The Relationship Between Caffeine Growth And Cox Inhibition

[HairCook]

I can keep on finasteride, i've on it 3months no sides to far, so im just looking for things toa dd into my regimen.
Any specifict type of vitC? Or with any serum i'll be fine?
What do you think about applying voltaren on the hairline vellus hairs and slick bald temples? I heard ot decreases COX but at the same time a guy on this forum had success with it.
Im just hoping fevi gets released now...

Ascorbic Acid should be fine anways. Check the available studies, it has a few metabolites which did prove to reduce Dkk1 expression.
As long as it is liposomal everything should be the same.

 

[bridgeburn]

If you want a prostaglandin modulator take Sulfasalazine or even better, test its active form mesalamine which can also be used topically unlike sulf (which makes your head yellow lol). I tried ordering powder cause it was listed online prescription free, sadly they didnt wanna sell it to me... It is supposed to have also less sides than sulf.

I don't know if its true, but i read somewhere that Sulfa downregulates b-catenin.

however, pge2 upregulates its so..

 

[spollardo]

also something like minoxidil can continue to keep working as long as theres no androgens to antagonize it.

Here I assume you mean also with continued use of minoxidil? i.e. to main. I heard that new hairs grown from PGE2 expression should remain even after you remove the extra PGE2 provided you are maintaining with androgen inhibition?

ib my oponion the best recipe for regrowth is
a powerful antiandrogen+ estrogen+ dutasteride+ minoxidil

By antiandrogen you mean something like spironolactone? Seperate from DHT blockers? And you use something like this, what exactly?

Westconli has a thread on here and he has been taking high doses of oral seti and only minor success. from what ive seen basically just maintaince or maybe slightly above baseline.
he is not on finasteride or dutasteride or minoxidil though and PGD2 is not the only negative growth factor in hairloss.

I've seen Westconli's seti progress and in fairness I think we should give him more time. You say that PGD2 is not the only negative growth factor but isn't is basically just further down the path from DHT/T miniaturization and therefore inhibition of this in great amounts should bypass the androgen issue?

also, @HairCook has an interesting theory that Swiss's success was also because of the previous "skin eating chemicals" he experimented with before switching to prostaglandin protocol. necause this broke up some of the fibrotic tissue first. one of the documented differences between bald and hairy scalp is that there ismuch more fibrotic elastic fibers in bald scalp.

Surely the microneedling that he was doing is what would be breaking up fibrotic tissue given that's historically been one of its main purposes?
Also would you happen to have a place to read about extra scar tissue in the bald scalp and the reasons for it?

Hello spollardo.

Yeralt

Hey Yeralt

 

[bridgeburn]

Here I assume you mean also with continued use of minoxidil?

yes i meant with continued use.

I heard that new hairs grown from PGE2 expression should remain even after you remove the extra PGE2 provided you are maintaining with androgen inhibition?

about Pge2 specifically, I don't know. but minoxidil is something you definitely don't to stop all of a sudden, and part of what minoxidil does is increase pge2.

By antiandrogen you mean something like spironolactone? Seperate from DHT blockers? And you use something like this, what exactly?

yes. i mean receptor blockers. not 5ar inhibitors. i use cyproterone sometimes.

I've seen Westconli's seti progress and in fairness I think we should give him more time. You say that PGD2 is not the only negative growth factor but isn't is basically just further down the path from DHT/T miniaturization and therefore inhibition of this in great amounts should bypass the androgen issue?

he's been using a protanglandin based approach for a long time. but yes, we should give more to for his new higher dose of seti since he was using lower doses in the past.
I begin to see new fuzzies within 2 months of using an extreme anti androgen regimen.
right its not the only negative effect, removing it is definitely a good thing though. its one of the paths of T/DHT. paths branch out from each other and in turn affect many things, like chains of reaction. I don't believe that only blocking Pgd2 will regrow all your hair, but you are welcome to try.

Surely the microneedling that he was doing is what would be breaking up fibrotic tissue given that's historically been one of its main purposes?

yes, but Swiss experimented with other things before the prostanglandin protocol. he mentioned using a chemical, i forgot the name maybe calcium chloride? or something which grew him little stubble but they never continued to grow after that point, well until he started his prostanglandin regimens. its written on his blog.
microneedling is also supossed to increase positive growth signals.

Also would you happen to have a place to read about extra scar tissue in the bald scalp and the reasons for it?

it was also discussed in the thread i linked earlier.
"It was found that collagen bundles were significantly increased in balding vertexes than in non-balding occiput scalp skin. A near 4-fold increase in elastic fibers was observed in both vertex and occiput scalp skins with MPHL versus controls."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18286292

 

[spollardo]

yes. i mean receptor blockers. not 5ar inhibitors. i use cyproterone sometimes.

You only use anti androgens on and off? Wouldn't you need to maintain constant usage for it to be effective? Or is your idea that you get regrowth with anti androgens and then maintain with dht inhibitors?

Also if you're on anti androgens would finasteride/dutasteride even be necessary?

. its one of the paths of T/DHT. paths branch out from each other and in turn affect many things, like chains of reaction. I don't believe that only blocking Pgd2 will regrow all your hair, but you are welcome to try.

So you think androgens go own different pathways that can loss as well? If that's the case then wouldn't you want to continue taking finasteride/dutasteride even if you were on seti/fevi?

he mentioned using a chemical, i forgot the name maybe calcium chloride? or something which grew him little stubble but they never continued to grow after that point, well until he started his prostanglandin regimens. its written on his blog

Right... But surely if its breaking down fibrosis it's basically just doing the same thing as microneedling anyway?

"It was found that collagen bundles were significantly increased in balding vertexes than in non-balding occiput scalp skin. A near 4-fold increase in elastic fibers was observed in both vertex and occiput scalp skins with MPHL versus controls."

Doesn't microneedling encourage collagen production?

 

[bridgeburn]

You only use anti androgens on and off?

yes but I use estrogen all of the time.

Wouldn't you need to maintain constant usage for it to be effective?

definitely should always take something to keep androgens not too high.

Or is your idea that you get regrowth with anti androgens and then maintain with dht inhibitors?

Im not going to risk it

Also if you're on anti androgens would finasteride/dutasteride even be necessary?

maybe not if you take a high enough dose to drastically lower T cause that would also lower Dht alot. however, some are very sensitive to Dht and i still take because i dont want even a single molecule to convert to Dht.

So you think androgens go own different pathways that can loss as well? If that's the case then wouldn't you want to continue taking finasteride/dutasteride even if you were on seti/fevi?

Yes

Right... But surely if its breaking down fibrosis it's basically just doing the same thing as microneedling anyway?

I dont know the mechanics of action of the chemical he used, just that its harsh on skin. Male skin is actually thicker than female skin and Swiss used a variety of things on his skin which in theory could have also benefited him by affecting the fibrotic tissue. Dermarolling with lithium chloride, dmso, UVB burns, plus that chemical before.

Doesn't microneedling encourage collagen production?

collagen isnt neccessarily the problem. a closer look at the study revealed its only a little bit more in bald scalp however its enough to be considered "significant" by that study. Id be more worried about the 4-fold increase in elastic fibers and they suggest this is a mast cell mediated process.

 

[spollardo]

definitely should always take something to keep androgens not too high.

Im not going to risk it

If this is the case then why aren't you on anti androgens constantly? Wouldn't it drastically affect the effectiveness if you're not keeping constant use?

collagen isnt neccessarily the problem. a closer look at the study revealed its only a little bit more in bald scalp however its enough to be considered "significant" by that study. Id be more worried about the 4-fold increase in elastic fibers and they suggest this is a mast cell mediated process.

So collagen could basically just be a byproduct? I think ethanol has a negative effect on collagen and so do you think minoxidil and microneedling at the same time would make a difference and if so what? Also would increased PGE2 from something like minoxidil cause more collagen?

 

[bridgeburn]

If this is the case then why aren't you on anti androgens constantly? Wouldn't it drastically affect the effectiveness if you're not keeping constant use?

Im basically using E as my anti androgen at the moment.It doesnt block the androgen receptor but E causes negative feedback on the HPG axis, and it increases SHBG which has a binding preference for Dht over T and T over E. also it is very good for regrowing hair. A high enough dose of E can actually reduce T to female ranges and also cause testicular atrophy.

So collagen could basically just be a byproduct? I think ethanol has a negative effect on collagen and so do you think minoxidil and microneedling at the same time would make a difference and if so what? Also would increased PGE2 from something like minoxidil cause more collagen?

yeah, dermarolling even alone has some studies supporting it. and the min derm combo would increase the absorption of min. Pge2 reduces collagen.

 

[spollardo]

Im basically using E as my anti androgen at the moment.It doesnt block the androgen receptor but E causes negative feedback on the HPG axis, and it increases SHBG which has a binding preference for Dht over T and T over E. also it is very good for regrowing hair. A high enough dose of E can actually reduce T to female ranges and also cause testicular atrophy.

How much E do you take, like dosage/frequency? Have you noticed any negative sides? Also where do you get it from?

yeah, dermarolling even alone has some studies supporting it. and the min derm combo would increase the absorption of min. Pge2 reduces collagen.

I see. But dermarolling also increases PGE2 right? Or am I mistaken. Either way you'd see the PGE2 from minoxidil reduce the collagen from microneedling I suppose.

EDIT:

some are very sensitive to Dht and i still take because i dont want even a single molecule to convert to Dht.

Also here, do you mean very sensitive to androgens generally?

 

[bridgeburn]

How much E do you take, like dosage/frequency? Have you noticed any negative sides? Also where do you get it from?

right now 4mg estradiol hemihydrate taken buccally. 2mg twice a day. I get from thailandpharmacy.net. it causes feminizing effects, I can't reccomend it unless you are a hardcore hair freak.

But dermarolling also increases PGE2 right? Or am I mistaken.

no, I have never read anything which said it does.

Also here, do you mean very sensitive to androgens generally?

yes, but Dht is the strongest

 

[spollardo]

right now 4mg estradiol hemihydrate taken buccally. 2mg twice a day. I get from thailandpharmacy.net. it causes feminizing effects, I can't reccomend it unless you are a hardcore hair freak.

Damn that really is hardcore then. Maybe I'm not ready for that just yet haha.

I have another question(s) if you don't mind. What is your dutasteride dosing schedule?
Also, I've read that it can take a few months for dutasteride to reach its full effectiveness. Does that mean that if you wanted to switch from finasteride to dutasteride then you should take finasteride at the same time for 3-6 months?

Oh and separately, do you know another example of something further down the path from androgens that causes loss/miniaturisation (besides PGD2/on top of it)?

 

[bridgeburn]

I have another question(s) if you don't mind. What is your dutasteride dosing schedule?

.5mg everyday

Also, I've read that it can take a few months for dutasteride to reach its full effectiveness. Does that mean that if you wanted to switch from finasteride to dutasteride then you should take finasteride at the same time for 3-6 months?

I don't know, according to this chart it reaches 90% inhibition at 4 weeks and then Dht becomes slighty lower in the next few months. It also shows Dht levels after stopping each treatment.

 

[spollardo]

.5mg everyday

I don't know, according to this chart it reaches 90% inhibition at 4 weeks and then Dht becomes slighty lower in the next few months. It also shows Dht levels after stopping each treatment.
View attachment 76638

Did you jump straight onto dutasteride when you first started?

 

[bridgeburn]

Did you jump straight onto dutasteride when you first started?

Ive never taken f i n. but actually I jumped straight into cypro, estrogen and dutasteride at the same time. baldness drove me insane lol.

 

[spollardo]

Ive never taken f i n. but actually I jumped straight into cypro, estrogen and dutasteride at the same time. baldness drove me insane lol.

Wow, that's real commitment. Hope it hasn't feminised you too much (unless you're alright with that lol).

Have you read about a change in genes resulting in overproduction of PGD2 in a bald scalp, and that therefore DHT inhib+seti/fevi could have a good synergistic effect for regrowth?

 

[bridgeburn]

Have you read about a change in genes resulting in overproduction of PGD2 in a bald scalp

According to Swiss Temples that's what happens. that even after removing Androgens, the genes for baldness/PGD2 production are left turned on. Think of the effect of how only after puberty we start growing facial hair, but old men with low testosterone don't lose their beards do they? This is why I use estrogen since it downregulates genes which are found to upregulated in bald scalp.

DHT inhib+seti/fevi could have a good synergistic effect for regrowth?

yes, i think that should have some synergy to it. better together than either treatment alone.

 

[spollardo]

Think of the effect of how only after puberty we start growing facial hair, but old men with low testosterone don't lose their beards do they?

Sure... But the remaining beard growth isn't from increased PGD2 right?

I always assumed that follicles just become more sensitive to androgens as we age, thus more beard growth and less scalp growth. What else could we say is the reason for increased balding as we age?

 

[bridgeburn]

But the remaining beard growth isn't from increased PGD2 right?

no idea if pgd2 affects beard growth. but hormones take time to cause change, they was an article I saw of a female to male transgender for example who started experience beard growth after 2 years of taking testosterone. That means that for 2 years testo levels were high and there was still no beard. this is one reason i believe that hormones although they may offer some stimulation too but their primary benefit is by changing gene transcription rather than just "feeding" the hair. You can take vitamins, biotin, and minoxidil and they will make your hair grow faster and temporary stimulation but your hormone levels will be changing genes in the background and eventually overrun the stimulation.

there's also a guy on here who started experimenting with antiandrogens and estrogen like 1 year after finishing puberty and lost like 70% of his facial hair so far. then there's another guy on a relatively extreme regimen whos 52 and says he still has a full beard. and then there's me kinda in the middle, a couple spots of my beard have thinned but I still have all my beard for the most part however, it does grow slower.

Little kids also don't have very high levels of either T or E, and they are not bald. (however, E levels are temporarily High in newborns). However, removing T with castration doesn't reverse hairloss. but removing T and adding E does in many cases regrow tons of hair. and lastly remove T, add E and using minoxidil possibly gives even better results.

I like to think of a room filled with radios and lots of wall outlets, and the volume of sound coming from the room represents hair gowth. When Androgens enter the room they start unplugging some radios. When Estrogen enters the room it starts plugging in radios, An adrogen receptor blocker stands in front of the door like a bouncer and allows E to enter but doesn't allow T or DHT in. and when minoxidil enters the room, although it doesn't plug in radios, it turns up the volume switch.

I always assumed that follicles just become more sensitive to androgens as we age

good point, I believe this as well.

 

[spollardo]

Little kids also don't have very high levels of either T or E, and they are not bald. (however, E levels are temporarily High in newborns). However, removing T with castration doesn't reverse hairloss. but removing T and adding E does in many cases regrow tons of hair. and lastly remove T, add E and using minoxidil possibly gives even better results.

Interesting. In that case, do you think temporary usage of E (let's say for 6months-1year) could result in regrowth which you could then maintain with a DHT inhibitor? As opposed to minoxidil which would have to be used permanently in order to keep the volume switch "turned up"?

Also, do you think any significant amount of hair regrowth occurs from the slight increase of E as a result of DHT inhibs as opposed to the follicles being allowed to "breath" again after removing androgens?

 

[bridgeburn]

Also, do you think any significant amount of hair regrowth occurs from the slight increase of E as a result of DHT inhibs as opposed to the follicles being allowed to "breath" again after removing androgens?

yes exactly, depending on an individuals aromatase levels.

Interesting. In that case, do you think temporary usage of E (let's say for 6months-1year) could result in regrowth which you could then maintain with a DHT inhibitor? As opposed to minoxidil which would have to be used permanently in order to keep the volume switch "turned up"?

possible, but you may need to use E longer depending on the severity of hair loss. Slick bald temples are not going to suddenly start growing full thick terminal hairs, these are new hairs just came back from the dead. in my case they started as small invisible fuzzies on the temples and get a little bit thicker every 2-3 months or so. Probably will take at least 2 years until maximum thickness. however, my non-slick bald diffusion areas thickened up fast.
then we have to factor in individual sensitivity and the possible increased sensitivity with age. Maybe some would require more than just a DHT inhibitor. I have thought about the possibility of switching gradually from E to cypro and probably maintanence would be possible with that. but then the problem is that with low levels of sex hormones long term has a risk of developing bone mineral density problems, like osteoporosis.

another issue is that with high amounts of E, you are likely to experience some level of testicular atrophy, there are different tolerances to this but T production and fertility may be very difficult to get back after stopping E. Also if a breast gland becomes too developed it is permanent unless you get it surgically removed.. this is some hardcore sh*t, lol.