Started RU58841

[Hoppi]

don't just apply it like minoxidil. You need to rub it in vigourousely if not RU won't penetrate well through the top layer of the skin.

El dutasteride, If you use Retin-A as well as a Dermaroller, this should increase the scalps uptake of RU as you are creating holes for the RU to get closer to the follicle AND effectively removing a fine layer of your skin.

Regardless it should still be rubbed in vigourousely, however would this make a substantial difference?

Seriously if i don't regrow most of my lost hair after everything im trying i will be supprised AND devistated lol

Yeah you deserve success man, you really do. You've gone for it with far more focus and commitment than I ever could, and I do watch your regimen as I find it quite interesting! I find some things on it a little low dose such as hyaluronic acid, RU and just taking soy isoflavones alone, but it really depends on their purpose

 

[karlg]

don't just apply it like minoxidil. You need to rub it in vigourousely if not RU won't penetrate well through the top layer of the skin.

El dutasteride, If you use Retin-A as well as a Dermaroller, this should increase the scalps uptake of RU as you are creating holes for the RU to get closer to the follicle AND effectively removing a fine layer of your skin.

Regardless it should still be rubbed in vigourousely, however would this make a substantial difference?

Seriously if i don't regrow most of my lost hair after everything im trying i will be supprised AND devistated lol

Yeah you deserve success man, you really do. You've gone for it with far more focus and commitment than I ever could, and I do watch your regimen as I find it quite interesting! I find some things on it a little low dose such as hyaluronic acid, RU and just taking soy isoflavones alone, but it really depends on their purpose

Thank you hoppi

I am very determined to find a solution to this problem (or one that works for me) once and for all. It's a case of i simply can not loose, or, i wont let myself loose.

True, some of the things which are at a smaller dose are suppliments ive got from Tesco, i had these from a while back and am working through them, as i have the cash i will be replacing them with suppliments at higher doses. All of the other suppliments etc i got from Biovea.

The Hyaluronic Acid says 40mg on the front but the ingredients are as listed below:

Hydrolyzed Collagen Type II Complex => 400mg
Chondroltin Sulfate => 80-mg
Hyaluronic Acid => 40mg

What would be the recomended dose of H.Acid? The Dosing instructions recommend 1 pill a day, however, im still trying to work out my regime, as there is quite alot to it!

The soya isoflavins are the tesco ones, ive got like 2 left so will be ordering them at a higher dose shortly when i have the cash I have scan read the Equol Thread and it's mentioned in there, i will have to have a proper read through that and take it from there.

You say the RU is a low dose? 150mg a day? I was on 100mg a day which i may cut back down to, as wierdly enough over the past 2 weeks of 150mg a day ive actually lost a bit of ground, however this is week 4 or 5 of minoxidil which could have something to do with it. im also going to lower it to 100mg/3ml (2.5 Alc. .5ppg) and be a bit more efficient when applying it, due to costs etc....

I am also thinking of starting to use Greet Tea Extract and Caffine to, Just started Retin-A, will have to slowly work up to the 7 days a week application. When i first got it i applied it (a bit too generously), i did it 2 days in a row, then thought, hold back for a bit and on the 3rd day, skin was peeling everywhere, and my head was burning! lol.

I know im going for the everything but the kitchen sink method here (well, *nearly* everything....) but i really want results. If i can cover as many different areas as possible, something has to work. I'll then stick with it untill ive had a decent ammount of regrowth and wouldnt mind sacraficing some hair. Then slowly but surely ween off and drop each treatment one by one and wait to see when i start loosing ground, then i will know what is working.

Although, with the suppliments i will probobly stick with most of those even if it turns out they are not doing anything for my hair, as since starting alot of them i feel quite good .

Drinking, ahhhhh my poison, i am putting my foot down and cutting back dramatically. Ive just cleared my Tab(s) so i owe no one nothing, 4 days of sobre'ness and im detoxing like mad, sweating when i sleep, when i get home, randomly throughout the day, im covered in spots all over my back and i wont go into the `other` details as to why i know my body is `flushing` out the bad stuff, but i cant keep blowing that sort of money, i read a thread the other day too, explaining what sort of effects drink has on hormones which effect hair, and it's another angle to cover. Plus it's not like it's a bad thing if it doesnt work.

Smoking on the other hand....that's going to be the hardest thing, however with Drink being a very reliable trigger for smoking gone, i stand a better chance at cutting down drastically and adventually stopping.

Im going to the docters with a list of things i think may be wrong with me and why, along side getting the levels of hormones etc in my blood checked, and covering that angle too, as i do think something(s) is wrong with me, whether or not it effects my hair, it's best to get checked out.

 

[hairandthere]

I do think if ANY company were to commercialize RU (even a small company) it would get cheaper as demand increased. And I suppose there must be ways of making it legal, as its sold already after all. I think more companies should be looking at this.

Actually, the patent runs out in 2012. The companies that sell it are from China and they are selling only the power under R&D purposes.

Commercializing it would require licensing it from the patent holder. AFAIK, Proskelia was sold to Galapagos in 2006.

I would also add that spironolactone does little to nothing from previous experience (cream and liquid) and is probably negligible in almost any regimen IMO.

 

[BitchBoy]

I measure it out each day. Only takes a minute.

 

[thinincrown]

It is an expensive upfront commitment, but really I think you could make a 10 gram batch, ($450/ batch) using solution of 25mg a day mixture, last you a year.

Thats $37.50 per month. I think that figure is close anyway....

I can spend a little more, so I will be making a 50 mg mixture per day. Unsure if I will keep on the Fluridil, but I know for a fact that stuff has worked for me. I dropped proscar 4 months ago, and never had a shed at all.

Its made my exisitng hair stronger, and I dont see sh*tloads of hair in my hands anymore after applying other topicals. I added spironolactone for some extra insurance about a month ago, but once I get my RU I will drop it.

 

[thinincrown]

I forgot to mention that I do use 2 vials per day of the Fluridil, not just one.

 

[hairandthere]

Do be aware of the amounts used in the studies as well.

For example, the macaque studies used 25mg per 50cm2 of area for their 0.5mL 5% solution. Their 1% 5mg solution used over 50cm2 only showed maintenance as well as negative vellous hair progression.

The 25mg per 50cm2 showed positive results in both thickening and conversion of vellous to terminal.

The study here:
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... type=HWCIT

In my own opinion (certainly not trying to tell you what to do or how much to use), and since RU isn't going to have as strong as results in humans as it does in macaques, 25mg would be a very small amount to use to even expect maintenance unless you are maybe only applying it to one temple in a small area.

Again, in my own opinion, I think that results from RU would indeed unfortunately come at a high financial cost. In one documented case, http://www.hairlosshelp.com/html/RU5884 ... erview.cfm , the person uses 30-50mg twice per day of RU 58841 in a liposomic vehicle which studies have shown to be 3 to 4 times as effective as an alcohol based vehicle. And he was using up to 100mg a day of liposomic vehicle!

I would also be skeptical of what anyone else on any forum claims or says about RU and how well it works and how much to use unless it is documented in a study. Sorry, but there are far too many variable to consider when taking one user's word input over the internet about a drug such as RU. Unfortunately, the only human studies done by Proskelia are not available for us to look at.

 

[Hoppi]

karlg - yeah man I know what you mean I have been trying to improve my health, but as my focus is on collagen and DHT I have confidence that those are THE factors in this. Circulation and thyroid.. are possible, but they have never been a problem for the rest of my life. And I feel like I have to pinpoint something, you know?

Oh and sorry I was wrong about the RU dose, to be honest I think again I wrote that on my phone so it was tricky to re-read your regimen and I remembered your dose being different. 150 is probably totally fine.

As for hyaluronic and soy, it really depends as I say what you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to use soy to lower DHT then I believe combining it with green tea creates a large drop, and the very best thing to do ofc is to make equol, which involves creating the right conditions in your gut to make it (hence the Densiti approach ).

Hyaluronic, I am currently on roughly 300mg a day (6 tablets) which I know is high (especially as I'm taking usually collagen, GSE, etc etc as well) but I do have skin issues. If your skin is ok, then perhaps it's not as necessary. LIke I am chatting to one guy who is only 17 with no skin issues, lots of body hair and hair loss, so the problem probably has little or nothing to do with circulation or collagen, and everything to do with testosterone and/or DHT levels (or the genetic sensitivity of his follicles to them). We are all different I guess

So, what level of success do you think you're having so far? Maintenance, thickening, full regrowth? I keep considering getting lazy and giving in to my genes just because it makes life simpler, but I just know I couldn't stand to lose my hair, and I intend to fight for it!

 

[karlg]

karlg - yeah man I know what you mean I have been trying to improve my health, but as my focus is on collagen and DHT I have confidence that those are THE factors in this. Circulation and thyroid.. are possible, but they have never been a problem for the rest of my life. And I feel like I have to pinpoint something, you know?

Oh and sorry I was wrong about the RU dose, to be honest I think again I wrote that on my phone so it was tricky to re-read your regimen and I remembered your dose being different. 150 is probably totally fine.

As for hyaluronic and soy, it really depends as I say what you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to use soy to lower DHT then I believe combining it with green tea creates a large drop, and the very best thing to do ofc is to make equol, which involves creating the right conditions in your gut to make it (hence the Densiti approach ).

Hyaluronic, I am currently on roughly 300mg a day (6 tablets) which I know is high (especially as I'm taking usually collagen, GSE, etc etc as well) but I do have skin issues. If your skin is ok, then perhaps it's not as necessary. LIke I am chatting to one guy who is only 17 with no skin issues, lots of body hair and hair loss, so the problem probably has little or nothing to do with circulation or collagen, and everything to do with testosterone and/or DHT levels (or the genetic sensitivity of his follicles to them). We are all different I guess

So, what level of success do you think you're having so far? Maintenance, thickening, full regrowth? I keep considering getting lazy and giving in to my genes just because it makes life simpler, but I just know I couldn't stand to lose my hair, and I intend to fight for it!

Where do you get your hyaluronic acid from? if i took about the same ammount as you do per month, it would cost me about £50 a month, which is too much. My hyaluronic acid contains hydrogenized collagen, which i feel i could benefit from, hair wise and overall. ive done alot of smoking which ive read somewhere does mess with your collagen.

Im not having much success at the moment, my hair hasnt really gotten *that* much worse, i was making some progress with my hairline, but i have been messing around with doses of RU etc, im thinking of making a small, 7-8% solution for my hairline, and a 5% for the rest of my hair.

I would say ive lost a bit of ground recently but i believe thats more down to minoxidil, at least i hope it is. Iv'e got to stop wearing my hat all the time in this weather. im sure its not helping my situation. im aiming for full regrowth, well, maybe not to where i was before this started, it'd be nice, although somewhere close to that point.

I have been to the docters for the pain in my gut, and they have pescribed Mepradec, which contains 20mg Omepeazole. Reading the side effects, they have hair loss listed under the `very rarely you may experience` section. Ive got to take em for 2 weeks to see if it goes away, if it doesnt then they know what it `isnt`.... Aparantly Thyroid n everything is ok, and T levels were alright / normal about 6 weeks into taking finasteride when i was.

 

[Hoppi]

What did the doctor say it was anyway? I would imagine that usually a really good diet, lots of water and exercise and cutting out common allergens (gluten, dairy and stuff) at least for a bit should alleviate most general health concerns like that.

And yeah smoking does mess up collagen I think, it's one of my top suspects for messing up my skin and man I am never, EVER doing it again ._. heh

Taurine is a good one to take I think as well for collagen, as it apparently eases up the collagen hardening, which is ofc very bad for follicles. Taurine almost seems like the internal equivalent to something like Aminexil.

Oh, hyaluronic, I get it off ebay. It costs me £15 for 30-60 50mg tablets (depending on the company I go with on there), so I have just been taking lots, as one lady said she took 300mg a day for a couple of weeks and noticed significant collagen improvement. I am really going for it right now.

Oh, check out this one too, it looks really good for collagen:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/drsmo ... epair.html

Some others on there look great too


Have you considered equol? If nothing else I think it's a fantastic addition to 5ar inhibitors, but it should be enough by itself. Should be. We'll find out

 

[karlg]

i found these on ebay :

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HYALURONIC-ACID-C ... 483a99ee71

So in order to hit 300mg a day, i'd have to buy 3 bottles for a month. this is substantially cheaper then the ones ive got now, and it contains more collagen too.

I cant remember exactly what he said it was, short term memory is a bit fluffed (damn the weed!). The other thing i remember he did say was it could be something to do with my nervous system (we have 2 aparantly, one which we use for most things such as picking stuff up, moving around etc..., and one which controlls our gut, and other organs)

im still very cautious about taking these due to the fact that hair loss is listed as one of the `very rare` sides, however ive come to take all warnings on medication with a pinch of salt, as i dont believe the statistics on finasteride sides. Thats destroyed my faith in the drug industry, however if it is an issue, (whether its related to hair loss or not) it needs to be sorted out. plus he said i only have to take them for 2 weeks and then come back, so its not too bad.

I will check out Taurine and Aminexil. Doesnt fibrosis have something to do with hardening of collagen where the follicle is/used to grow?

 

[Hoppi]

i found these on ebay :

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HYALURONIC-ACID-C ... 483a99ee71

So in order to hit 300mg a day, i'd have to buy 3 bottles for a month. this is substantially cheaper then the ones ive got now, and it contains more collagen too.

I cant remember exactly what he said it was, short term memory is a bit fluffed (damn the weed!). The other thing i remember he did say was it could be something to do with my nervous system (we have 2 aparantly, one which we use for most things such as picking stuff up, moving around etc..., and one which controlls our gut, and other organs)

im still very cautious about taking these due to the fact that hair loss is listed as one of the `very rare` sides, however ive come to take all warnings on medication with a pinch of salt, as i dont believe the statistics on finasteride sides. Thats destroyed my faith in the drug industry, however if it is an issue, (whether its related to hair loss or not) it needs to be sorted out. plus he said i only have to take them for 2 weeks and then come back, so its not too bad.

I will check out Taurine and Aminexil. Doesnt fibrosis have something to do with hardening of collagen where the follicle is/used to grow?

Yeah, I think it also actually hardens around the follicle, meaning it finds it more difficult to grow again for anagen phase. As I understand anyway.. I don't think that was JUST L'Oreal advertising! lol

And yeah it is a fair few tablets and that to get 300mg of hyaluronic a day, but then it may well not be necessary unless you really want to rebuild collagen and repair skin damage (as I do!).

Yeah I'm not sure about the pains and nervous system thing.. try to just live healthily for a while I think and see if the problem gradually eases Try the drug if you want.. maybe look up about it a bit online or something.

And yeah I think the finasteride sides are understated too.. I don't intend to use that stuff again...

I do think my skin is improving but it's VERY early to tell.. my goal is to in some way get my hair completely under control again by Uni in September! I don't wanna be worrying about it while I'm trying to do a course and spend lots of productive time getting drunk xD

 

[karlg]

Yeah, I think it also actually hardens around the follicle, meaning it finds it more difficult to grow again for anagen phase. As I understand anyway.. I don't think that was JUST L'Oreal advertising! lol

And yeah it is a fair few tablets and that to get 300mg of hyaluronic a day, but then it may well not be necessary unless you really want to rebuild collagen and repair skin damage (as I do!).

Yeah I'm not sure about the pains and nervous system thing.. try to just live healthily for a while I think and see if the problem gradually eases Try the drug if you want.. maybe look up about it a bit online or something.

And yeah I think the finasteride sides are understated too.. I don't intend to use that stuff again...

I do think my skin is improving but it's VERY early to tell.. my goal is to in some way get my hair completely under control again by Uni in September! I don't wanna be worrying about it while I'm trying to do a course and spend lots of productive time getting drunk xD

Would this help with softening / reversing the hardening effect?

either it works by suppressing the immune system, or the reversal/breakdown of fibrotic tissue.

side effects can occur but in that alopecia areata study only a few people had them and dropped out.

i would love to see what this can do on male pattern baldness, in a clinical setting! i think it is promising., to possibly reverse the fibrotic damage associated with male pattern baldness, which occurs in the temples early on in life.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=60014

The pains have faded substantially on their own atm, i can still feel it, and even more so if i think about it, but its nothing to how it was, but saying that ive cut down to eating two things a day, and no alcohol for 9 days now, could be one or the other, did both at the same time so cant vouch for either one. i havnt taken any of those pills yet, may start them 2moz monrin. Maybe i did have some damage or inflamation there or something, and now my body has flushed most of the crap out of my system, it's actually getting back to fixing itself, (drinking alot every day/every other day prolly keeps the body busy flushing and fixing the problems that causes), oh and i can wake up now and NOT feel like crap.

I've got this horrible feeling that finasteride up'ed my test shortly after that blood test, and as a result uped the ammount of eastrogen in my system (and doesnt alcohol up estrodil which causes more eastrogen in your system)? anyway, i say this because even though i drunk alot, in the past if i took a break for a week, the man boobs and stomach fat would just drop off me, whereas 10 days in, and theres not really any noticable change.

Im thinking of going on a weak aromatose inhibitor just to see if this makes any difference, probobly something natural as i dont want to knock the *** out of my E with any sythetic drugs, Isnt grape seed extract ment to be good for this?

i also found this : http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/arindom.html

Chrysin: Found in the herb Passiflora incarnata, the flavone chrysin is a potent natural aromatase inhibitor. In a study published 1993 chrysin and 10 other flavonoids were compared to an aromatase-inhibiting drug (aminoglutethimide). Chrysin was the most potent aromatase-inhibitor, and was shown to be similar in potency and effectiveness to the aromatase-inhibiting drug. The scientists conducting the study concluded by stating that the aromatase-inhibiting effects of certain flavonoids may contribute to the cancer preventive effects of plant-based diets. (1)

Apigenin: Found in most species of Chamomile, the flavone apigenin is also a safe and effective aromatase inhibitor, with an inhibitory effectiveness about equal to chrysin. (2)

Isoflavones: The isoflavones in soy, most notably genistein and diadzein were shown in studies to be potent aromatase inhibitors (4)

Would these be more effective then Grape Seed Extract? and would they be good for guys thinking of going on finasteride but are worried about the whole eastrogen thing?

I ask as even though i dont like finasteride, i dont like the idea of loosing my hair alot more. But due to some of the sides i get from finasteride, would taking an AI at the same time help this? So lower DHT, Lower E with an AI, and then let high dose RU do it's magic as it blocks T and DHT? So the extra T could be countered with RU, any possible sides related to E wouldnt really happen, and i assume Higher T would = more sex drive + more feeling like a man?

And if the above is corrent and makes sense, would this make doing exercise easier?

How long have you been on your high dose Hyaluronic acid for? Also, if Taurine is good for preventing / reversing the hardening of follicles how much would be an aproprite dose for those effects?

As ive found taurine suppliments online and it seems pretty cheap.

In terms of collagen, or improving it, even though im not sure its related to my hair loss (id like it to be, then at least part of the mystery is solved), i think it's something id like to do anyways, ive got fine `wrinkles` above my mouth which point to the sides of my nose, and 2 across my forhead. i dont think that's due to minoxidil as i noticed this before i started it. Im going to be focusing my efforts on improving other factors of my body too, to kind of take my mind of the whole hair thing, otherwise i just sit there in the afternoons feeling sh*t, and making repeat trips to the mirror to look for even the faintest signs of regrowth. I feel improving my body would probobly be easier / quicker to do then my hair, so at least i can feel im making progress with something rather then just spending my life fighting (what feels like) a loosing battle with myself.

Hoppi, do you mind if i ask what caused your collagen loss? or what happened just before you lost it? as these wrinkles n such, ive noticed, and other possibly collagen related cosmetic defects, happened shortly after taking a f*ck load of dodgy / wierd drugs towards the end of last year.

Even though i had hair loss before this, it was nothing compared to what it is now.


you wna be carefull about getting drunk at uni, how pissed off would you be if you got smashed, and woke up with a shaven head the next morning after all this?

 

[Hoppi]

Heya man sorry for the late response I've been a bit distracted recently! Plus I'm giving my new regimen some time to see if I notice any changes

For aromatase inhibitors I believe DIM/I3C are quite good, but GSE and resveratrol would probably be fine too. For fibrosis, I dont know much about that drug but I would imagine that and taurine are both reasonable solutions! I take 500mg a day right now

It is my opinion too that an aromatase inhibitor should decrease estrogenic sides. However, although as you say more T will make one feel more like a man, low 5ar or particularly low DHT are probably not so good for one's "manliness"!

As for what triggered my skin change, I dont fully know. My first guesses are cortisol, smoking, or a combination of the two. I also think thyroid and insulin are possibilities, and general poor diet, but I feel this is less likely.

As for RU and stuff, one would imagine that the combination of a 5ar inhibitor (finasteride, Revivogen etc), a receptor blocker (RU, spironolactone) and...

 

[Hoppi]

... possibly a receptor degrader (fluridil) is a pretty potent mix. And then of course something like equol which lowers DHT would also be good. Sorry for the split post btw - I'm on my phone again!

I do know what you mean about alcohol, its just I want to have fun and I think its unfair to have to put your whole life on hold or change your whole life just because of one hormone, you know? I dont drink as often as I used to, but at the same time I'm still in my 20s and I want to enjoy myself ^_^ hehe

 

[Bryan]

i also found this : http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/arindom.html

Chrysin: Found in the herb Passiflora incarnata, the flavone chrysin is a potent natural aromatase inhibitor. In a study published 1993 chrysin and 10 other flavonoids were compared to an aromatase-inhibiting drug (aminoglutethimide). Chrysin was the most potent aromatase-inhibitor, and was shown to be similar in potency and effectiveness to the aromatase-inhibiting drug.

Would these be more effective then Grape Seed Extract? and would they be good for guys thinking of going on finasteride but are worried about the whole eastrogen thing?

Chrysin doesn't work to inhibit aromatase in vivo (in living animals, in other words). Don't waste your money buying chrysin from unscrupulous companies whe are more than eager to take advantage of you.

 

[Rework24]

One thing I have noticed, my scalp is very flaky since starting using RU. Is this a result of the alcohol/PG drying out my scalp?

 

[razman]

Anyone knows any UK RU users here. And is there any issues in getting RU from the two Chinese firms.???

 

[razman]

This sounds good, I have also heard good about fluridi. I am from UK too... I am norwood 1.5 as well but i have slowly reached there in the last 14 years. with proper styling though i could pass as a norwood 0 cos my hair is very thick. How much does fluridl costs you/month? and where do buy it from??

 

[Rework24]

Added Eucapil to my regimen and will be reducing hair shampooing to twice per week!