Tissuse Interview, Ask Your Questions Here!

[H]

It is.

The procedure isn't limited to the walls of the clinic. You need cell-cultivation plants, staff, storage, shipping, maintenance, and this is all before the process would be fully-automated.



So, that's expensive.



Take it from a guy who sets his own hours, and names his own prices in a business where there is no theoretical limit to what you can charge and the top dogs only need to do 3 - 5 — or sometimes fewer — projects to pay their bills for the entire year and the absolute highest tier often command million-dollar paychecks per gig. I've seen guys turn down gigs that will pay $10,000 and would only take them a month to do because it's "too low" for them and they'll instead pass it off to someone lesser-known: People do not work more than they have or want to.

To you and I, that sounds insane: but people who make a lot of money do it every day.

You're also forgetting that a regular transplant surgeon doesn't have to wait cellular cultivation. Conventional transplants are same-day procedures, but you have to wait weeks to actually treat a "hair primordium" patient.

If a transplant surgeon can do say...3 transplants in a day; even after he pays his staff and taxes, he has still made a shitload of money. Lots of in-demand cosmetic surgeons need only do a few surgeries per month to be able to afford nice houses, cars, travel, etc.

So, if someone comes to them and says "Hey, we have this revolutionary procedure that requires your skillset and would allow you to treat a lot more patients, but it will only cost a third (or whatever other fraction) of what your normal procedure does. So you'll have to see a lot more patients in a day to match your current revenue or greater." Most of them are going to say "Lol, no."

They'd stick to their conventional treatment that allows them to do less work and still make the money they want to and let younger newcomers do the new thing. They'll eventually be put out of work by the new procedure? So what, they've been sitting on salaries and assets that would allow them to retire right now, if they wanted to.

We can't really say all of these hair loss surgeons behave like that though. They can't make you come in they have to work around what patients want if everyone wants the Riken method and knows hair transplants are sh*t when compared that business mostly goes away. I doubt all surgeons are on the cusp of retirement or even want to be. I don't think it will be but if its unattainable it is what it is so much for that might as well ignore this method most of us because if it is too high priced its not coming down for anyone in this lifetime might as well forget it and get a jacket for Bimmlers club I'll buy the first round.

 

[That Guy]

We can't really say all of these hair loss surgeons behave like that though. They can't make you come in they have to work around what patients want if everyone wants the Riken method and knows hair transplants are sh*t when compared that business mostly goes away. I doubt all surgeons are on the cusp of retirement or even want to be. I don't think it will be but if its unattainable it is what it is so much for that might as well ignore this method most of us because if it is too high priced its not coming down for anyone in this lifetime might as well forget it and get a jacket for Bimmlers club I'll buy the first round.

Prices do drop on cosmetic surgeries over time, though; I'm not sure why this is your take away from this conversation.

The point is supposed to be "It's not a practical solution until such time as it is available near you, and that will take time."

 

[H]

Prices do drop on cosmetic surgeries over time, though; I'm not sure why this is your take away from this conversation.

The point is supposed to be "It's not a practical solution until such time as it is available near you, and that will take time."

I see your point your concerned with the geography I agree on that. I was under the impression you meant the treatment alone is going to cost way too much being why it was unattainable and I just couldn't see that practicle at least not for anyone above poverty. I know it will be expensive but some people proclaiming this therapy to be near 6 digits and saying it will come down to a reasonable price later are I believe sadly mistaken if they were to start it out at 70g let's just say relative to current transplants and hair loss severety (most nw5 on will be looking at this) its not going to come down to what a average Joe can afford in our lifetime. (If indeed that is what they start at I don't believe so but well see) I know some body augmentations have come down in price on average since they first arrived but it has not a been a steep decline at all.

 

[Christian Miller]

It is.

The procedure isn't limited to the walls of the clinic. You need cell-cultivation plants, staff, storage, shipping, maintenance, and this is all before the process would be fully-automated.

I didn't say it won't be a complicated procedure. Actually, I did point out that the bioengineering part will be the most elaborate one.
True, creating hair germs won't be an easy task. But Kyocera is part of the business already to tackle this particular issue.
If the whole technology is met with success, I really can't imagine why investors wouldn't be interested in investing in a 3+ billion$ market, especially in big markets like the U.S. or the E.E..

So, that's expensive.

Nobody says it won't be.
But a 100,000$ price seems ludicrous to me.

Take it from a guy who sets his own hours, and names his own prices in a business where there is no theoretical limit to what you can charge and the top dogs only need to do 3 - 5 — or sometimes fewer — projects to pay their bills for the entire year and the absolute highest tier often command million-dollar paychecks per gig. I've seen guys turn down gigs that will pay $10,000 and would only take them a month to do because it's "too low" for them and they'll instead pass it off to someone lesser-known: People do not work more than they have or want to.

To you and I, that sounds insane: but people who make a lot of money do it every day.

You're also forgetting that a regular transplant surgeon doesn't have to wait cellular cultivation. Conventional transplants are same-day procedures, but you have to wait weeks to actually treat a "hair primordium" patient.

If a transplant surgeon can do say...3 transplants in a day; even after he pays his staff and taxes, he has still made a shitload of money. Lots of in-demand cosmetic surgeons need only do a few surgeries per month to be able to afford nice houses, cars, travel, etc.

So, if someone comes to them and says "Hey, we have this revolutionary procedure that requires your skillset and would allow you to treat a lot more patients, but it will only cost a third (or whatever other fraction) of what your normal procedure does. So you'll have to see a lot more patients in a day to match your current revenue or greater." Most of them are going to say "Lol, no."

They'd stick to their conventional treatment that allows them to do less work and still make the money they want to and let younger newcomers do the new thing. They'll eventually be put out of work by the new procedure? So what, they've been sitting on salaries and assets that would allow them to retire right now, if they wanted to.

Hmmm...
Interesting.
So, you mean that surgeons won't be interested in making the same amount of money or even more with less labor?
Really interesting.
I guess you think surgeons are masochists or something.
Cool!

PS. Surgeons deal with real people, unlike music producers who tend to cocoon themselves in a bubble, that is not reality.

 

[That Guy]

But a 100,000$ price seems ludicrous to me.

Again, for a NW7 to go back to NW1 in one shot, there is simply no way this costs less than a 5-digit number.

Factor in the traveling, accommodations, food, especially if you have to do it multiple times in the span of 2-3 years; you could easily arrive close to a six figure amount.

Hmmm...
Interesting.
So, you mean that surgeons won't be interested in making the same amount of money or even more with less labor?
Really interesting.
I guess you think surgeons are masochists or something.
Cool!

PS. Surgeons deal with real people, unlike music producers who tend to cocoon themselves in a bubble, that is not reality.

This will require a great deal of finesse to administer. Do you think they seek to work with the top-of-their-game surgeons for no good reason?

P.S. Nice shot at a dig, unfortunately you're completely wrong. Most people who work in the TV/Film/Gaming industries in any creative capacity spend years giving up talents for free, traveling to make connections, and it takes an average of 20 - 30 years before a composer starts seeing real money (and some never do) and when they do, the high prices are usually charged to studios with budgets in the millions.

Instead of what most hair transplant surgeons do: Gouge the average Joe for the equivalent of many people's annual salaries for mediocre coverage and even then, weak results aren't uncommon.

 

[Christian Miller]

P.S. Nice shot at a dig, unfortunately you're completely wrong. Most people who work in the TV/Film/Gaming industries in any creative capacity spend years giving up talents for free, traveling to make connections, and it takes an average of 20 - 30 years before a composer starts seeing real money (and some never do) and when they do, the high prices are usually charged to studios with budgets in the millions.

Instead of what most hair transplant surgeons do: Gouge the average Joe for the equivalent of many people's annual salaries for mediocre coverage and even then, weak results aren't uncommon.

LOL
Were you offended or something?
Frankly, had no intention of doing that, mate.

There is no doubt a NW7 will be digging deep into his pockets to get a new mane.
That stands true even today.
In 2017, a NW7 need have at least two procedures to get decent density and still, most of the times, the results are mediocre.
That's some 30,000$, isn't it?

Furthemore, I don't think, even if they manage to create new healthy follicles by 2019, that it's gonna get available en masse before 2025.
However, by that time or even some time later, let's say 2028, the procedure is gonna be available en masse and the price is gonna be reasonable, not cheap, but reasonable.
Don't you agree?

 

[That Guy]

Furthemore, I don't think, even if they manage to create new healthy follicles by 2019, that it's gonna get available en masse before 2025.
However, by that time or even some time later, let's say 2028, the procedure is gonna be available en masse and the price is gonna be reasonable, not cheap, but reasonable.
Don't you agree?

Yeah, I do, and now I'm not sure why we just had this conversation.

In that timeframe, I will be in my mid to late 30s.

I am absolutely not waiting for that.

So I stand by what I said: As enthusiastic as I am about Tsuji's tech, it's not going to be reasonable for most of us and if he were to fail, there is no way anyone else specifically into "hair multiplication" is going to be able to deliver for years to come unless there is a huge breakthrough and a change in regulations, which is nothing short of a miracle — the logistics are simply not in our favor.

Thus, I feel other developing technologies are a more realistic option before I'm well past the age where I'd have just said "f*** it" and got a transplant or other people who won't take finasteride should've long since invested in a hair system.

 

[H]

Thus, I feel other developing technologies are a more realistic option before I'm well past the age where I'd have just said "f*** it" and got a transplant or other people who won't take finasteride should've long since invested in a hair system

So Follica... that's the only one aimed at giving us new hairs the others are mostly maintenance and sparse regrowth. Follica is the only one who is setting their bar high for regrowth. I know you've said that will multiple application you don't see why it couldn't bring a nw7 slick back to fullish density which I hope it does but I'm not putting my torch and pitchfork away just yet. I've got to see that data or hear something... damn it Cots anything!

 

[MrV88]

So Follica... that's the only one aimed at giving us new hairs the others are mostly maintenance and sparse regrowth. Follica is the only one who is setting their bar high for regrowth. I know you've said that will multiple application you don't see why it couldn't bring a nw7 slick back to fullish density which I hope it does but I'm not putting my torch and pitchfork away just yet. I've got to see that data or hear something... damn it Cots anything!

Maybe their procedure produces those suggested 100 hairs/cm² and the rest of the product that the customer has to do at home is just for maintaining?

 

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, I do, and now I'm not sure why we just had this conversation.

In that timeframe, I will be in my mid to late 30s.

I am absolutely not waiting for that.

So I stand by what I said: As enthusiastic as I am about Tsuji's tech, it's not going to be reasonable for most of us and if he were to fail, there is no way anyone else specifically into "hair multiplication" is going to be able to deliver for years to come unless there is a huge breakthrough and a change in regulations, which is nothing short of a miracle — the logistics are simply not in our favor.

Thus, I feel other developing technologies are a more realistic option before I'm well past the age where I'd have just said "f*** it" and got a transplant or other people who won't take finasteride should've long since invested in a hair system.

What other technologies?
Follica?
Seriously?

 

[Christian Miller]

Maybe their procedure produces those suggested 100 hairs/cm² and the rest of the product that the customer has to do at home is just for maintaining?

Regenerating 100 hairs/cm² would be great, but we have no such evidence yet.

 

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, I do, and now I'm not sure why we just had this conversation.

In that timeframe, I will be in my mid to late 30s.

I am absolutely not waiting for that.

So I stand by what I said: As enthusiastic as I am about Tsuji's tech, it's not going to be reasonable for most of us and if he were to fail, there is no way anyone else specifically into "hair multiplication" is going to be able to deliver for years to come unless there is a huge breakthrough and a change in regulations, which is nothing short of a miracle — the logistics are simply not in our favor.

Thus, I feel other developing technologies are a more realistic option before I'm well past the age where I'd have just said "f*** it" and got a transplant or other people who won't take finasteride should've long since invested in a hair system.

And why does failing to regenerate hairs via organ germ technology on humans mean the whole technology is a crap?
They just have to improve their technology, not start from scratch.

 

[MrV88]

Regenerating 100 hairs/cm² would be great, but we have no such evidence yet.

Wasn't talking about the 100 hairs explicitly. Could be 0 or 200 don't know we have to waiy, just wondering why multiple procedures won't produce more hair although it just would be logical

 

[Christian Miller]

Wasn't talking about the 100 hairs explicitly. Could be 0 or 200 don't know we have to waiy, just wondering why multiple procedures won't produce more hair although it just would be logical

I think you should wait.
There could be several reasons multiple wounding sessions wouldn't work.
For example, the neohair would suffer major stress and shed.

 

[MrV88]

I think you should wait.
There could be several reasons multiple wounding sessions wouldn't work.
For example, the neohair would suffer major stress and shed.

Nah I mean several sessions like once a year or after the neohair got strong enough. Just wondering if mutiple sessions would be possible at all if this really grows hairs in the first place

 

[Christian Miller]

Nah I mean several sessions like once a year or after the neohair got strong enough. Just wondering if mutiple sessions would be possible at all if this really grows hairs in the first place

Wounding does grow hair.
There is almost no doubt about that.
We just don't know how many follicles, their quality and their lifespan.
Besides, wounding results in fibrosis (unless they have managed to tackle that or, at least, limit its extend) and fibrotic tissue is a lot inferior to non-fibrotic connective tissue.

 

[H]

Maybe their procedure produces those suggested 100 hairs/cm² and the rest of the product that the customer has to do at home is just for maintaining?

I'm diffuse so this would be great for people like me who have some hair but how long that hair lasts who knows I could be slick nw6 by next year, all of my hair loss has happened between 3 years and just stopped for some reason. Humans naturally have around 200 per cm so if your slick bald and get 100 per your still at that halfway thinning look. If youve receded maybe Norwood 3 or 2 its slick bald and you get 100 per square its still going to look like party in the back and losing business in the front that's my concern. I don't want to regrow a few hairs here and there to try and look like I did I want that hair I had before it even started and it to BE what it was or something close. I'm all or nothing I already shave it down to the skin.

 

[That Guy]

What other technologies?
Follica?
Seriously?

Yes, seriously. This conversation is starting to get completely stupid with your fanboying over Tsuji.

I know there's a lot of hate for them around here, because apparently people have some vendetta with Cots (who is just one part of the team), I know people have this bizarre hatred of minoxidil likely being one of their compounds (which is a proven compound), and people root for these companies like they're god-damned sports teams, but whether you're cheering for them or not, the reality is it you'll likely being using Follica's tech in a few years.

The fact that you haven't seen "data" and "pictures" when frankly, that's literally "none of your business" for a product that is going through the system as per government protocol being used by people as cause for doubt is hilarious.

The USA, unlike the Bahamas or China, actually has standards when it comes to approving medical procedures and surgery. It has to work to pass phase III and pharmaceutical companies like PureTech do not spend years and years and the huge expenses that are involved in developing proprietary devices, running trials, getting dermatologists on board with it, and pushing it to a pivotal trial if it isn't better than conventional treatments and will bring in a large profit; otherwise, they've just pissed away a lot of money.

This isn't like Chinese laser combs preying on gullible NW4s, ffs

@occulus, whom I rarely see eye to eye with, is arguably the best at explaining this, and I'd appreciate if he chimed in.

And why does failing to regenerate hairs via organ germ technology on humans mean the whole technology is a crap?
They just have to improve their technology, not start from scratch.

"Improving the technology" is what they've been trying to do with hair multiplication for a decade or better now. The cell-cultivation issue is the issue that has stood in the way. If, for some reason, Tsuji's method didn't work with human cells; then the technology is right back where it started.

 

[Nadia1972]

People who can benefit from grafts are a minority. That 's why it 's expensive. To make profitable. But if a method can benefit 100% of balds, the costs will automatically decrease

 

[Nadia1972]

Wounding does grow hair.
There is almost no doubt about that.
We just don't know how many follicles, their quality and their lifespan.
Besides, wounding results in fibrosis (unless they have managed to tackle that or, at least, limit its extend) and fibrotic tissue is a lot inferior to non-fibrotic connective tissue.

If the wounding was proven cots would have already filed a patent.For now it's only a theory

 

[Christian Miller]

Yes, seriously. This conversation is starting to get completely stupid with your fanboying over Tsuji.

I know there's a lot of hate for them around here, because apparently people have some vendetta with Cots (who is just one part of the team), I know people have this bizarre hatred of minoxidil likely being one of their compounds (which is a proven compound), and people root for these companies like they're god-damned sports teams, but whether you're cheering for them or not, the reality is it you'll likely being using Follica's tech in a few years.

The fact that you haven't seen "data" and "pictures" when frankly, that's literally "none of your business" for a product that is going through the system as per government protocol being used by people as cause for doubt is hilarious.

The USA, unlike the Bahamas or China, actually has standards when it comes to approving medical procedures and surgery. It has to work to pass phase III and pharmaceutical companies like PureTech do not spend years and years and the huge expenses that are involved in developing proprietary devices, running trials, getting dermatologists on board with it, and pushing it to a pivotal trial if it isn't better than conventional treatments and will bring in a large profit; otherwise, they've just pissed away a lot of money.

This isn't like Chinese laser combs preying on gullible NW4s, ffs

@occulus, whom I rarely see eye to eye with, is arguably the best at explaining this, and I'd appreciate if he chimed in.



"Improving the technology" is what they've been trying to do with hair multiplication for a decade or better now. The cell-cultivation issue is the issue that has stood in the way. If, for some reason, Tsuji's method didn't work with human cells; then the technology is right back where it started.

I really don't get it.
Is it your thing to be offensive?
Or am I doing myself something wrong?

We are just having a discussion.

I'm rooting for none, That Guy. None.

I don't care if it's Tsuji, Follica or Brotzu (just kidding).

I just find it really difficult to believe that Follica will be able to generate substantial amounts of hairs. That's all.
I wish I'm wrong, though. I do.

As for Tsuji, all we can do is wait.

 

[Christian Miller]

If the wounding was proven cots would have already filed a patent.For now it's only a theory

There is data out there substantiating that wounding can generate hair follicles.
But there is just grey area.
Hopefully, some light will be shed in the near future.