The Superior Moral Position on Torture

[kilgore]

As to the OP:

The author of that piece against torture said this in his final remarks:

Never again should we turn to torture no matter how we are tempted. When once again innocent people are dying, our weaker and more brutal citizens will demand we use torture against the enemy to try and save them. But those of us with superior morals should not listen. I will not feel the need to harm a terrorist just because I see people dying. I’m not a psychopath. I can watch innocent people die and not bat an eye.

WTF!! :shock:

That is leftist logic for you Old Baldy, which is the real torture in my opinion.

You know actually I can respect an honest and decent lefty like Bryan with whom I could happen to have a difference of opinion regarding economic policy. But sadly nowadays the kind of people that infest the Democrat Party are far left types who think that America is the Great Satan and that the US is responsible for everything that is wrong in the world. It is this kind of people that make my skin crawl. They go through all kinds of mental contortions to draw false moral equivalences in order to smear their country which in my opinion has always been a force for good in the world. I don't understand how can they live in America and think that.

 

[kilgore]

Bush's warrantless wiretapping

You mean Obama's warantless wiretapping, because he voted for FISA, didn't you know?

 

[Old Baldy]

You know kilgore, I didn't catch that phrase from ClayShaw.

Yes, Obama voted for FISA.

And anyone who feels they have superior morals by believing:

I’m not a psychopath. I can watch innocent people die and not bat an eye.

makes me conclude there might be people more dangerous and cold hearted than terrorists.

Leftie lunatic!! :thumbdown2:

 

[Dblbass128]

Bush's warrantless wiretapping

You mean Obama's warantless wiretapping, because he voted for FISA, didn't you know?

INDEED HE DID

 

[Dblbass128]

There are not any ticking time bombs anywhere the only way they would get there is for pretext for Marshall Law

Those who would trade liberties for temporary security deserve neither...Ben Franklin

I don't give a sh*t how liniment any threat is, you cannot override the US Constitution

And as far as I am concerned anytime the controlled filtered media reports some scary sh*t like Swine Flu or terror attacks I question their reports 100% as should any freedom loving American

Like, flying a f*****g 757 over the buildings of Manhattan to remind those people they could be slaughtered at any minute....

Its called Psychological warfare and if people cannot read that they need to take their heads out of the sand

sorry for ranting but Im quite tired of the BS

 

[ClayShaw]

Bush's warrantless wiretapping

You mean Obama's warantless wiretapping, because he voted for FISA, didn't you know?

First, Kilgore, you're an a**h**.
Second, you're wrong. Since you love calling other people stupid, now it's your turn to be stupid.
FISA passed in 1978. In 1978, Obama was.... 17. So no, Obama did not vote for FISA. He did vote to amend the law in 2008, and I disagree strongly with that vote. One of many problems I have with Obama.
Most everyone who follows politics is well aware that Obama voted the wrong way on that bill.
Bush's program (thats right, not Obama's) is, in addition to being a clear violation of the 4th amendment, is a violation of FISA law. There are FISA courts, secret courts, specifically designed to make sure that the gov't is not wire tapping MLK Jr. or someone like that. By going around the courts, Bush broke the law. In addition to that, FISA refers to "foreign powers", or "agents of foreign powers". American citizens are not foreign powers. If a need to investigate American citizens arises, as it often does, we have the FBI. The fact that the NSA/CIA is operating inside America should scare us.
It was Bush's warrantless wiretapping. He started it. Obama, and many people who have apparently not read the 4th amendment voted to continue it.
It's a disgrace, and a good reason not to like Obama.
The problem I have with conservatives today is their selective anger. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama, and I have no problem with people who disagree with his policies. A lot of the time, I agree with those people. Anyone who refers to him as "B. Hussein Obama" is a racist idiot. Doing that is a shortcut to thinking. It's much easier to point out the guy's middle name than it is to point out the specific flaws of a certain policy.

 

[ClayShaw]

I think one important factor is the advent of a new, irrational, implacable, fanatical enemy.

And the Japanese Imperial Army was not?

As I was typing that response, I was wondering if anybody was going to cite the Japanese Army in that regard! As PersonGuy said, the Japanese were pretty fanatical in their war-making, too, but at least they were (mostly) rational people; at least, compared to some of the really far-out Muslim fanatics who seem to be beyond rationality.

[quote="The Gardener":2ee99bll]If that is the case, would you advocate the US resorting to "asymetrical", "terrorist-style" warfare because our enemies are engaging in the same?

No. But on a closely related issue, do I think we should resort to something like waterboarding a captured terrorist, if we have good reason to think that (for example) he knows the location of a "ticking" nuclear bomb that's been hidden somewhere in a large American city? Probably. I think every reasonable person, every reasonable American, can think of such scenarios where waterboarding might be justified. To our horror, such terrifying scenarios as the one above are starting to seem more and more possible.[/quote:2ee99bll]

Brian, I agree and I disagree.
The scenario you describe, the ticking time bomb scenario, clearly requires that the gloves come off. But you don't codify policy with the absolute worst case scenario in mind. Doing so alienates allies and radicalized people we should be trying to get on our side. This is not a war, its counterinsurgency, which requires the support of the people. You don't win the support of the people by waterboarding them.
I think that any CIA agent would do whatever he or she had to do, knowing that a bomb was planted in an American city. I think the law is out the window at that point. That has not happened yet.

 

[The Gardener]

Quit being a such a dishonest debater and a whiny little b**ch at that too, gardener.... blah blah blah

So... your position is because Japan did waterboarding, PLUS other things, and were tried for them, then the presence of the other torture methods means that waterboarding is hunky dory. As for your ugly barrage of words at me personally, the only fault I have is quoting John McCain who was the source for my position.

Sorry, if you go back to the link I posted, there is clear legal precedent in the US that waterboarding is torture and is illegal:
- A renegade sheriff in Texas was using waterboarding on detainees. He was convicted of a felony.
- Civil plaintiffs filed a suit seeking reparations for being waterboarded by Ferdinand Marcos of the Philippines. A US court sided WITH the plaintiffs and awarded them a significant claim to the Marcos estate.

Those aren't lies, that's fact.

Quit being a disingenuous troll.

You are an ignoramus

The insane ramblings of a severely emotionally disturbed man.

Oh, the "ad hominem" humor.... lol

Some people just can't get over the fact that the neoconservative experiment has resulted in complete catastrophe. Your anger shows... and calling me names is probably immensely satisfying to you, but fortunately, doing so won't remove neoconservatism from the dustbin of history.

 

[Hammy070]

There are some people who simply cannot feel empathy for other human beings. Kilgore by his own words, is almost definitly one of them. Most of us are to varying extents influenced by empathy. Some however are not and empathy simply doesn't factor into a view formation. I used to argue with such people intensely, but now I know better. None of us can rewire his neurology. Just be happy most of us are not wired in such a way. But don't scold him either, he cannot help it. Instead we should be aware of these differences, he should find an issue that he FEELS unsettled with, then use that to understand how WE feel with our "leftist" tendencies.

 

[ClayShaw]

There are some people who simply cannot feel empathy for other human beings. Kilgore by his own words, is almost definitly one of them. Most of us are to varying extents influenced by empathy. Some however are not and empathy simply doesn't factor into a view formation. I used to argue with such people intensely, but now I know better. None of us can rewire his neurology. Just be happy most of us are not wired in such a way. But don't scold him either, he cannot help it. Instead we should be aware of these differences, he should find an issue that he FEELS unsettled with, then use that to understand how WE feel with our "leftist" tendencies.

I agree with this post.
There are some who post on this section who clearly have right leaning political views (OldBaldy, CCS, Bryan, Kilgore), but only Kilgore seems to occupy that segment of the right that actually enjoys violence.
Like I said in another thread, anyone who uses Obama's middle name as if it is a strike against him is probably not very bright. Racism takes a certain amount of stupidity, and Kilgore seems to be implying that anyone with the name "Hussein" is a bad person. That, to me, is stupidity, whereas I get the impression that people like OldBaldy and Bryan disagree strongly with Obama on policy, but would be able to make policy arguments without resorting to the "B. Hussein Obama" level of idiocy, which is very, very low. I'm also willing to bet that Kilgore is no more than 19 years old.

 

[Bryan]

There are some who post on this section who clearly have right leaning political views (OldBaldy, CCS, Bryan, Kilgore)...

I am incredulous to hear you say that. This may be the only time in my entire life (and I'm a lot older than most of the rest of you) that anybody has EVER accused me of having "right leaning political views". I'm curious to know what my friend Old Baldy thinks about that claim!

Just for the record: I've voted Democratic my entire life (including voting for George McGovern for President in 1972). I have constantly criticized George W. Bush in all my postings. And I've actually gone so far as to promote SOCIALISM in previous posts! Is there ANY other individual on this forum who has ever done that??

Just about the only thing I've ever said that could conceivably be called a "right leaning political view" is that thing I said recently in this same thread about how I would consider using waterboarding in certain extreme situations, like the existence of a ticking nuclear bomb hidden in an American city. But I don't even consider that to be a political view. It's not "left" or "right", it's just common sense. It transcends politics.

 

[PersonGuy]

It's not "left" or "right", it's just common sense. It transcends politics.

It makes things easier for people to label things.

I am pro-abortion and pro-death penalty. I even think we should kill babies for crimes they might commit. People are always labeling me.

 

[Old Baldy]

There are some who post on this section who clearly have right leaning political views (OldBaldy, CCS, Bryan, Kilgore)...

I am incredulous to hear you say that. This may be the only time in my entire life (and I'm a lot older than most of the rest of you) that anybody has EVER accused me of having "right leaning political views". I'm curious to know what my friend Old Baldy thinks about that claim!

Just for the record: I've voted Democratic my entire life (including voting for George McGovern for President in 1972). I have constantly criticized George W. Bush in all my postings. And I've actually gone so far as to promote SOCIALISM in previous posts! Is there ANY other individual on this forum who has ever done that??

Just about the only thing I've ever said that could conceivably be called a "right leaning political view" is that thing I said recently in this same thread about how I would consider using waterboarding in certain extreme situations, like the existence of a ticking nuclear bomb hidden in an American city. But I don't even consider that to be a political view. It's not "left" or "right", it's just common sense. It transcends politics.

Bryan, NOBODY voted for George McGovern for pete's sake!!

I keep telling you Bryan that you are an "old school" type of Democrat. ClayShaw is correct, in these times you are right/center political leaning guy I'm afraid to say. (ClayShaw is obviously correct in putting CCS, Kilgore and myself in the right wing camp.)

Forget about how you vote, I'm talking about what's in your heart IMHO. (I'd say the same about Gardener except he is a little right of you IMHO. I hope Gardener isn't mad at me for putting him more in the right wing camp.)

To many young liberals I'd venture to say that you would be viewed as a rabid right winger. That shows you how far to the left these young liberal types tend to be. (Now you know I've told you this about a guzillion times. Why don't you listen to Old Baldy??!! )

For example, if JFK was alive, I honestly believe these young liberals would compare him to Dick Cheney. (Well, they'd compare him more to Dick Cheney than Barack Obama.) And you are a JFK type of Democrat IMHO. (JFK and FDR were so much more conservative than the modern day liberal it is ridiculous IMHO.)

Yes, waterboarding transcends politics IMHO also. In certain extraordinary circumstances you waterboard the heck out of him/her!!

I think you better rethink your opinion relative to calling yourself a Socialist. In these days and times you are woefully to the right of what a young liberal calls Socialism. Sorry Bryan, you ain't no Socialist (i.e., not in the way it is portrayed in the minds of current mainstream lefties).

Btw, I voted for Jimmy Carter. I was a turncoat in that election.

As for me, I'm an old right winger who saw the rise of the Neocons. They are oftentimes extremist wackos IMHO.

I long for the old days Bryan, (i.e., a fair days pay for a fair days work, etc., etc., etc.,.......etc.).

 

[Dblbass128]

There are some who post on this section who clearly have right leaning political views (OldBaldy, CCS, Bryan, Kilgore)...

I am incredulous to hear you say that. This may be the only time in my entire life (and I'm a lot older than most of the rest of you) that anybody has EVER accused me of having "right leaning political views". I'm curious to know what my friend Old Baldy thinks about that claim!

Just for the record: I've voted Democratic my entire life (including voting for George McGovern for President in 1972). I have constantly criticized George W. Bush in all my postings. And I've actually gone so far as to promote SOCIALISM in previous posts! Is there ANY other individual on this forum who has ever done that??

Just about the only thing I've ever said that could conceivably be called a "right leaning political view" is that thing I said recently in this same thread about how I would consider using waterboarding in certain extreme situations, like the existence of a ticking nuclear bomb hidden in an American city. But I don't even consider that to be a political view. It's not "left" or "right", it's just common sense. It transcends politics.

Im Conservative and I could not stand George Bush either lol


Neoconservatives are not the same as true Conservatives

 

[Dblbass128]

There are some who post on this section who clearly have right leaning political views (OldBaldy, CCS, Bryan, Kilgore)...

I am incredulous to hear you say that. This may be the only time in my entire life (and I'm a lot older than most of the rest of you) that anybody has EVER accused me of having "right leaning political views". I'm curious to know what my friend Old Baldy thinks about that claim!

Just for the record: I've voted Democratic my entire life (including voting for George McGovern for President in 1972). I have constantly criticized George W. Bush in all my postings. And I've actually gone so far as to promote SOCIALISM in previous posts! Is there ANY other individual on this forum who has ever done that??

Just about the only thing I've ever said that could conceivably be called a "right leaning political view" is that thing I said recently in this same thread about how I would consider using waterboarding in certain extreme situations, like the existence of a ticking nuclear bomb hidden in an American city. But I don't even consider that to be a political view. It's not "left" or "right", it's just common sense. It transcends politics.

Bryan, NOBODY voted for George McGovern for pete's sake!!

I keep telling you Bryan that you are an "old school" type of Democrat. ClayShaw is correct, in these times you are right/center political leaning guy I'm afraid to say. (ClayShaw is obviously correct in putting CCS, Kilgore and myself in the right wing camp.)

Forget about how you vote, I'm talking about what's in your heart IMHO. (I'd say the same about Gardener except he is a little right of you IMHO. I hope Gardener isn't mad at me for putting him more in the right wing camp.)

To many young liberals I'd venture to say that you would be viewed as a rabid right winger. That shows you how far to the left these young liberal types tend to be. (Now you know I've told you this about a guzillion times. Why don't you listen to Old Baldy??!! )

For example, if JFK was alive, I honestly believe these young liberals would compare him to Dick Cheney. (Well, they'd compare him more to Dick Cheney than Barack Obama.) And you are a JFK type of Democrat IMHO. (JFK and FDR were so much more conservative than the modern day liberal it is ridiculous IMHO.)

Yes, waterboarding transcends politics IMHO also. In certain extraordinary circumstances you waterboard the heck out of him/her!!

I think you better rethink your opinion relative to calling yourself a Socialist. In these days and times you are woefully to the right of what a young liberal calls Socialism. Sorry Bryan, you ain't no Socialist (i.e., not in the way it is portrayed in the minds of current mainstream lefties).

Btw, I voted for Jimmy Carter. I was a turncoat in that election.

As for me, I'm an old right winger who saw the rise of the Neocons. They are oftentimes extremist wackos IMHO.

I long for the old days Bryan, (i.e., a fair days pay for a fair days work, etc., etc., etc.,.......etc.).

You are a Goldwater republican!!!

 

[ClayShaw]

There are some who post on this section who clearly have right leaning political views (OldBaldy, CCS, Bryan, Kilgore)...

I am incredulous to hear you say that. This may be the only time in my entire life (and I'm a lot older than most of the rest of you) that anybody has EVER accused me of having "right leaning political views". I'm curious to know what my friend Old Baldy thinks about that claim!

Just for the record: I've voted Democratic my entire life (including voting for George McGovern for President in 1972). I have constantly criticized George W. Bush in all my postings. And I've actually gone so far as to promote SOCIALISM in previous posts! Is there ANY other individual on this forum who has ever done that??

Just about the only thing I've ever said that could conceivably be called a "right leaning political view" is that thing I said recently in this same thread about how I would consider using waterboarding in certain extreme situations, like the existence of a ticking nuclear bomb hidden in an American city. But I don't even consider that to be a political view. It's not "left" or "right", it's just common sense. It transcends politics.

Wow. Ok. Didn't read any posts promoting socialism. That would not be a right leaning political view at all.
For the record, there is nothing wrong with being on the right, politically.
The usual breakdown on torture is that the "apologists" are on the right, and those on the left are strongly against it.
My apologies.

 

[ClayShaw]

There are some who post on this section who clearly have right leaning political views (OldBaldy, CCS, Bryan, Kilgore)...

I am incredulous to hear you say that. This may be the only time in my entire life (and I'm a lot older than most of the rest of you) that anybody has EVER accused me of having "right leaning political views". I'm curious to know what my friend Old Baldy thinks about that claim!

Just for the record: I've voted Democratic my entire life (including voting for George McGovern for President in 1972). I have constantly criticized George W. Bush in all my postings. And I've actually gone so far as to promote SOCIALISM in previous posts! Is there ANY other individual on this forum who has ever done that??

Just about the only thing I've ever said that could conceivably be called a "right leaning political view" is that thing I said recently in this same thread about how I would consider using waterboarding in certain extreme situations, like the existence of a ticking nuclear bomb hidden in an American city. But I don't even consider that to be a political view. It's not "left" or "right", it's just common sense. It transcends politics.

Bryan, NOBODY voted for George McGovern for pete's sake!!

I keep telling you Bryan that you are an "old school" type of Democrat. ClayShaw is correct, in these times you are right/center political leaning guy I'm afraid to say. (ClayShaw is obviously correct in putting CCS, Kilgore and myself in the right wing camp.)

Forget about how you vote, I'm talking about what's in your heart IMHO. (I'd say the same about Gardener except he is a little right of you IMHO. I hope Gardener isn't mad at me for putting him more in the right wing camp.)

To many young liberals I'd venture to say that you would be viewed as a rabid right winger. That shows you how far to the left these young liberal types tend to be. (Now you know I've told you this about a guzillion times. Why don't you listen to Old Baldy??!! )

For example, if JFK was alive, I honestly believe these young liberals would compare him to Dick Cheney. (Well, they'd compare him more to Dick Cheney than Barack Obama.) And you are a JFK type of Democrat IMHO. (JFK and FDR were so much more conservative than the modern day liberal it is ridiculous IMHO.)

Yes, waterboarding transcends politics IMHO also. In certain extraordinary circumstances you waterboard the heck out of him/her!!

I think you better rethink your opinion relative to calling yourself a Socialist. In these days and times you are woefully to the right of what a young liberal calls Socialism. Sorry Bryan, you ain't no Socialist (i.e., not in the way it is portrayed in the minds of current mainstream lefties).

Btw, I voted for Jimmy Carter. I was a turncoat in that election.

As for me, I'm an old right winger who saw the rise of the Neocons. They are oftentimes extremist wackos IMHO.

I long for the old days Bryan, (i.e., a fair days pay for a fair days work, etc., etc., etc.,.......etc.).

These are the kind of right wing people (OldBaldy, not the neocons) that I respect, as someone who is sort of center-left.
I picture OldBaldy (i'm probably way off) as a sort of interior west libertarian that has a "leave me alone, I'll leave you alone" philosophy.
I have no issues with these people, and although I frequently disagree with them, I respect them. I lived in the west and came to appreciate this point of view.
It's the neocons who seem to be hungry for blood and very willing to send other people to die (Feith, Wolfowitz, etc.) and the religious right that I have no respect for. I suspect Kilgore is a neocon, and I'm positive CCS is a libertarian.

 

[The Gardener]

I'm philosophically a Libertarian, I suppose.

But above all, I'm anti-Empire. I think a lot of the problems we face are due to us sticking our noses into too many places in the world. Instead of us debating whether or not we should torture people, perhaps the better question to ask is why we are manipulating the governments in these foreign places, supporting dictators (Shah, the Sauds, Mubarak, Hussein, etc).

 

[Dblbass128]

In my eyes there are two parties


Constitutionalists and Fascists!!!!!

 

[ClayShaw]

I'm philosophically a Libertarian, I suppose.

But above all, I'm anti-Empire. I think a lot of the problems we face are due to us sticking our noses into too many places in the world. Instead of us debating whether or not we should torture people, perhaps the better question to ask is why we are manipulating the governments in these foreign places, supporting dictators (Shah, the Sauds, Mubarak, Hussein, etc).

I agree with this, to a certain extent. I think some of the meddling has caused us problems. Of your examples, I would say the Islamic Revolution in Iran has been the most obvious consequence of our "sticking our noses" somewhere.
At the same time, I think a strict isolationist foreign policy would also be harmful. I guess its just hard to pick your spots.
Supporting regimes hated by their people might be something to get away from though. It didn't work in Iran and it didnt work in South America.