This is it: I am infertile!
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Shma
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Here's another one:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=56087&p=534901&hilit=sperm+quality#p534901
I have seen a few sperm tests of people on finasteride, and most of them looked like this.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=56087&p=534901&hilit=sperm+quality#p534901
I have seen a few sperm tests of people on finasteride, and most of them looked like this.
dougfunny
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Fanjeera said:
What good is a sperm test if you did not have your sperm tested before hand?
2% of the male population is infertile. How do you know you are not in that percentage?
Also I'm curious, you said your sperm was watery. Is it still watery?
And those sperm tests are not relevant to you because those people took it for two years. In two years, your prostate literally shrinks. So there is a logical explanation for less sperm production. When people take Propecia for BHP it takes many months for the prostate to shrink.
What I don't get is why you are trying to play doctor instead of letting the endo or urologist deal with this. There are lots of fertility treatments. Have you discussed them with your doctor? Whether or not it was from propecia is completely irrelevant at this point.
Look at steroid users. What they take is 100x stronger that Propecia and it is completely common for it to totally shut down the testes and cause infertility. And generally with fertility drugs they can fix it. So if it was hormone related it's probably reversible. So I would go and tell your doctor you to treat this.
Fanjeera
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After taking my first Propecia pill my sperm just changed suddenly and hasn't become back normal. It's transparent, doesn't fly, very low in amount, sometimes jelly and sometimes watery. Nothing like it was before... WHY did this happen? This pill was only supposed to stop 5ar2... What else could also be wrong in my body that I'm not yet aware of?
dougfunny
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Shma said:
Why is that so unreasonable? 2% is a lot. That is 1 out of every 50 men.
You're getting breast enlargement is not a coincidence because there is an established connection and a logical explanation. 1-2% get that side effect (not .001%), so you can't be upset over what the manufacturer told you beforehand might happen.
I got breast enlargement (from dutasteride, not finasteride) but again there was only a 1% chance and I got unlucky.
Fanjeera said:
First off, your sperm did not change. Your semen changed. You cannot see sperm with the naked eye.
Mine did too. It affects 1/50 users.
Why did it happen? Because 5AR2 has an effect on the prostate and the prostate contributes to semen. And the manufacturer states (even in the TV commercials) that sexual side effects occur, and that watery semen is one of them). This happens to 1/50.
Out of concern that this was causing fertility issues, there have been 8 or so studies to find out if finasteride affected the sperm. In every single one of them, it had no effect on morphology whatsoever.
What did the doctor say about possible treatments?
Really? I wouldn't be so sure about that.
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10 ... 0701426471
Spermatozoa and Chronic Treatment with Finasteride: A TEM and FISH Study
Finasteride is a specific inhibitor of the 5? reductase enzyme originally approved for the treatment of benign prostatic hypertrophy and also for the treatment of androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) in men at a dose of 1 mg/day.
We report on three cases of young men recruited at our Centre for Male Infertility who had used finasteride for five years. Semen quality was investigated by light microscopy to evaluate sperm concentration and motility. Sperm morphology was performed by transmission electron microscope (TEM) and the data were analyzed.
The presence of Y microdeletions was investigated by PCR. Meiotic segregation was explored by fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH).
Patient 1 was azoospermic, patients 2 and 3 showed a normal sperm concentration and severely reduced progressive motility. TEM analysis revealed altered sperm morphology consistent with necrosis and FISH data revealed elevated diploidy and sex chromosome disomy frequencies.
This examination was repeated 1 year after the men had suspended the use of finasteride, without receiving any other treatment. A recovery of spermatogenetic process was observed. Motility and morphology improved whereas the meiotic pattern did not change presenting elevated diploidy and sex chromosome disomy frequency.
dougfunny
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Mew said:
I agree with you that there does seem to be some evidence that in people with pre-existing fertility issues, finasteride can make it worse.
It's worth noting that in every case presented, however, the user had taken finasteride for a significant period of time. The OP only used it for a few days.
Also, in most of the case reports I have seen the condition reversed itself after discontinuation. In the cases where it did not, there is no evidence to suggest that the patient was not infertile before starting the drug.
In healthy men that take this drug, there seems to be a lot of evidence that it does not affect sperm:
That "study" you quoted:
1. Is from 1999. Since then there have been other studies conducted, such as the one I posted, which have shown the drug does have negative effects on spermatogenesis.
2. One of the authors of that study you quote is KEITH D KAUFMAN, who works for Merck and was a prime facilitator in getting the drug approved, presenting to the FDA etc, downplaying side effects in nearly every Finasteride study he's ever been involved in.
3. If you look at the bottom of your "study", you'll see this:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... bc76c72d16
Supported by Merck & Co., Inc., Rahway, New Jersey.
Financial support and/or other relationship with Merck & Co.
Financial support and/or other relationship with Pfizer and Vivus.
Financial support and/or other relationship with Schering, TAP, Senetek, ALZA and Roche.
Financial support and/or other relationship with Influence and American Medical Systems.
-----------
Now, are you seriously going to sit here and tell us there is NO bias on teh part of the authors to downplay the risks of this drug, considering they funded and are authors of the very study you quote above?
Give me -- and us -- a break. Here's some info for you to chew on in the meantime:
viewtopic.php?p=463430#p463430
As noted in link above -- when The MHRA (UK's FDA) state the genetic and epigenetic effects of Finasteride treatment on sperm is unknown, and when the FDA admits the longterm effects of Finasteride on male fertility remain unknown, that should give you pause for thought.
Also, Discussion section of this paper is interesting, especially pg 286... http://www.scielo.br/pdf/acb/v23n3/12.pdf
dougfunny
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You're right, it is a big conflict of interest. This is a big issue in the medical community. A lot of time drug companies will fund university studies and the universities do not even require the sponsors of the study to appear on the paper.
What I find disconcerting is that the independent study found a decrease in motility and sperm count while the other did not.
However, even the independent one did not find any effect on morphology, which is the one that would scare me. I don't know how significant a 6% decrease in motility is.
viewtopic.php?p=463430#p463430
[/quote]
That is pretty disturbing. It would be nice if they could figure out a way to see if the tubules return to normal after discontinuation.
The FDA should really get their act together and require fertility studies on this (and all) drugs.
In the mean time I would say the vast majority of users do not have to be concerned, though, since almost all the evidence suggests the effects are of a transient nature.
It would seem those looking for the fastest and best chance of conception should probably discontinue the drug six months beforehand, and certainly discontinue it if they are having trouble conceiving. And most men taking the drug will not know this, so the FDA really should require this info.
What I do not see is any reason to believe that taking this drug for 3 days would have an effect on the OPs sperm after a month at most.
dougfunny
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Fanjeera said:
Well, look, what is done is done at this point so you really need to get over this. I would really suggest you talk to a psychiatrist since this is obviously having an impact on your mood.
You're not suffering from any conditions that are not treatable, so you are just throwing your life away if you don't deal with them.
Even if you decide to have kids there are a lot of fertility treatments and such that could help. You really do not have it that bad.
Just be happy you did not have this rare side effect. From what I understand it is almost always permanent.
Eureka
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Interesting considering Psychiatrists specialize in fighting mental illness, and depression is considered a mental illness no?
They can also prescribe medication, like anti depressants, which also aid in treating depression.
Which since I'm no doctor I'm not going to say the op has. But it's very likely the reason he doesn't feel like himself, is because his mental state has changed since discovering this information . As anyone's would.
Fanjeera
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I decided to make this my official side effects' thread. This is a nice enough forum for such discussion and there a lot helpful people. Let it be here for a warning to other finasteride users and those who are yet deciding to take the drug.
My blood tests:
1) Done in October 2009:
S-LH 7.03 U/I (1.7 - 8.6)
S-FSH 2.63 U/I (1.5 - 12.4)
S-Estradiol 99.5 pmol/l (28-156)
S-Testosterone 26.3 nmol/l (9-27.8)
2) Done in November 2009:
SHBG 28 nmol/l 1,3-71
LH 11 U/l 1,7-8,6
FSH 2,49 U/l 1,5-12,4
Prolactin 150 mU/l 98-456
Estradiol 162 pmol/l 28-156
Testosterone 17,7 nmol/l 9-27,8
3) Done in March 2010:
FSH 1,72 (0,7 ... 11,1 U/L)
LH 3,93 (0,8 ... 7,6 U/L)
Estradiol 244 (<206 pmol/L)
Testosterone 36,6 (nmol/L)
DHEAS 9,74 (2,2 ... 15,2 mmol/L)
Androstenedione 16,5 (2,1 ... 10,8 nmol/L)
My latest sperm test (you can see the first one in the first post):
Capacity 4,57 ml (>2)
Sperm count 35 M/ml (>40)
Whole count 159,9 M
Mobility 5% fast (>25%), 21% moderate (>50% the last 2 together), on spot 19%, immobile 55%
Morphology 4% normal (>10%), 91% head defect, 51% middle part defect, 22% tail defect, 2% development errors (<160% the last 4 together)
As you can see my sperm has got a little better, but my estradiol values are still growing.
My blood tests:
1) Done in October 2009:
S-LH 7.03 U/I (1.7 - 8.6)
S-FSH 2.63 U/I (1.5 - 12.4)
S-Estradiol 99.5 pmol/l (28-156)
S-Testosterone 26.3 nmol/l (9-27.8)
2) Done in November 2009:
SHBG 28 nmol/l 1,3-71
LH 11 U/l 1,7-8,6
FSH 2,49 U/l 1,5-12,4
Prolactin 150 mU/l 98-456
Estradiol 162 pmol/l 28-156
Testosterone 17,7 nmol/l 9-27,8
3) Done in March 2010:
FSH 1,72 (0,7 ... 11,1 U/L)
LH 3,93 (0,8 ... 7,6 U/L)
Estradiol 244 (<206 pmol/L)
Testosterone 36,6 (nmol/L)
DHEAS 9,74 (2,2 ... 15,2 mmol/L)
Androstenedione 16,5 (2,1 ... 10,8 nmol/L)
My latest sperm test (you can see the first one in the first post):
Capacity 4,57 ml (>2)
Sperm count 35 M/ml (>40)
Whole count 159,9 M
Mobility 5% fast (>25%), 21% moderate (>50% the last 2 together), on spot 19%, immobile 55%
Morphology 4% normal (>10%), 91% head defect, 51% middle part defect, 22% tail defect, 2% development errors (<160% the last 4 together)
As you can see my sperm has got a little better, but my estradiol values are still growing.
