Skull expansion: Alternative model for primary mech. of Androgenetic Alopecia

[michael barry]

Bryan,

Armando disputes the lasting growth of hair transplants. He insists that hair plugs eventually fall out despite the fact that Ive posted many pictures of hair transplants from the SEVENTIES where the plugs persist even though the hair that was around them have fallen out----looking ridiculous.

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/patient ... I-8003.php

http://www.hairtransplantnetwork.com/sh ... 67&DRID=15




That is a good example of seventies hair plugs still growing right up front after the hair around them fell out. I could post hundreds more, but one example will do.





Ive posted a pic of remarkable REGROWTH EVEN UP FRONT with simple finasteride use with one young man. Finasteride, AS WE ALL KNOW, does not effect sebum production AT ALL, yet it regrew a great deal of this man's hair even UP FRONT. Both these things would invalidate his theory, yet he like Foote, cannot let go and keeps coming back with it.
http://www.baldingblog.com/2005/05/02/p ... ts-photos/

 

[Armando Jose]

But there is any reference about "castration prevents the future occurrence of balding" apart the obscure citation of Hamilton???

I certainly wouldn't call that an "obscure citation"! Hamilton's studies are still referenced to this very day by all the top doctors studying androgenetic alopecia. Have you read them yourself, Armando?

Honestly,...., I didn't read the whole paper of Hamilton, I did try it, but without succes.
Can you send me an electronic or scaned copy? But, if Dr. Hamilton only talks about the ancient ideas of Medical Greeks it could be a waste of time...., ..., Did experiment Hamilton with eunuchs?

Certainly his ideas are a "mantra" even recent papers...

Armando

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

Armando disputes the lasting growth of hair transplants. He insists that hair plugs eventually fall out despite the fact that Ive posted many pictures of hair transplants from the SEVENTIES where the plugs persist even though the hair that was around them have fallen out----looking ridiculous.

Geez...Armando, is Michael right about that? Do you really believe that hair transplants don't work, despite the fact that that's an experiment which takes place EVERY DAY in various transplant doctors' offices around the world?? :shock:

Ive posted a pic of remarkable REGROWTH EVEN UP FRONT with simple finasteride use with one young man. Finasteride, AS WE ALL KNOW, does not effect sebum production AT ALL, yet it regrew a great deal of this man's hair even UP FRONT. Both these things would invalidate his theory, yet he like Foote, cannot let go and keeps coming back with it.

As I've said to Stephen Foote many times over the years, these alternative theories of balding say far more about human psychology and the need to support one's pet theory than they say about science.

 

[Bryan]

Honestly,...., I didn't read the whole paper of Hamilton, I did try it, but without succes.
Can you send me an electronic or scaned copy?

Sorry, Armando, I don't have any of them in electronic format, I only have paper copies of them.

But, if Dr. Hamilton only talks about the ancient ideas of Medical Greeks it could be a waste of time...., ..., Did experiment Hamilton with eunuchs?

Hamilton did NOT just discuss the ideas of the ancient Greeks!! He had direct contact with eunuchs, and observed their family histories of balding, and documented their own lack of balding. He wrote about all this stuff _very_ extensively in his studies. I recommend that you get to a medical library and read what he had to say about all that.

 

[Armando Jose]

Honestly,...., I didn't read the whole paper of Hamilton, I did try it, but without succes.
Can you send me an electronic or scaned copy?

Sorry, Armando, I don't have any of them in electronic format, I only have paper copies of them.

[quote="Armando Jose":3sm18jkz]But, if Dr. Hamilton only talks about the ancient ideas of Medical Greeks it could be a waste of time...., ..., Did experiment Hamilton with eunuchs?

Hamilton did NOT just discuss the ideas of the ancient Greeks!! He had direct contact with eunuchs, and observed their family histories of balding, and documented their own lack of balding. He wrote about all this stuff _very_ extensively in his studies. I recommend that you get to a medical library and read what he had to say about all that.[/quote:3sm18jkz]

Thank you for your response Bryan.
I'll try read them or even buy the article, but I'll bet taht Dr. Hamilton contact with no moer than 10 eunuchs . Really it is a pitty than a key bassament of the current androgenetic theory don't have more studies nowadays.

On the other hand I don´'t refuse that hair trasplant are, today; the only method to regain hair lost years ago, but clearly all of them don't survive passing the time. Androgenetic alopecia, or common baldness, is a slow process, in his first stage.

have a nice day, also to you Mr. Barry

Armando

P.D. Mr. Bryan, can you up some parts of the original Hamilton's studies in your personal web?

 

[michael barry]

On the other hand I don´'t refuse that hair trasplant are, today; the only method to regain hair lost years ago, but clearly all of them don't survive passing the time. Androgenetic alopecia, or common baldness, is a slow process, in his first stage

Armando,
If you look at the hair of a man who has always worn his hair long (Michael Douglas), you will see that the hair thins all over the scalp, even back in the donor area over the decades.

Men without male pattern baldness lose a great deal of density by the time they are in their sixties and seventies even back in the donor area (where it rests on pillows). Hair transplanted from inside "the safe zone" in the heart of the donor area might see some thinning 20-30 years after it was transplanted, but generally stays up there growing and greying right along with the rate of the donor area hair that is still in the back of the head.



Finasteride doesn't effect sebum production, yet regrows quite a bit of hair in men if they are still younger than 25 or so. You claim sebum back up in the philosebaceous unit is the reason for male baldness, but these men simply disprove that. There is no "stimulant" in finasteride, so if your theory were true, at best finasteride really wouldn't be helpful at all. Yet it restores hair in many that it was lost fairly recently in (2-3 years).


Armando, if your theory were true an alpha five type ONE inhibitor or a agent that reduced sebum would be "the bomb" for male pattern baldness, and NOT finasteride or dutasteride.



Those buzz cuts are as popular as they ever were in my parts. Im still waiting for tons of these guys to start going bald, and it still isn't happening--- :$

 

[Bryan]

Thank you for your response Bryan.
I'll try read them or even buy the article, but I'll bet taht Dr. Hamilton contact with no moer than 10 eunuchs . Really it is a pitty than a key bassament of the current androgenetic theory don't have more studies nowadays.

P.D. Mr. Bryan, can you up some parts of the original Hamilton's studies in your personal web?

Take a look at the thread "would castration work?", which is over in the Experimental Treatments, Vitamins & Supplements forum. I just posted an old article of mine from the alt.baldspot days, discussing Hamilton's 1960 study of castration and hair loss (note that there are several others he wrote besides just that one). I directly quote quite a bit from that study. In just that one study ALONE, he examined 21 different eunuchs!

 

[Armando Jose]

Thank you for your response Bryan.
I'll try read them or even buy the article, but I'll bet taht Dr. Hamilton contact with no moer than 10 eunuchs . Really it is a pitty than a key bassament of the current androgenetic theory don't have more studies nowadays.

P.D. Mr. Bryan, can you up some parts of the original Hamilton's studies in your personal web?

Take a look at the thread "would castration work?", which is over in the Experimental Treatments, Vitamins & Supplements forum. I just posted an old article of mine from the alt.baldspot days, discussing Hamilton's 1960 study of castration and hair loss (note that there are several others he wrote besides just that one). I directly quote quite a bit from that study. In just that one study ALONE, he examined 21 different eunuchs!

Dear Bryan,
You win
I've lost my bet!!!! Argggggg....21 different eunuchs studied, not ten!!! and exist other study more earlier that present the results with two more eunuchs.....
Now, I am a convert, you make the miracle with the sleeping guy .....

Sincerelly I think that only repeat the ancient mantra "DHT is the culprit" as a parrot based only in these studies is not the better option. At least, if more recent study strengthen Hamilton's ideas, nowadays there is a lot of people changing his sex.
And, as say Follicle84: "The testes are just one source of testosterone (the main source) the adrenal glands are another"

As soon as possible I'll try to read the full text, Even better the key study in 1942:
Male hormone stimulation is prerequisite and an incitant in common baldness
James B. Hamilton
American Journal of Anatomy
Volume 71, Issue 3 , Pages451 - 480
Copyright © 1942 Wiley-Liss, Inc., A Wiley Company

Baldness, not hairiness, is now thought by scientists to be the true sign of masculinity.
Dr. James B. Hamilton, of the Yale University School of Medicine, in Science News Letter, April 11. 1942, p. 232.


Thank you for your effort.

Armando

 

[DuCharme]

I remember an interview with Christopher Walken from four or five years ago where, to paraphrase, he said he has kept his hair by pulling on it vigorously each day to 'strengthen' the follicles or some such thing. Maybe he was pulling them away from the bone? :freaked2:

 

[bornthisway]

Download for PDF:

PDF

 

[Vigaku]

Wasn't intending to download that^ but anyway, found a topic about this subject...anyone interested click this link: http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Gene ... Cause.html

Seems convincing, but what got me was this:

"DHT can stimulate hair growth, but it also encourages bone growth. Androgens like DHT are steroid hormones which have an anabolic effect on bone formation (i.e., they make it grow!) DHT causes Skull Expansion, which then causes hair loss to start. "

I was about to ask if DHT really does that but a quick google search told me it did. Wow...so I guess DHT not only binds to the follicle, it does something else that accelerates the hair loss (in a way). It does answer the pattern baldness questions better than anything else though.

I'm currently a little skeptical though since women can also have these big skulls...but it's probably not that common with them.

 

[Vigaku]

bump

 

[squeegee]

Recent research conducted by Duke University in America has discovered that the bones of our face move as we grow older, contributing to the appearance of ageing.Most of the bones in the body stop growing after puberty, but unlike the rest of the skeleton, the skull isn’t made of growth plates. Researchers used CT scans on 100 men and women to find that the facial bones essentially tilt forward with age. The result: muscle and skin become less supported, creating subtle changes in the shape of the face. This occurs in both sexes, but it’s notably more dramatic in women.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/stel ... uture.html

 

[squeegee]

After all theses years of trying stuff on my hair.. I am starting to think that this skull theory is real, no jokes on.

 

[Vigaku]

Thanks for replying...

Also just think about it. Ever saw those men who were literally BALD AS HELL? You know those men who don't just have bald crowns and receding hairlines? Their heads are HUGE. It's no joke. You may ask well then why is everyone who's totally bald not have a big head. It could simply be that they originally had very small heads and it increased in size, yet still looks small because heads obviously don't get that much bigger, just big enough for the extreme baldness.

But does DHT cause the expansion is the question. Probably so.

I think there is some truth to this. Just looking at the pattern of baldness in men, especially men that are completely bald, with hair growing in the sides of their heads (the horse shoe pattern), makes me think that there is something "funky" about the skin on the very top of the head (the balding scalp). And the skin on the sides and back of the head is so plush compared to the top of the head. When you look in the mirror, and you raise your eye brows, you can see that the skin on the forehead is much more plush, thicker, than the skin just above it where the hairline is receding. And the skin on the temples is especially thin, which makes me think that this is why the hair on the temples is usually the first to go.

Also, I believe I read somewhere that there is a type of hair restoration procedure in which the sides of the scalp are pulled up and joined at the top of the head. In other words, the idea is to cover the balding scalp - the top of the head - by "spreading" the sides of the head upward so that they meet in the middle of the head. And I heard that when this procedure is performed, the hairs that were at the top of the sides of the head also fall out. So again, this makes me think that there is something about the top of the head and the stretching of the skin that causes, or at least influences is some way, hair loss.

But the fact that you can transplant hairs from the back of the scalp to the top of the head in a common hair transplant procedure, and those hairs do survive, does punch a hole in this theory.

I don't know. But I'm glad they are looking into it. I can't cite details off hand at the moment, but so often in science has mankind thought they had a working model of some scientific phenomenon, only to realize that the model was wrong later on. The atom is a good example, I suppose.

I agree, good find!

Wait a minute..

I thought the transplanted hairs come in skin grafts? Wouldn't this then make the top scalp more "plush", thus not suffocating the follicles? I think this is the reason.

That is probably why follicles HAVE to be in grafts for a hair transplant to work. They probably won't even have room in the scalp if it's tight like in a bald man's head.

Also totally agree with the skin part. Notice how bald heads are hard and shiny. Why would hair's be there? the skin is too close to the skull in this case. It all makes sense, but I guess there's still some doubt about this.

 

[epictetus]

Here's the relevant Christopher Walken quote that fits this model:

SG: You don’t look anywhere near that old. What’s your beauty secret?

CW: My skin has never seen the light of day. And I have a lot of hair - that helps.

SG: I think my hair is starting to recede some.

CW: Anthony Perkins, who I knew as a kid, told me once that every day I should grab my hair and pull it for five minutes. I’ve been doing it since he told me that. They say that men lose their hair because over the years the skin on the scalp tightens, the blood gets cut off, and the hair dies, like grass, so the thing is to keep the scalp loose by pulling on it.

 

[Bryan]

I thought the transplanted hairs come in skin grafts? Wouldn't this then make the top scalp more "plush", thus not suffocating the follicles? I think this is the reason.

That is probably why follicles HAVE to be in grafts for a hair transplant to work. They probably won't even have room in the scalp if it's tight like in a bald man's head.

Really? Then explain why it is that balding hair follicles from the scalp continue to go bald, right on schedule, even when they're transplanted to your ARM (there's nice thick skin on your arm, obviously).

 

[OverMachoGrande]

It is known that balding men have higher levels of IGF-1 (Insulin-like growth factor #1). IGF-1 is the most powerful growth promoter in your body. Think about it, it makes the prostate grow, so why not the scalp?

IGF-1 is created naturally in balance with its binding proteins, mainly IGFBP-1 and IGFBP-3. The problem, is that excess IGF-1 is also created by insulin and dairy and large amounts of animal protein comsumption. Insulin caused by eating crap-food like deserts, candy, and soda pop, cause a sharp spike in insulin that triggers IGF-1 production and inhibits S.H.B.G.

Dairy foods directly increase IGF-1 due to the complex structure of the amino acids and by large amounts of natural occurring hormones such as IGF-1. Dairy has always been touted as being a bone builder, because it increases bone growth, right?

So here is what I'm pondering: Maybe this theory is true to some extent. Maybe not skull expansion per say, but skull remodeling, constant bone turnover on top of the head.

Which brings us to new research I've been doing on magnesium and intracellular calcium. Magnesium deficiency is associated with insulin resistance, which is associated with not only male pattern baldness, but also serious types of cancer and disease! Insulin depletes magnesium, which is needed for calcium absorption in the bone, when the bone cannot absorb calcium, calcium it is stored in the tissue--think: hardening of the scalp/male pattern baldness, kidney stones, etc. Magnesium also controls blood sugar and nerve functions and is used in over 300 enzymes within the body!

Any thoughts?

 

[Boondock]

It still seems like everyone's ignoring the elephant in the room here. Follicles from the back of your haid transplanted to the front don't fall out. Conversely, follicles transplanted from your balding area transplanted elsewhere do. This doesn't fit with the skull expansion hypothesis.

 

[Bryan]

It still seems like everyone's ignoring the elephant in the room here. Follicles from the back of your haid transplanted to the front don't fall out. Conversely, follicles transplanted from your balding area transplanted elsewhere do. This doesn't fit with the skull expansion hypothesis.

Exactly. Some people get tied-up in these ENDLESS discussions of various dietary factors, which probably have (at best) only a very small effect on balding. They ignore the "elephant in the room", which is that the sensitivity of a hair follicle to androgens is by far the most important factor.