thinking about starting dutasteride...

[Bryan]

I am thinking of adding dutasteride to my regimen twice a week while taking finasteride a day as well. I am thinking of taking finaster in the morning and dutasteride in the midday just to prevent the reaction between them.

What makes you think that would prevent any reaction between them? The way dutasteride works is that it BUILDS-UP in the bloodstream. It's always present. So you can separate them all you want by taking them at different times of the day (even 12 hours apart), but it's not going to do any good as far as keeping them from interacting with each other (assuming that there IS such an interaction).

 

[Guest]

I am thinking of adding dutasteride to my regimen twice a week while taking finasteride a day as well. I am thinking of taking finaster in the morning and dutasteride in the midday just to prevent the reaction between them.

What makes you think that would stop any reaction between them? The way dutasteride works is that it BUILDS-UP in the bloodstream. It's always present. So you can separate them all you want by taking them at different times of the day (even 12 hours apart), but it's not going to do any good as far as keeping them from interacting with each other (assuming that there IS such an interaction).

Anyway,
Thanks Bryan for your info. I really appreciate it. I really ignored any reaction between them that might lower their action. So it's better to add dutasteride twice a week while taking finasteride 5 times a week. I don't want to take only dutasteride just because I feel that finasteride helped me a lot.

Thanks again Bryan, You managed to persuade me to make the right move

 

[Bryan]

I disagree with that because ,by taking duasteride, you are adding the additional benefit of hindering alpha 5 reductase type 1 which you would not hinder with finasteride alone.

First of all, the type 1 enzyme doesn't have much effect on balding. I'm not saying that it has NO EFFECT AT ALL, just not very much of an effect. Second of all, at a dose of only two Avodarts a week, the type 1 enzyme will probably only be inhibited by around 10%-15% or so. So that's 10%-15% of not very much!

 

[Bryan]

If the type a5r1 doesn't have much of an effect on balding, then why is duasteride a superior treatment to finasteride, in terms of significantly increased haircounts among duasteride users according to the stage two fda clinical trials.

I think that's mainly because dutasteride inhibits the type 2 enzyme more completely than finasteride. About 98%-99% for dutasteride (at the recommended dose), versus about 85% to 90% for Propecia.

Additionally, 5 alpha reductase 1 is an enzyme responsible for testosterones conversion into dht , of course it has an effect on balding, if you hinder it, you hinder dht which is a main contributing factor to male pattern baldness, stating that a5r1 doesn't have much of an effect on balding just doesn't make any since.

The main 5a-reductase enzyme in the dermal papillae of human hair follicles has been shown to be the type 2 version, which is why finasteride is the main inhibitor in hair follicles. Furthermore, a study was done with with stumptailed macaques, in which MK386 (Merck's experimental specific type 1 inhibitor) failed to produce any measurable improvement in hair growth (as opposed to the clear benefits from finasteride in a previous study with macaques). A similar lack of results was obtained in humans, using MK386 alone.

 

[Bryan]

I came accross the previous post on ''hairlosshelp'' it sounds oddly similar to your post Bryan, almost word for word at times, what an astounding coincidence. :hump:

Socks borrowed a lot of that information from MY posts, which is why it sounds so similar.

 

[Bryan]

Hmm... That is interesting conversly, mk386 was shown an ineffective hairloss treatment, that does not preclude that duasterides inhibition of a5r1 doesn't contribute significantly to hairloss, regaurdless of the dermal papillae, the result of less a5r1, is less overall dht, which has an end result of a slower progession of male pattern baldness.

Depends on what you mean by "contribute significantly". Inhibiting the type 1 enzyme helps _some_, but it's definitely the type 2 enzyme which is FUNDAMENTAL to male pattern balding.

 

[Bryan]

Here's the actual study which tested MK386 in stumptailed macaques:

"Effects of 1 Year Treatment With Oral MK386, an Inhibitor of Type 1 5a-Reductase, in the Stumptailed Macaque (Macaca Arctoides)" Rhodes et al, J Invest Dermatol 1995; 104:658.

Human type 1 5a-reductase (5a-R) is the enzyme that converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in non-genital skin and sebaceous glands. A specific inhibitor of type 1 5a-R, MK386 (4,7b-dimethyl-4-azacholestan-3-one), was used to test the effect of such a compound on hair growth in the stumptailed macaque, a commonly used model of human androgenetic alopecia. Animals were matched by weight, age and sex and divided into two groups; MK386 treated (oral 1 mg/kg/day; n=6 females, 7 males) or vehicle treated (n=5 females, 6 males). Hair shaved from a pre-marked 1 sq in. area was weighed and blood was collected once/month. Samples from 19 months were collected; 7 months baseline, 12 months on treatment. DHT was measured in serum of selected animals. Preliminary data from males showed MK386 treatment caused a 30-50% decrease in serum DHT. Final analysis of hair weights from all animals showed mean weights were similar in both groups (p>0.25). Large monthly variations in hair weights were observed (p<0.001), emphasizing the need for long term studies in this model. These results contrast with those from a previous study in stumptailed macaques using an inhibitor of type 2 5a-R (finasteride, 1 mg/kg/day, orally) which caused an increase in hair weights during 6 months of treatment(1).

(1)Rhodes et al, J Clin Endocrinol Met 79: 991-996, 1994.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, I thought that you may find this article intersting, it states that both forms of a5r are present in the human hair follicles which demonstrates duasterides superior ability to suppress hairloss, by its dual action of hinderance concerning dht. http://hairloss.iahrs.org/hair-loss-tre ... tasteride/

Thanks for posting that, but I've seen that same information posted many times on various hairloss forums and Web sites. While it may be true that the type 1 enzyme exists in certain other parts of the hair follicle, it seems clear that it's the type 2 enzyme which is very dominant in the dermal papilla. The dermal papilla is the "control center" of the follicle, the part that releases growth-inhibiting factors to the rest of the follicle in response to androgens. See the study below, including a brief excerpt:

Arch Dermatol Res. 1999 Feb-Mar;291(2-3):100-3.
"Finasteride is the main inhibitor of 5alpha-reductase activity in microdissected dermal papillae of human hair follicles." Hoffmann R, Happle R. Department of Dermatology, Philipp University, Marburg, Germany.

"Our results showed that even 10 nM of finasteride completely inhibited 5alpha-reductase activity in all DP [dermal papillae] investigated. These results were reproducible in all experiments. MK386, however, did not consistently inhibit or increase 5AR in DP. In fact, for MK386 no clear dose-response relationship was apparent."

 

[Nicky]

Maybe dutas works better for some people than finast. Taking dutas twice a week a as well as finasteride a day is the best combo. 0.1mg dutasteride daily (or 0.5mg every 5 days) is as effective as taking 5mg Finasteride daily, or actually dutasteride is a little better even at that low dose.
Here is a guy oh HLH that got much better results using only dutasteride twice a week, than using finasteride every day.

Hello there, this is my first post on any hair loss forum even though I've been reading them for many years.

I would like to comment a bit about finasteride vs. Dutas as I've used both. For me Finasteride caused more side effects and was less effective than Dutasteride. Even though both block DHT production I don't think they work exactly the same in the body. That's why I suggest for people that can't handle Finasteride (or if it didn't work for you) to try out Dutas/Avodart. It works great for me.

About the side effects, on Finasteride:
Dizziness, brain fog, tiredness (some days worse than others), slight depression, dry facial skin, slight decrease in libido. I actually couldn't take more than 0.5mg finasteride a day or the sides become too much for me to handle. I know, some people can take 5mg without feeling anything, that's why you have to remember every person is different.

About sides on Dutasteride:
Slight tiredness in the morning (when waking up), slightly dry facial skin, slight decrease in libido. I'm on Dutas now, taking a 0.5mg pill twice a week, even at this dose my hair is thicker than it was on finasteride, and less side effects too.

My hair loss is not what I would call severe, it's mostly a little diffuse thinning all over and some hair loss at the temples. But in the past 6 years I was able to keep all the hair I have and actually improve it's condition a bit. I was 25 at the time of starting hair loss products, I'm 31 now. This is what I mostly used this whole time:

2x a week 0.5mg Dutasteride (the first month used it daily to build it in my body and to see if I get/handle any side effects)
2x a week Nizoral 2% Shampoo (keep on hair for about 1 min)
1x a day Grape Seed Extract 100mg (95% OPC)
1x a day Green Tea Extract 500mg (40% OPC)
1x a day MSM 1000mg
1x a day Multivitamin

This regimen works really well for me, I've also tried Proscar/finasteride for 1 year during this time, but found it less effective than Avodart/Dutas, and gave me more side effects. Some people find the 2% nizoral too harsh/drying for their scalp, if that is the case, try the 1% version.

I would like to finally comment about the grape seed and green tea extracts, they are really powerful antioxidants, and if anyone plans on using them for extended periods of time, I suggest taking them twice a week only. Yes you can get "too much of a good thing" effect with them. I've had to cut down on them to 2 times a week.

Hope this post helps, good luck

 

[Guest]

Bryan or anyone else,

First of all I am using xandrox 15% plus twice a day for 7,5 months now(previously on xandrox 15% regular). Before 3 months I discontinued propecia that I was using for 11 months without any success and I switched from xandrox 15% regular to xandrox 15% plus that has topical finasteride to keep the few gains that I got from oral finasteride(propecia). Also before 3 months I started oral dutasteride(avodart) to get better results than propecia.

I am just wondering if topical finasteride in xandrox 15% plus will interact with oral dutastride(avodart) and if topical finasteride will decrease the effectiveness of oral dutasteride.????

 

[recboi]

Do men that take dutasteride for prostate issues report hair growth or loss?

 

[Spanishlad]

i am thinking about starting dutas also as finasteride hasnt worked for me, i guess im one of the unlucky ones however i cant get a prescription does anyone know a reliable online source

 

[but What about Today]

I disagree with that because ,by taking duasteride, you are adding the additional benefit of hindering alpha 5 reductase type 1 which you would not hinder with finasteride alone.

First of all, the type 1 enzyme doesn't have much effect on balding. I'm not saying that it has NO EFFECT AT ALL, just not very much of an effect. Second of all, at a dose of only two Avodarts a week, the type 1 enzyme will probably only be inhibited by around 10%-15% or so. So that's 10%-15% of not very much!

So.... hmmm form what I gather and getting from you Bryan is that you can have similar results to that of the dutasteride study by taking finasteride and another good dht blocker like proxiphen or whatever???

 

[Bryan]

So.... hmmm form what I gather and getting from you Bryan is that you can have similar results to that of the dutasteride study by taking finasteride and another good dht blocker like proxiphen or whatever???

I doubt that Proxiphen is a particularly good DHT blocker, but yeah, I'm sure using finasteride and Proxiphen together would be an excellent combination, at least as good as dutasteride.

I should add here that at the doses of both drugs that are typically used, dutasteride inhibits the 5a-reductase type II enzyme more completely than finasteride. I think that's part of the reason that dutasteride is more effective than finasteride (the other reason being the type I inhibition).

 

[chromedomefear]

I should add here that at the doses of both drugs that are typically used, dutasteride inhibits the 5a-reductase type II enzyme more completely than finasteride.

Can I get some clarification....there has been so many different dosage recommendations thrown around regarding dutasteride on this site....what IS the typical dosage for .5mg dutasteride? I get dutasteride legit from my Doctor, since I have a familial chain of prostate cancer, and the script instructions are "1 capsule once daily".

 

[Bryan]

....what IS the typical dosage for .5mg dutasteride?

Excuse me?? The standard FDA-recommended dose for dutasteride is 0.5 mg per day.

 

[chromedomefear]

Thanks Bryan. I understand that, but since it isn't engineered for hair loss, I didn't know if that dosage was for prostate use, and perhaps a different dosage is typically suggested for hair loss. There are many bio-chemists on this site (some self-proclaimed) that suggest a "typical" dosage that differs from the FDA dosage.

 

[Bryan]

Thanks Bryan. I understand that, but since it isn't engineered for hair loss, I didn't know if that dosage was for prostate use, and perhaps a different dosage is typically suggested for hair loss. There are many bio-chemists on this site (some self-proclaimed) that suggest a "typical" dosage that differs from the FDA dosage.

I'm sure you're thinking of the different doses of finasteride that are approved for treating hairloss (Propecia -- 1 mg) versus BPH (Proscar -- 5 mg), but I think those choices by the FDA were more political than scientific. The dose/response of finasteride seems to be "flatter" than it is with dutasteride, meaning that a small dose works nearly as well as a larger one. But dutasteride does seem to work noticeably better for male pattern baldness at higher doses, with tested doses ranging from as low as 0.05 mg/day (not as effective as Proscar) to 0.1 mg/day (almost exactly as effective as Proscar) to 0.5 mg/day (more effective than Proscar) to 2.5 mg/day (even more effective still).

So it's basically anybody's guess which specific dose of dutasteride the FDA would choose for dutasteride, if they were to approve it for treating hairloss. Personally, I'd recommend using the same 0.5 mg/day dose approved for BPH.