growth Stims
  • Oral minoxidil 2.5-5 mg once or twice daily
  • Topical minoxidil
  • PRP/wounding
  • LLLT (though my opinion is mixed on this)
Adjuncts
  • Topical desloratadine 1% (anti-histamine)
  • Niacinamide 5% (B vitamin)
Estrogens
  • Topical racemic equol - though untested - I think it should work well
  • Topical estriol - either with a small amount localized to the scalp or applied in sufficient quantity to the general skin to get a full systemic effect

Those are all my personal favorite agents. I think it would be almost impossible for any man with androgenic alopecia to go bald with even one good agent (for them - trial and error) from each of these four classes.

There are so many good and strong ways to disrupt the process of androgenic alopecia, it's not even a matter of it it can be treated. It's just a matter of finding the agents you can best tolerate, and the agents where you feel most comfortable with the unknown long term risks.

The only thing we need to put a "nail in the coffin" for all this is a method to confer DHT resistance to our Norwood hair follicles which researchers are working on. But until then, and until that's proven safe with 5-10 years data, you need to keep your hair if you want it. And there are plenty of ways to do that.
Click to expand...


Nice, that is a pretty good list of suggestions there!

One thing is obviously the side effects to a lot of it, ive never really heard of darolutamide or Cyproterone before you mentioned, are these mostly side effect free?

Whats your view on H&Ws topical finasteride, should that not be added to the list?

I think Nizorale cream is a good idea and a pretty safe bet in terms of it could help with little issues.

I was thinking topical Spironolactone for a while but im not sure what the consensus is on this still in terms of it doing anything to help and its sides
 
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IdealForehead

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Badbald said:
Nice, that is a pretty good list of suggestions there!

One thing is obviously the side effects to a lot of it, ive never really heard of darolutamide or Cyproterone before you mentioned, are these mostly side effect free?

Whats your view on H&Ws topical finasteride, should that not be added to the list?

I think Nizorale cream is a good idea and a pretty safe bet in terms of it could help with little issues.

I was thinking topical Spironolactone for a while but im not sure what the consensus is on this still in terms of it doing anything to help and its sides
Click to expand...

Here's my personal experience for whatever it's worth:

Safest agents
  • Topical nizoral - likely no side effects - very little absorbs deeply into the skin at all.
  • 5% niacinamide - only good for skin, no side effects
  • 1% desloratadine - no significant side effects expected, anti-histamine only

Low risk agents
  • 5% topical minoxidil - some pro-aging effects, wrinkles etc.
  • PRP/wounding - just trauma, risk of infection
  • LLLT - if you over do it, you can actually inhibit hair growth - this is why my opinion on this is "mixed"

Mid risk agents
  • Dutasteride - I call this "mid risk" because although there are known risks of DHT suppression and effects on neurosteroids, it's still a well proven/known agent; can affect fertility/erections/mood.
  • Topical racemic equol - Likely not high risk but unclear since no one has done major trials on it.
  • Oral minoxidil - Can cause palpitations, puffiness, may be risky for people with heart conditions.
High risk agents
  • Estriol - I don't truly know the full risk profile as I've only been experimenting on it briefly. Might affect fertility etc. I only put it high risk because its isolated use is an unknown in hetero men. (In women it's almost zero risk.) At least it's a natural hormone so probably not too bad.
  • Cyproterone - Used to chemically castrate men at 100 mg per day - I was completely impotent at this dose - hardcore agent. Plus increased risk of blood clots in the body.
  • Spironolactone - Also almost neutered me at 200 mg per day, risk of electrolyte imbalances (high potassium) which can literally kill, exhausting to pee so much because it's a diuretic.
  • Topical flutamide/bicalutamide/darolutamide/enzalutamide - Ideally these should just block the androgen receptor at the scalp, but they do absorb systemically as well which puts you at risk for long term androgen deprivation side effects (eg. skin dryness, bone density, fertility). Many risks may be unknown long term. Of those, daro is my favorite because it is less likely to cross the blood-brain barrier, but it has no long term safety data being brand new and being the strongest, it may also have the biggest risks.
That's the best I can do to stratify things. You could also absolutely try topical finasteride if oral finasteride worked for you and you just want to see if you can limit side effects. finasteride didn't work at all for me, so I have never bothered to pursue that.
 
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IdealForehead

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michel sapin said:
@IdealForehead ; what about low duta + low dose AI to prevent side effect ?

and minoxidil really have aging property on me ! and hypertrichosis
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Michel! Stop asking me the same question! lol. I've told you many times now I don't think you should take dutasteride with an aromatase inhibitor because you have told me dutasteride has caused two combined problems for you:

- High estrogen
- High prolactin

An aromatase inhibitor will control the estrogen but not the prolactin. Then you'd have to take something else to control prolactin, like hardcore body builders do, and now you're on three drugs, two of which are just to manage the dutasteride side effects.

As Georgie has pointed out to you, also, an aromatase inhibitor will only likely accelerate hair loss by reducing conversion of androgens to estrogen and thus increasing androgen levels.

My opinion for you is still the same - you need to find a new anti-androgenic therapy. We've reviewed all the good options in this thread. (I don't count RU as I lost hair on it by the 2 year mark and it never fully stopped my hair shedding.) The rest is up to you to decide.
 
michel sapin

michel sapin

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thanks bro , but i am reall reluctant about ru ; not the med itself , but the supplier
 
whatintheworld

whatintheworld

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michel sapin said:
thanks bro , but i am reall reluctant about ru ; not the med itself , but the supplier
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Dude be careful messing around with drugs if you are noticing side effects. Better off to save for a transplant and go with that, as opposed to taking these risks.
 
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charlie76761

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IdealForehead said:
Here's my experience:

Safest agents
  • Topical nizoral - likely no side effects - very little absorbs deeply into the skin at all.
  • 5% niacinamide - only good for skin, no side effects
  • 1% desloratadine - no side effects expected, anti-histamine only

Low risk agents
  • 5% topical minoxidil - some pro-aging effects, wrinkles etc.
  • PRP/wounding - just trauma, risk of infection
  • LLLT - if you over do it, you can actually inhibit hair growth - this is why my opinion on this is "mixed"

Mid risk agents
  • Dutasteride - I call this "mid risk" because although there are known risks of DHT suppression and effects on neurosteroids, it's still a well proven/known agent; can affect fertility/erections/mood.
  • Topical racemic equol - Likely not high risk but unclear since no one has done major trials on it.
  • Oral minoxidil - Can cause palpitations, puffiness, may be risky for people with heart conditions.
High risk agents
  • Estriol - I don't truly know the full risk profile as I've only been experimenting on it briefly. Might affect fertility etc. I only put it high risk because its isolated use is an unknown in hetero men. (In women it's almost zero risk.) At least it's a natural hormone so probably not too bad.
  • Cyproterone - Used to chemically castrate men at 100 mg per day - I was completely impotent at this dose - hardcore agent. Plus increased risk of blood clots in the body.
  • Spironolactone - Also almost neutered me at 200 mg per day, risk of electrolyte imbalances (high potassium) which can literally kill, exhausting to pee so much because it's a diuretic.
  • Topical flutamide/bicalutamide/darolutamide/enzalutamide - Personally I actually think these are pretty safe since all they do ideally is block the androgen receptor at the scalp, but they do absorb systemically as well which puts you at risk for long term androgen deprivation side effects (eg. skin dryness, bone density, fertility). Of those, daro is my favorite because it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, but it has no long term safety data being brand new and being the strongest, it may also have the biggest risks.

That's the best I can do to stratify things. You could absolutely try topical finasteride if oral finasteride worked for you and you just want to see if you can limit side effects. finasteride didn't work at all for me, and I prefer in principle androgen receptor antagonists (eg. daro) over 5-AR inhibitors (eg. finasteride) so I have never bothered to pursue that.
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Hi Ideal,

What's the thinking of racemic Equol (S & R), rather than just S-Equol (excluding the mix being cheaper)

Also, possible to use cyproterone topically?

Thanks
 
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IdealForehead

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charlie76761 said:
Hi Ideal,

What's the thinking of racemic Equol (S & R), rather than just S-Equol (excluding the mix being cheaper)

Also, possible to use cyproterone topically?

Thanks
Click to expand...

See the equol thread for a full explanation:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-and-the-primary-ingredient-in-brotzu.113209/

In short:
- All equol on Alibaba that I have asked specifically about is actually racemic equol. One supplier told me "all Chinese sources use racemic equol". Even the ones that say "s-equol" when pushed answered that it was racemic. So to get pure s-equol you would need to do a custom chiral separation which would cost extra money and hassle.
- In the prostate and skin studies, R-equol had a much more potent effect than S-equol. R-equol can downregulate 5-AR while S-equol cannot. R-equol can shrink prostates (like finasteride/dutasteride) while S-equol cannot.

We can see here that s-equol (brotzu) is no magic, so if you're going to test equol, may as well test racemic where you have a higher chance of success.

I think the moderator Roberto uses some topical cypro in his formulation. This is what I find when I google it - an acne study testing cypro topically which found:

RESULTS:
After 3 months of therapy with topical cyproterone acetate, the decrease of mean facial acne grade from 1.57 to 0.67 was significantly better (P<.05) compared with placebo (which showed a change from 1.57 to 1.25), but not compared with oral medication (1.56 to 0.75) (P>.05). Lesion counts also decreased from 35.9 to 9.1 in the topical cyproterone acetate group compared with oral medication (45.4 to 15.5) (P>.05) and placebo (38.2 to 23.1) (P<.05). After topical cyproterone acetate treatment, serum cyproterone acetate concentrations were 10 times lower than those found after oral cyproterone acetate intake.

CONCLUSIONS:
The therapeutic effect of topically applied cyproterone acetate for acne treatment was clearly demonstrated. Topically applied sexual steroids in combination with liposomes are as effective as oral antiandrogen medication in acne treatment, while reducing the risk of adverse effects and avoiding high serum cyproterone acetate concentrations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9554298
​
So in principle it would work. Appears to be equal effect with 10x lower serum levels.

I just checked some solubility data for cypro and I think that would be your biggest problem. That's probably why they used liposomes. I'm not sure you could get much to dissolve in a standard base like 5% minoxidil. If you had or could get some powder, you could always try I suppose.
 
Timii

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Funny fact about Brotzu: During the conference tricologists in the room asked the sh*t out of Brotzu lol , however he insisted on mentioning the results with wash tests, pull tests and AA. Apparently the atmosphere was really tense
 
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