The Role Of Estrogen In The Preservation And Regrowth Of Frontotemporal Hairline

[IdealForehead]

May be boosting aromatase on scalp which will produce estrogen locally, I have been ooking for a drug that boosts aromatase but I couldn't find it.

Here is an old study about aromatase and estrogen receptors.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15330396

I'm sure that you can find it using the search function or scrolling through @whatevr 's topics or the success stories page.

I think that he used the treatment "Alpicort F" or something like that.

Wow! I think you guys got it! Neat.

Dexamethasone significantly stimulated the expression of aromatase mRNA approximately 9-fold. Aromatase activity, assayed by the tritiated water method, was stimulated in both frontal scalp and beard dermal papilla cell cultures by dexamethasone.
​

That's pretty cool.

Dexamethasone is a steroid. So it looks like TOPICAL STEROIDS are the weapon of choice to increase aromatase locally.

What's in Alpicort F?

5 mg estradiol benzoate, 0.2 g prednisolone, and 0.4 g salicylic acid in 100mL of solution
​

So this provides some neat new context for why Alpicort F might be an effective treatment in the frontotemporal regions. The estradiol (estrogen) may selectively stimulate frontotemporal hair growth. Prednisolone, like dexamethasone, is a topical steroid, and it may reduce local inflammation and also induce aromatase production (thus increasing local estrogen further and reducing local androgens).

Only problem with topical steroids long term is they can cause skin atrophy. So this may not be a good long term strategy.

 

[Georgie]

Wow! I think you guys got it! Neat.

Dexamethasone significantly stimulated the expression of aromatase mRNA approximately 9-fold. Aromatase activity, assayed by the tritiated water method, was stimulated in both frontal scalp and beard dermal papilla cell cultures by dexamethasone.
​

That's pretty cool.

Dexamethasone is a steroid. So it looks like TOPICAL STEROIDS are the weapon of choice to increase aromatase locally.

What's in Alpicort F?

5 mg estradiol benzoate, 0.2 g prednisolone, and 0.4 g salicylic acid in 100mL of solution
​

So this provides some neat new context for why Alpicort F might be an effective treatment in the frontotemporal regions. The estradiol (estrogen) may selectively stimulate frontotemporal hair growth. Prednisolone, like dexamethasone, is a topical steroid, and it may reduce local inflammation and also induce aromatase production (thus increasing local estrogen further and reducing local androgens).

Only problem with topical steroids long term is they can cause skin atrophy. So this may not be a good long term strategy.

It does indeed seem that Dex is an option! I had speculated at the use of a pseudo-estrogenic topical steroid to induce or mimic levels of scalp/follicle aromatase, and Dex seems to contain those things exactly. I’m reallt glad someone already looked into and found this. I think it’s a great idea to seek out a group of men willing to trial this. I honestly think that there is great potential in this.

@idealfoe

 

[Georgie]

@IdealForehead you are spot on about estrogen (and progesterone) prolonging the anagen hairgrowth phase. This is something we see constantly in pregnant women who go through an entire 9 months of hugely elevated estrogen levels, and end up with thicker hair. We also thereafter see the phenomenon of post-Partum shedding. Just like Telogen Effluvium, but induced by the sudden drop in estrogen a woman has after giving birth, thereby shedding all of those hairs accumulated over the 9 month prolonged anagen phase.

 

[IdealForehead]

It does indeed seem that Dex is an option! I had speculated at the use of a pseudo-estrogenic topical steroid to induce or mimic levels of scalp/follicle aromatase, and Dex seems to contain those things exactly. I’m reallt glad someone already looked into and found this. I think it’s a great idea to seek out a group of men willing to trial this. I honestly think that there is great potential in this.

@idealfoe

Some guys on here already use topical estrogens to their frontotemporal regions. And topical steroids have been used on a semi-regular basis as well. In the past, everyone thought the only benefit of topical steroids is that they reduce inflammation. Now we can say that they likely have another benefit of inducing aromatase and thus reducing androgens while increasing estrogen where applied.

So we have a potential breakthrough in understanding how these treatments work.

However, both of these approaches are not popular and for good reason. Topical estrogen will absorb to a degree systemically, and none of us men are trying to grow tits while treating our hair.

And steroids are bad for the skin long term. You can't apply them to your scalp forever.

So I think this gives good evidence to support something like Alpicort F to the frontotemporal region, at least in the short term while trying to maximize regrowth, but I doubt it will every be a very popular approach for most men.

I have debated using estrogens in my own frontotemporal region for a while now and I've generally been inclined to stay away from them unless I get truly desperate.

 

[Georgie]

Some guys on here already use topical estrogens to their frontotemporal regions. And topical steroids have been used on a semi-regular basis as well. In the past, everyone thought the only benefit of topical steroids is that they reduce inflammation. Now we can say that they likely have another benefit of inducing aromatase and thus reducing androgens while increasing estrogen where applied.

So we have a potential breakthrough in understanding how these treatments work.

However, both of these approaches are not popular and for good reason. Topical estrogen will absorb to a degree systemically, and none of us men are trying to grow tits while treating our hair.

And steroids are bad for the skin long term. You can't apply them to your scalp forever.

So I think this gives good evidence to support something like Alpicort F to the frontotemporal region, at least in the short term while trying to maximize regrowth, but I doubt it will every be a very popular approach for most men.

I have debated using estrogens in my own frontotemporal region for a while now and I've generally been inclined to stay away from them unless I get truly desperate.

I believe that Botzu cream may also be somewhat in the same vein and what we are talking about here. Perhaps we just put the pieces together that they already have, and made a product for? sh*t I hope they bring it out next year like I keep reading.
As for us women. Well. I am learning more and more each day. I understand that testosterone has more to do than dht levels in our pattern of hairloss. I know that estrogen therapy can be hugely beneficial. I know WHY our patterns of hairloss is different. I know that there is a missing piece to the puzzle which prevents treatment in female Androgenetic Alopecia being as successful as treatment in men. I will find that piece.

 

[Georgie]

Some guys on here already use topical estrogens to their frontotemporal regions. And topical steroids have been used on a semi-regular basis as well. In the past, everyone thought the only benefit of topical steroids is that they reduce inflammation. Now we can say that they likely have another benefit of inducing aromatase and thus reducing androgens while increasing estrogen where applied.

So we have a potential breakthrough in understanding how these treatments work.

However, both of these approaches are not popular and for good reason. Topical estrogen will absorb to a degree systemically, and none of us men are trying to grow tits while treating our hair.

And steroids are bad for the skin long term. You can't apply them to your scalp forever.

So I think this gives good evidence to support something like Alpicort F to the frontotemporal region, at least in the short term while trying to maximize regrowth, but I doubt it will every be a very popular approach for most men.

I have debated using estrogens in my own frontotemporal region for a while now and I've generally been inclined to stay away from them unless I get truly desperate.

PS just on the topic of 5 alpha reductase inhibitors stimulating production of testosterone, I had an interesting discussion with another girl. I was stating my theory that these drugs were not helpful for females due to the rise in test with potential to create further DHT issues. She speculated that, since we know that aromatase coverts estradiol and free treat to estrogen, that in fact, it would leave more free to become estrogen, thereby negating the test > dht issue, and overall raising estrogen levels. We have afterall seen post menopausal women who suffer hairloss from loss of female hormone not response to low doses of finasteride (1-2mg), but respond very well to 5mg doses, and indeed there are accounts of 0.5mg dutas doses being helpful (although studies there are limited). Perhaps this is because we are seeing the increased levels of estrogen coming from free test aromatisation to estrogen being really helpful for women who have lost their female hormones. Just a theory!

 

[IdealForehead]

I believe that Botzu cream may also be somewhat in the same vein and what we are talking about here. Perhaps we just put the pieces together that they already have, and made a product for? sh*t I hope they bring it out next year like I keep reading.
As for us women. Well. I am learning more and more each day. I understand that testosterone has more to do than dht levels in our pattern of hairloss. I know that estrogen therapy can be hugely beneficial. I know WHY our patterns of hairloss is different. I know that there is a missing piece to the puzzle which prevents treatment in female Androgenetic Alopecia being as successful as treatment in men. I will find that piece.

I don't think it's complicated Georgie, and I think you already know the reason. It's that standard testosterone is likely destroying your hair as much or more than DHT. Given that women have such low levels of androgens to begin with, in order for a woman to develop androgenic alopecia, she must have very androgen sensitive hair. And if your hair is very androgen sensitive, both DHT and test will damage it significantly enough.

Standard methods for treating male pattern baldness like finasteride/dutasteride are primarily effective by dropping DHT but not affecting testosterone. In fact, they may INCREASE testosterone as you know.

If you truly have androgenic alopecia, and want to make as much progress with it as possible, then you need to get on a strong topical anti-androgen or strong oral anti-androgen that can adequately address both test & DHT.

As we've discussed, cyproterone is a shitty oral choice for you because I'm sure it will work, but I'm also sure it will make you suicidal. It made me very depressed when I used it and unlike you I've never tried to kill myself.

Flutamide is a shitty oral choice also due to liver issues you mentioned.

You really don't know until you're taking them, but systemic anti-androgens in high dose are absolutely EXHAUSTING and horrible to go through.

So in my opinion, again, you ought to go with a strong topical anti-androgen to block both test & DHT and augment the results you're getting from Dianne and dutasteride.

You mentioned a concern that RU will "wear off" over time. I don't think that's the problem with RU at all. See my thread here on why androgen receptor upregulation will likely not occur significantly with any treatment. The ACTUAL problem with RU is that it has a very short half life of only 1 hour in the blood, and likely ~5 hours in the scalp. So you must apply it in HIGH DOSES at least twice a day to get results.

This is why I have suggested you try 2 mL 8% RU twice daily.

I think this will be more effective than fluridil and you will tolerate it well. Yes it is expensive in this volume. That's the other problem with RU. But I think it will work and well for your particular problem.

Of course, your hair, your choice.

Good luck.

 

[Georgie]

Again sorry for all the typos @IdealForehead

 

[bridgeburn]

we therefore create more of this enzyme, which can be found most abundantly in the frontotemporal and parietal hairlines, meaning that women with Androgenetic Alopecia will generally have no hairline recession, and men who have minimal amounts of Aromatase because of much lower levels of estrogen, are left vulnerable to recession with the absence of the enzyme across the hairline/temples.

OMG, This makes a lot of sense!! I wonder if the frontotemporal part of the scalp actually produces aromatase or if for some reason aromatase migrates more to the temple region in females?? Body fat contains aromatase so maybe there is something to Kerastem treatment??

Hmmm, Testosterone promotes muscle development and muscles need calories to be maintained. So without T, excess calories eaten are more likely to be used for fat rather than muscle. and Estrogen causes female fat distribution, so i wonder if girls have more fat in their scalp?
interestingly, Dht doesn't promote muscle growth like T, because dht gets deactivated by an enzyme in our muscles.

cyproterone is a shitty oral choice for you because I'm sure it will work, but I'm also sure it will make you suicidal. It made me very depressed when I used it and unlike you I've never tried to kill myself.

I heard this could be because Cypro causes Vitamin B12 deficiency, and vit b12 deficiency can cause depression. I can only speak for myself but I take a supplement, and I didn't feel depressed while on cypro. Actually, less depressed because of the improvement in my hair.

 

[IdealForehead]

I heard this could be because Cypro causes Vitamin B12 deficiency, and vit b12 deficiency can cause depression. I can only speak for myself but I take a supplement, and I didn't feel depressed while on cypro. Actually, less depressed because of the improvement in my hair.

Nifty to know, but I doubt that was it. I was only on it for 3 weeks, over which time it nuked my dick until it was dead and sent my mood directly down the drain. I'm pretty sure B12 deficiency takes much longer to develop.

For B12 deficiency to develop: "In the absence of any apparent dietary supply, deficiency symptoms usually take five years or more to develop in adults, though some people experience problems within a year."

I think it was just the same process by which it was nuking my dick - blocking androgens in the brain and f*****g up my hormone levels in general.

It's got a known 30% depression rate quoted in the side effect profile. Nasty stuff for anyone. Obviously you were part of the other 70%.

 

[bridgeburn]

whatevr and idealforehead are gonna cure us

they are the REAL tsuji

Some people on this site should be given nobel prizes, lol

 

[bridgeburn]

For B12 deficiency to develop: "In the absence of any apparent dietary supply, deficiency symptoms usually take five years or more to develop in adults, though some people experience problems within a year."

Does this still apply when it's drug-induced??

it nuked my dick until it was dead and sent my mood directly down the drain.

If my dick was nuked, I would be in a shitty mood too. I guess im pretty lucky to still be able to function with all that I take. And people really get sexual sides with just finasteride??

 

[IdealForehead]

Does this still apply when it's drug-induced??



If my dick was nuked, I would be in a shitty mood too. I guess im pretty lucky to still be able to function with all that I take. And people really get sexual sides with just finasteride??

Insane you can function. How much you taking? I think I saw your thread once and you were on 50-100 mg? That was my range.

That's also the dose they use to castrate sex offenders with. For real!

 

[Georgie]

@IdealForehead @bridgeburn Speaking of neat discoveries, i came across something pretty interesting. Nothing to do with hairloss, but very intriguing nonetheless. Basically on one of the PCOS sites I frequent, a girl who began taking Flutamide spoke of how she noticed some life-long OCD behaviours she had totally diminished after a while on the drug. She then found this study:
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.157.3.483
Essentially this guy with debilitating OCD since age 10 hadn’t responded to treatment his entire life. They starting treating him with antiandrogen therapy and it virtually stopped the OCD. Very interested if you are a bit of a curio like myself. By the way I have OCD so I’m now wondering if Flutamide will cure me haha!

 

[IdealForehead]

@IdealForehead @bridgeburn Speaking of neat discoveries, i came across something pretty interesting. Nothing to do with hairloss, but very intriguing nonetheless. Basically on one of the PCOS sites I frequent, a girl who began taking Flutamide spoke of how she noticed some life-long OCD behaviours she had totally diminished after a while on the drug. She then found this study:
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.157.3.483
Essentially this guy with debilitating OCD since age 10 hadn’t responded to treatment his entire life. They starting treating him with antiandrogen therapy and it virtually stopped the OCD. Very interested if you are a bit of a curio like myself. By the way I have OCD so I’m now wondering if Flutamide will cure me haha!

That's bizarre, but makes sense in a way.

I will note that in addition to the dead sexual effect and depression effect I found cyproterone very calming.

And when I have injected steroids (test-e) I found my "mind running" and "wired" levels went up like crazy.

So definitely androgens do seem to mediate some thought processes.

In your case Georgie though, I'm pretty sure you'd just try to kill yourself. Seriously. Speaking from experience, the depression on these can be very real. It got pretty dark for me. My mood is a thousand times better now on topical darolutamide, because that doesn't much cross the blood-brain barrier.

But who knows you could always try and see.

 

[Georgie]

That's bizarre, but makes sense in a way.

I will note that in addition to the dead sexual effect and depression effect I found cyproterone very calming.

And when I have injected steroids (test-e) I found my "mind running" and "wired" levels went up like crazy.

So definitely androgens do seem to mediate some thought processes.

In your case Georgie though, I'm pretty sure you'd just try to kill yourself. Seriously. Speaking from experience, the depression on these can be very real. It got pretty dark for me. My mood is a thousand times better now on topical darolutamide, because that doesn't much cross the blood-brain barrier.

But who knows you could always try and see.

I tried to hang myself when i was taking spironolactone. I do not doubt it’s effect upon mood. This time around, I am in lexapro, and am receiving psychiatric therapy, so I have measures in place to mitigate deppressive issues whilst trialing Flutamide.

 

[bridgeburn]

Insane you can function. How much you taking? I think I saw your thread once and you were on 50-100 mg? That was my range.

That's also the dose they use to castrate sex offenders with. For real!

Most of the time 50mg. I used 100mg for 3 weeks, I didn't feel any difference from 50mg. im taking a break a cypro now for a couple months and then I will start again. The reason is because im afraid of the increased risk of developing a prolactin producing tumor with long term use.
I also increased estrogen dose, im thinking to cycle between a higher dose of E and no cypro and a lower dose of E with cypro.

Essentially this guy with debilitating OCD since age 10 hadn’t responded to treatment his entire life. They starting treating him with antiandrogen therapy and it virtually stopped the OCD. Very interested if you are a bit of a curio like myself. By the way I have OCD so I’m now wondering if Flutamide will cure me haha!

Lol, that is interesting. are we sure he wasn't an in denial trans?

Usually, it's cypro that gets a repetation for depression and suicide, not spironolactone. So if spironolactone made you suicidal, then I imagine cypro would be dangerous since its stronger. Hairloss must also be terrible psychologically. Its probably good that youre trying topical RU now before any other blockers.

 

[IdealForehead]

Most of the time 50mg. I used 100mg for 3 weeks, I didn't feel any difference from 50mg. im taking a break a cypro now for a couple months and then I will start again. The reason is because im afraid of the increased risk of developing a prolactin producing tumor with long term use.
I also increased estrogen dose, im thinking to cycle between a higher dose of E and no cypro and a lower dose of E with cypro.

Lol, that is interesting. are we sure he wasn't an in denial trans?

Usually, it's cypro that gets a repetation for depression and suicide, not spironolactone. So if spironolactone made you suicidal, then I imagine cypro would be dangerous since its stronger. Hairloss must also be terrible psychologically. Its probably good that youre trying topical RU now before any other blockers.

Dude that's absolutely insane. I have no idea how you can handle that. Jesus.

 

[Georgie]

Dude that's absolutely insane. I have no idea how you can handle that. Jesus.

Haha 100mg. Christ. That is actual Trans level hormone replacement dosage. You almost castrated yourself!

 

[bridgeburn]

Haha 100mg. Christ. That is actual Trans level hormone replacement dosage. You almost castrated yourself!

my regimen is getting pretty close to that level, Lol.