Spironolactone

paulo

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Please, can i use spironolactone Cream And Folligen Cream in the same treatment?
I mean, can i apply spironolactone Cream, wait 30 minutes and then apply Folligen every night? Are there any chances of increase hair loss if i do that?

Just one more thing: Can Folligen cause an initial shedding fase?


Please, i need a reply. Thanks a lot. Sorry for mistakes.



Paulo
 

Troymaclure

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Paolo...yes you can use both in the same regimen y all means...however (assuming you are using the Folligen spray, which is the best form IMO) make sure you apply the Folligen FIRST, then maybe wait 30 mins and apply the spironolactone cream after it...if you are using minoxidil too, apply the minoxidil first, then folligen, then spironolactone in that order...in other words, spironolactone cream should always be your last topical :wink:

By the way....folligen may well sting your scalp for the first few weeks or so, this is just something you'll have to put up with at first but after a while it eases...as for shedding i suppose it could cause a minor shed but if it did it would be nothing in the same vein of a minoxidil or finasteride shed, so i wouldn't worry about it :)
 

paulo

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Thanks, Troy!

About Folligen, have you seen good results? can it really thick thinned hairs or should we expect it only from spironolactone?

And Avodart, will you use it. If so, what are you planning to take to hold the side effects?


Could you talk a little about your results and your hopes?

Thanks for your time,

best regards,

paulo
 

Troymaclure

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Paolo...i've been using Folligen for around 5 weeks now and yes i do think it is starting to help a little...my hair feels stronger if nothing else...i actually use it mixed with aloe as it was initially hurting my scalp too much (stinging) and since doing that it's much better (aloe itself is reputedly a good SOD)

i'm not sure about using Avodart just yet...i'm doing okay and i don't really want to upset anything - i've learnt my lesson once not to try and fix something that is only slightly broken ;)

i am sticking with minoxidil 5% (once a day only at night), folligen mixed with aloe (4 times a week after minoxidil) and spironolactone 4 times a week (after folligen), along with 1mg Propecia, & 1000mg Arginine to help stimulate Nitric Oxhide (sic) production ;)

if i do decide to take dutasteride, it will be 0.5mg three times a week, with Finasteride (Cipla generic) the other 4 days of the week, something like that....as for side effects, well, i suppose i would have to cross that bridge if and when i come to it

Hope this helps!
 

Troymaclure

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sorry by the way...i keep spelling your name wrong :oops:
 

paulo

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What about Paul? Just joking.

Hey, Troy, i use exactally the same things that you use, but results do not come!
Sometimes i think spironolactone is increasing the thinning process. Or it´s only my male pattern baldness that is crossing a severe phase. Oh, what a nightmare!
I´m really interested in Duta . I hope and pray for a thickennig job at my temples and on the top, at least for those hairs that i lost last year.

Thanks again, sorry for mistakes,

Paolo, ops, Paulo :D
 

Troymaclure

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i think i must just like the name Paolo....Paolo Maldini.... Paolo Di Canio :lol:

I think with spironolactone you have to adhere to the instrutions and only use a very thin layer of the stuff, not putting on big globs of cream which certainly won't be a very effective method...you need to just take a bit of extra care with it and apply a thin film gently
 

thinman

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hey troy

Thanks i finally got the haircut yesterday, now i equate the haircut experience with root canal...i went right be4 they close :lol: and was squirming like a cat at the vet!
which minoxidil do u use?
i work in a company so i cant really apply anything in the morning which will look bad and am always running late..What do u apply in the morning?lately if i shave and brush my teeth its a huge accomplishment.

Open question for every1! By the time u notice "it", how long has it been? I am not really into staring in the mirrror except for the last few months :wink: Can it be too late already? im 26, i definitely remember being ok during graduation at 22, but that other time is a whole mystery. I just feel like where the heck was i in this process. i am currently using just revigogen and nizoral for only 3 weeks or so but sh*t i wish i would have realized this a year ago.. WHen the heck did this happen was it a few months ago? 3 years ago... jeez... Has anyone here made signficant progress like went from 2 to 1, 3 to 1, 3 to a 2, a slick spot recovered, etc without the use of propecia? I guess in January after i move i will consider going that route.
oh i forgot i am also on mr oxhide's special vitamin formula...he should totally package it and sell it under his own brand name!

Thanks all
 

Troymaclure

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i don't apply anything in a morning, just at night...i had my cut last Friday - i'm glad now, because it looks a lot thicker than it was when it was dead long a week ago, and a lot easier to style too...it's just that ritual of going to the hairdressers i hate, it's horrible, they're sadistic...i always go first thing in a morning so i'm the first customer :D

i remember at about the time of my graduation i never worried about my hair, in fact i remember having that stupid mortar-board hat on and off all day long and stuff...i think it must have been about 22 or 23 for me i noticed a general thinning...for a while i had put it down to the fact i had been on a drug called Oxytetracycline for about 6 months, which i was taking for a skin condition...then once that cleared up and i was off the medication and i had no counter-worry, then the hairloss issue gradually became more & more the focus of my attention :?
 

MrTelogen

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Thinman,glad to hear you haircut is over.LOL, I have to get mine done "after Thanksgiving" because I will see people tomorrow that I have not seen in years, and to have a possibly screwed haircut would really suck. I found out that the woman who has been cutting my mother's hair for years is also someone I HATED in high school.hehe She has a salon in her home so I may have to just chance it.
Man I hated that b**ch.Long ago, I know, and people change but.......I'm in need of a cut badly. I also just found out that we are related by marriage of all sh*t! jeSUS! I have dreams of getting my hair cut like a normal human being.Imagine that.
 

thinman

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telogen

I understand, go real early or real late to get it done...I felt it was like mission impossible, i wonder where i could get one of those masks lol!
 

Troymaclure

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Question For Rocky

Rocky, how's it going pal...hope you're still knocking around to read this...basically was just flicking through some old posts and in December 2001 you said you had just ordered some lipoxidil 2% spironolactone and were going to use it in place of Dr. Lee's 5% - i just want to know how you got on with it, do you still use it,and most importantly how long did a bottle of the stuff last ;)

cheers
 

Mark1

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spironolactone / etc...

Troymaclure,

I have not gotten on the site in a while. I got on when the format changed and registered but did not see a lot of communication at the time and felt it would be good to leave for a while. I was looking through the posts hoping something new and revolutionairy had come out. I see dutasteride is now out but not FDA approved. I like you am not ready to make that move just yet.

Recalling my history we seem to have the same characteristics of male pattern baldness along with the same time aloud to address it, (night time). I saw from your last post you have kept to the same program however added folligen and 1000 mg of Arginine. I have kept to my regimin of 1.25 mg of proscar but have not remained strict on the 5% spironolactone and the 5% minoxidil with .025 % retinoic Acid. One of my New Years Resolutions is to get back to my regimin. I am ready to put in an order but wanted to see if there was anything I should add or change. What do you think. I have now been on the Proscar consistantly for 2 years. I still have the same condition which is moderate recession in the temples area and minimal if at all overall loss. I am most interested in maintaining the overall and obtaining a better hair line in the temple area forward.

Isn't there now a liposomes application of spironolactone and or minoxidil and if so what have you heard about it ?

What are you using for your shampoo and conditioner ?

What are SODS ? Never got a true explanation but know they are needed ?

What have you heard lately about the surgery option and is it one you would consider for fill in. I am always interested but would be terrified. Also I am not real happy with the fact that the fill in would always stay with me and the other could and probably would continue to recess. You may turn out to later on look a little different.

Do you really like the folligen and the Arginine ?

Have you heard of anything working well especially for the temple/front hairline region ?

If you recommend anything to add please provide where I can get it also. Looking forward to your response.

PS. Do you ever speak with any of the other guys I remember like Pete2000, Rocky, and their were a few others that were real knowledgeable

THx Mark1
 

Troymaclure

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hi Mark,

i too don't use the 5% spironolactone very often nowadays...in fact i've not used it for over a week now, i'm finding my enthusiasm towards spending much time or money on this thing waning a little now - i use minoxidil 5% once a day at night (or minoxidil 5% w/retin-a) - a few nights a week i apply a folligen / aloe mix after the minoxidil.....every other day i use Nizoral - internals are propecia & arginine 1000mg, though the latter is often interchanged with 1000mg lysine for periods of time on & off :D BTW, the 1000mg arginine is not a serious hair loss tool really, for the benefits it could offer hair wise you would need around 3000mg a day....i just take 1000mg a) to keep some kind of NO stimulus active internally and b) it helped with a little "softness" i seemed to be getting :wink:

SOD is an acronym for Super Oxide Dismutase....let Dr. Maclure explain as follows:

Q: What is a SOD?

A: Superoxide dismutase. This is an enzyme produced by the body to neutralize the superoxide radical. Superoxide is a messenger of inflammation and is involved in the body's autoimmune response. It exists in a yin-yang relationship with nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is a vasodilator that appears to be important for hair growth, while superoxide is a vasoconstrictor that may be part of the signaling mechanism that tells hair to stop growing. Superoxide can also interact with nitric oxide to form a highly destructive free radical called peroxynitrite, which causes protein and lipid oxidation. A few hair products contain copper peptides, which are SOD mimetics; i.e., mimic the effects of the body's SOD enzyme. SOD-containing products have been noted a number of times by researchers to stimulate hair growth and block hair loss in mice. Recent study data on Tricomin, a copper peptide SOD, indicates increased hair growth in male pattern baldness. Among other beneficial things, SODs appear to help spare growth-stimulating nitric oxide, reduce damaging inflammation, and help reverse fibrosis (follicular scarring). There are a few patents for SODs as hair growth stimulators and even one for an SOD inhibitor that blocks hair growth by increasing superoxide.


Folligen has a higher concentration of copper peptides and is also cheaper than tricomin....both were created by a Dr. Loren Pickart (visit his site http://www.skinbiology.com), though he no longer promotes his tricomin formula....incidentally, the reason i use a Folligen / aloe mixture is because Aloe Vera is also a powerful SOD yet at the same time offers excellent skin-soothing properties (as folligen spray alone can be a little harsh & stingy)

If i were you, to maintain that hair you have i would use:

1mg Propecia
5% minoxidil / 5% minoxidil w/retin-a (alternate) once a day
Nizoral 2% 3 x week (leaving in for at least 5 mins)

IMO everything else is optional, you could try folligen or even the Zinc/B6 formula if you wanted, personally i'm not a fan of spironolactone so i wouldn't keep that in a serious regimen - two topicals max. in my opinion...at least at a time anyway - you can always change these topicals every 6 months or so if the ones you currently use aren't showing much promise, but i wouldn't use everything at once
 

crashdummie

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check this out, its a sweet moma :D

by the looks of this, spironolactone the SH$T

i got this out of the old archives, this bryan guy wrote it, he was a very knowledgable dude; even for 3 years ago

pretty much the article medical stuff goes on to say that spironolactone blocks DHT by 67% :D chaaachig




The oldtimers here will recall that for years Dr. P has occasionally
referred to a certain unspecified medical study that found that
spironolactone has a VERY high affinity for the androgen receptor;
indeed, that it binds to the androgen receptor with fully 2/3 of the
affinity that DHT itself has!

I recently stumbled across the study while looking for something
else. This would be: "The Use of Human Skin Fibroblasts
to Obtain Potency Estimates of Drug Binding to Androgen
Receptors", Eil and Edelson, J Clin Endocrinol Metab 59:51, 1984.

They found that spironolactone had BY FAR the strongest binding
affinity for the human androgen receptor of all the antiandrogens
they tested, and this included cyproterone acetate and flutamide
(NOT hydroxyflutamide). I'm going to reproduce the entire list
of substances that they tested, and the Relative Binding Affinity
that they measured for each one, expressed as a percentage of DHT
itself. A couple of brief notes, first: at the top of the list are R1881,
DHT, and testosterone, all with relative binding affinities set at 100%.
R1881 is a powerful synthetic androgen that's frequently used in
studies like this because it's not metabolized into anything else.
It "stays put", in other words! And you'll probably wonder why
testosterone is also listed at 100% along with DHT. This is the
actual result they measured, and apparently is because after they
added the testosterone to the cell culture, most of it was
metabolized into DHT by 5alpha-reductase.

Here's the complete list of substances they tested, and their RBAs.
They are listed in descending order of activity. Afterwards I'll have
a couple of interesting quotes from the study:

R1881 (methyltrienolone, a powerful synthetic androgen)
100.0

DHT
100.0

Testosterone
100.0

Spironolactone (our good friend spironolactone!)
67.0

Danazol (an androgen agonist)
41.4

R2956 (a synthetic antiandrogen from Roussel-UCLAF)
14.8

Megesterol acetate
13.6

Cyproterone acetate
12.5

Medroxyprogesterone acetate
11.6

Progesterone
6.6

Estradiol
4.9

Androstenedione
2.0

Canrenone
0.84

4-Hydroxyandrostenedione
0.79

17-Hydroxyprogesterone (note: this is NOT 11alpha-hydroxyprogesterone)
0.42

Flutamide
0.079

MSD L-642,317 (this is in the finasteride family of compounds)
0.038

Testolactone
0.0029

Cimetidine
0.00084

MSD L-642,022 (another in the finasteride family)
<0.0005

Diphenylhydantoin
<0.0005

Diazoxide (this is a drug similar to minoxidil)
<0.0005

That's the complete list. Now here are some comments from the
"Discussion" section: "The advantages of using dispersed cultured
fibroblasts for the comparison are 2-fold: 1) the receptors are from
human cells, and 2) the cells are intact, and therefore, the assay
system simulates *in vitro* many of the characteristics of the *in vivo*
interactions of the compounds with androgen target tissues, such as
nuclear localization. The disadvantages include the fact that these
*in vitro* receptor studies do not define whether an inhibitor of binding
is an agonist or antagonist *in vivo*. Also, metabolism of the
compounds to more or less potent congeners, which may occur after
clinical use of these drugs, may not be reproduced in the dispersed
cell fibroblast assay system. This may account for the unexpected
high potency of spironolactone, which is cleared rapidly *in vivo*,
and the unexpected low potency of flutamide, which may require
hydroxylation for full antiandrogenic activity..."

"...The results of this study indicate that spironolactone is an
extremely effective competitor for the androgen receptor, even
more potent than previously reported by others. This probably
accounts for its therapeutic efficacy in hirsute women and for the
high frequency of impotence and gynecomastia in men given the
drug. If it can be administered in a form that minimizes its
metabolism to canrenone, a much weaker androgen receptor
binder, then its antiandrogenicity *in vivo* may be even further
enhanced. This could be of potentially great benefit to patients with
hirsutism, acne, prostatic hypertrophy and/or carcinoma, and other
disorders thought to be due to excess androgen action."

Bryan
 

Troymaclure

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even so, i'm not convinced that the cream vehicle used by Dr. Lee is very effective at delivering the drug to enable it to compete at the androgen receptor sites....i want to hear people's results on the lipoxidil spironolactone or even dr. lee's alcohol spironolactone if possible :)
 

Troymaclure

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well, i'm not too familiar with Revivogen...if it has an alcohol delivery system then you could certainly try dissolving 2%'s worth of Spironolactone tablets in there, but i don't know for how long the solution would remain stable...my guess would be not long :?

a better thing to do would be to apply Revivogen, then apply spironolactone about a hlaf-hour after it :D
 

BrdiePutt

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I'm considering using a DHT inhibitor in combo with my 5% Rogaine 2x/day and 5x a week folligen. I was considering getting Crinage, because I've heard some pretty good reviews on it. Now I'm thinking that Crinagen might be better because it has a little more scientific proof behind it?

Any thoughts? Although 5% Rogaine after 2 months has finally made my hair loss when I run my hand through a wet scalp drop down to like 2-4, I need more.
 
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