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Newbaldy84
Established Member
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It is Ru and looks like it wasn't put aside after all 8)
michael barry
Senior Member
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Damn,
Is anyone FINALLY gonna put this out? It would be wonderful in my opinion. A practically guaranteed way to keep what you have and used in conjunction with peptides, perhaps a way to get some back. Young men would never have to go bald.
Is anyone FINALLY gonna put this out? It would be wonderful in my opinion. A practically guaranteed way to keep what you have and used in conjunction with peptides, perhaps a way to get some back. Young men would never have to go bald.
sphlanx2006
Experienced Member
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Michael, you really believe it would be so effective? Does this mean you believe that DHT and T is 100% the reason for male pattern baldness?
michael barry
Senior Member
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sphlanx,
RU58841 is a receptor blocker. It blocks receptors like flutamide does, but isn't systemically absorbed like flutamide is. It doesn't give you those pesky breasts, sex-drive destruction, masculinity destruction, muscular atropy side effects.
RU58841 would block ALL male hormone from binding to receptor sites on the dermal papilla cytoplasm where they are located and the receptor sites on the sebaceous gland (no more oily scalp----scalp would be dry like it was when you were a child). Male hormones blocked would include androstendione, dehydroepiadrosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, DHT, testosterone.
Research has indicated that if you give enough testosterone to wreath-area hairs placed in test tubes, you can make them sensitive to it and weaken growth. Bodybuilders who take andro often lose hair. Testosterone and andro dont do your head hair any favors. They dont bind as eagerly or as solidly as DHT, but they hurt too. Receptor blockers that were effective for 24 hours would keep em' all at bay, and give other substances like peptides, minoxidil, etc. a better chance of regrowing some of what has been lost.
receptor blockers should definetely see you keep what ya' got until very old age.
RU58841 is a receptor blocker. It blocks receptors like flutamide does, but isn't systemically absorbed like flutamide is. It doesn't give you those pesky breasts, sex-drive destruction, masculinity destruction, muscular atropy side effects.
RU58841 would block ALL male hormone from binding to receptor sites on the dermal papilla cytoplasm where they are located and the receptor sites on the sebaceous gland (no more oily scalp----scalp would be dry like it was when you were a child). Male hormones blocked would include androstendione, dehydroepiadrosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, DHT, testosterone.
Research has indicated that if you give enough testosterone to wreath-area hairs placed in test tubes, you can make them sensitive to it and weaken growth. Bodybuilders who take andro often lose hair. Testosterone and andro dont do your head hair any favors. They dont bind as eagerly or as solidly as DHT, but they hurt too. Receptor blockers that were effective for 24 hours would keep em' all at bay, and give other substances like peptides, minoxidil, etc. a better chance of regrowing some of what has been lost.
receptor blockers should definetely see you keep what ya' got until very old age.
AussieExperiment
Established Member
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Anyone know more about this?
Does anyone know more about this? Is there a timeline available as too when trials may be completed?
Does anyone know more about this? Is there a timeline available as too when trials may be completed?
It would not block all of them. RU is less effective at reducing flank organ size than castration is, though it is close. It is better than finasteride on balding monkeys, though, and would work synergistically with oral finasteride. Apple poly would work synergystically with the pair.
Androgens are the only reason for hair loss that we know of.
Androgens are the only reason for hair loss that we know of.
If you blocked 100 percent of dht and testosterone for every hair on the scalp and could keep that effect long enough without it becoming systemic. You would probably be able to keep all your hair for as long as you used it. I think testosterone and DHT are both important in male pattern baldness. We need to stop both to completely halt hairloss.
michael barry
Senior Member
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scalp hair thrives with absolutely no androgens at all.
scalp hair does not need any androgens to grow at all.
body hair on the other hand, has to have male hormones or it will not grow, thus we can correctly conclude that there is a difference between the two.
People with androgen-insensetivity sydnrome have beautiful head hair and minimal body hair on thier chests, abdomens, arms and legs. They do have some pubic and underarm hair--------like females do.
I personally am a hairy SOB and I even have hair on my fingers and toes.
scalp hair does not need any androgens to grow at all.
body hair on the other hand, has to have male hormones or it will not grow, thus we can correctly conclude that there is a difference between the two.
People with androgen-insensetivity sydnrome have beautiful head hair and minimal body hair on thier chests, abdomens, arms and legs. They do have some pubic and underarm hair--------like females do.
I personally am a hairy SOB and I even have hair on my fingers and toes.
docj077
Senior Member
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michael barry said:
I'm just trying to figure out how it's even possible. What releases the growth factors when androgens aren't present or can't bind? Is there a constant low level release of these factors from the dermal papillae regardless of androgen receptor function?
michael barry
Senior Member
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I thought you seen those pictures of women who shot themselves up with testosterone that I posted?
Did you see the study of females who used testosterone (to be like men) and their ensuing baldness? 50% were NW2 to NW6 after 13 years. They went Male Pattern Bald
The women on the Oprah Winfrey show with their TWIN sisters who used testosterone---------------One was Norwood 3.5V and the other had alot of thinning and greying and ageing of her hair (and skin) with testosterone therapy, vs her twin sis who had beautiful thick hair that was unaged and looked like a teens hair.
Ive found 2 formerly female pornstars (who still have female genitalia) that use testosterone to be like men. They look just like men, with big beards (hell, thicker than mine) body hair (although one shaves hers) and they went....................you guessed it, Male Pattern Bald.
Just as many caucasian women would go bald as men if they simply had the testosterone to do it. They have the alpha five reductase enzymes in their hairs just like we do, but not testosterone to transform it into DHT.
It just looks to me like the DNA in the hairs themselves are responsible for baldness and there is a threshold at which head hair can no longer take male hormone, and that threshold is obviously much lower in many of us than others of us. Receptor mutations probably make much more androgen available to these hairs and speeds this process up, so men with them are likely to have them in their body hair too and be furry critters like myself, but balding up top. Bryan's posted that men with total androgen ablation (castration plus flutamide) dont have further loss.
By the way,,,,,,,,,,,,eyebrow hair isn't very androgen sensitive at all, and if you get castrated and take flutamide, you'll still have it. Eyelash hair is the same way. Any hair that women have, like pubic or armpit hair, apparently only needs tiny amounts of male hormone to grow or isnt androgen-sensitive nearly to the extent of head hair.
Ive emailed a company that makes a hair removal product, because they claim its not a delapitory, but uses fruit extracts and explains their product works like the reverse of male pattern baldness to see if they are using an anti-androgenic concoction. THe rest of the ingredients, the PPG, the methylparabens, etc. , look just like baldness products.
Did you see the study of females who used testosterone (to be like men) and their ensuing baldness? 50% were NW2 to NW6 after 13 years. They went Male Pattern Bald
The women on the Oprah Winfrey show with their TWIN sisters who used testosterone---------------One was Norwood 3.5V and the other had alot of thinning and greying and ageing of her hair (and skin) with testosterone therapy, vs her twin sis who had beautiful thick hair that was unaged and looked like a teens hair.
Ive found 2 formerly female pornstars (who still have female genitalia) that use testosterone to be like men. They look just like men, with big beards (hell, thicker than mine) body hair (although one shaves hers) and they went....................you guessed it, Male Pattern Bald.
Just as many caucasian women would go bald as men if they simply had the testosterone to do it. They have the alpha five reductase enzymes in their hairs just like we do, but not testosterone to transform it into DHT.
It just looks to me like the DNA in the hairs themselves are responsible for baldness and there is a threshold at which head hair can no longer take male hormone, and that threshold is obviously much lower in many of us than others of us. Receptor mutations probably make much more androgen available to these hairs and speeds this process up, so men with them are likely to have them in their body hair too and be furry critters like myself, but balding up top. Bryan's posted that men with total androgen ablation (castration plus flutamide) dont have further loss.
By the way,,,,,,,,,,,,eyebrow hair isn't very androgen sensitive at all, and if you get castrated and take flutamide, you'll still have it. Eyelash hair is the same way. Any hair that women have, like pubic or armpit hair, apparently only needs tiny amounts of male hormone to grow or isnt androgen-sensitive nearly to the extent of head hair.
Ive emailed a company that makes a hair removal product, because they claim its not a delapitory, but uses fruit extracts and explains their product works like the reverse of male pattern baldness to see if they are using an anti-androgenic concoction. THe rest of the ingredients, the PPG, the methylparabens, etc. , look just like baldness products.
docj077
Senior Member
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Michael,
I'm aware of the outcome of testosterone injections in women, but I'm still very curious to know what causes hair growth in the absence of androgens. male pattern baldness developing in women that receive testosterone injections seems to demonstrate that prolonged administration of androgens is required for the process. Do you know if the dermal papillae continuous releases growth factors? If so, does the release of growth factors increase with androgen binding?
I don't know if you're aware of the answers to those questions, but I thought I'd ask.
I'm aware of the outcome of testosterone injections in women, but I'm still very curious to know what causes hair growth in the absence of androgens. male pattern baldness developing in women that receive testosterone injections seems to demonstrate that prolonged administration of androgens is required for the process. Do you know if the dermal papillae continuous releases growth factors? If so, does the release of growth factors increase with androgen binding?
I don't know if you're aware of the answers to those questions, but I thought I'd ask.
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docj077 said:
Apparently, yes. In fact, I wouldn't even say that there's a constant "low level" of such release, but a constant BIG, HEALTHY level of such release!
Scalp hair follicles clearly don't require the presence of androgens in any way. They're "programmed" completely differently.Bryan
docj077
Senior Member
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Bryan said:docj077 said:
Apparently, yes. In fact, I wouldn't even say that there's a constant "low level" of such release, but a constant BIG, HEALTHY level of such release!
Bryan
Hmm...that makes sense. Thanks.
So, it appears as though the process is independant of androgen stimulation with regards to what can only be described as "growth maintenance". However, the process is upregulated in the presence of androgens, especially potent ones like DHT and hair growth and diameter can be increased.
Do you know if continuous and increased growth factor release as a result of 5ARs DHT production is what is required for scalp hair to grow so long and increase in diameter? If that's the case, then that would explain the presence of 5AR in the scalp.
Do people with 5AR deficiency of any kind have thinner hair or hair that just doesn't grow as long? Because, they'd still have endogenous androgen production and DHT production eventually, but they'd just not have viable 5AR type II on the hair follicle itself...right? I suppose that even if someone with a male pattern baldness predisposing androgen receptor gene has 5AR deficiency, the lack of potent DHT production locally could potentially prevent male pattern baldness while still allowing some DHT binding as a result of type I 5AR DHT production in other tissues.