Topical Finasteride 0.005% 2 X Daily

[badhabiz]

What about dht ?

dht is very unreliable, nobody would check it, it can fluctuate in the very same day
you need to check sexual precursors (like androstenedione), they are more stable

 

[Xander94]

dht is very unreliable, nobody would check it, it can fluctuate in the very same day
you need to check sexual precursors (like androstenedione), they are more stable

so did ur androgens went down after starting the topical ?

Personally im having a hard time believing such low doses can cause sides,

Especially since im rubbing 200mg of minoxidil on my scalp each day and oral 5mg causes way bigger sides

 

[sonictemples]

prolactin 10,30 (rif. 2-17)
alfa 3 androstenediol 2,50 (3,40-22)
17 beta estradiol 20
testosterone r.i.a. 4,6 (rif. 3,5-9)
free test 19,61 (rif. 1-47)
androstenedione and androsterone dropped .
also had a red flag about glutathione production

how is cetirizine going?

 

[corkmeister]

dht is very unreliable, nobody would check it, it can fluctuate in the very same day
you need to check sexual precursors (like androstenedione), they are more stable

Did you take a bloodtest before finasteride to determine baseline, or additional bloodtests to monitor during treatment? If Mazzarella's dosage was a succes for you for a good year, then giving it up altogether so quickly might be a mistake, in my opinion. It's possible that it reduced your dht levels early on and it took you a year to start experiencing side-effects. In that case, abandoning it makes sense. But it's also possible that your dht levels were in order for most of the year, but eventually crossed the threshold (due to some variable) where dht dropped too much and you started experiencing side-effects. I would be more inclined to adjust the dosage at that point or take a short break to bring 5-ar closer to baseline.

so did ur androgens went down after starting the topical ?

Personally im having a hard time believing such low doses can cause sides,

Especially since im rubbing 200mg of minoxidil on my scalp each day and oral 5mg causes way bigger sides

They definitely can. Exposing the body to small amounts of finasteride will eventually add up over time. 0.01 orally has almost no effect, but 0.04mg (the lowest dose I'm familiar with in studies aside from 0.01) significantly supresses dht levels over time. The trick is applying a topical dose which equates to taking 0.01 orally, and no more than that if you're aiming to avoid side effects. Or that's my take on it at least.

 

[Xander94]

Did you take a bloodtest before finasteride to determine baseline, or additional bloodtests to monitor during treatment? If Mazzarella's dosage was a succes for you for a good year, then giving it up altogether so quickly might be a mistake, in my opinion. It's possible that it reduced your dht levels early on and it took you a year to start experiencing side-effects. In that case, abandoning it makes sense. But it's also possible that your dht levels were in order for most of the year, but eventually crossed the threshold (due to some variable) where dht dropped too much and you started experiencing side-effects. I would be more inclined to adjust the dosage at that point or take a short break to bring 5-ar closer to baseline.



They definitely can. Exposing the body to small amounts of finasteride will eventually add up over time. 0.01 orally has almost no effect, but 0.04mg (the lowest dose I'm familiar with in studies aside from 0.01) significantly supresses dht levels over time. The trick is applying a topical dose which equates to taking 0.01 orally, and no more than that if you're aiming to avoid side effects. Or that's my take on it at least.

0.05mg is the total in mazarella dose, not even 1% of that goes systemic and it doesnt add up it will be eliminated very fast in the body....

anyway believe what u want from the anecdotal crap on this forum i only trust well documented data

 

[Paulito9x9]

I'm about to start 0.02mg topically in about a week (after a failed attempt with 0.12mg). I was thinking of getting a blood test before I do so but I'm not exactly sure what to measure. I wasnt' aware that DHT measurements aren't reliable. What would be the best markers?

 

[badhabiz]

I'm about to start 0.02mg topically in about a week (after a failed attempt with 0.12mg). I was thinking of getting a blood test before I do so but I'm not exactly sure what to measure. I wasnt' aware that DHT measurements aren't reliable. What would be the best markers?

Spermiogram
Estradiol
Fsh
Lh
Shbg
Prolactin
Androstenedione.

Abs no dht, doesnt mean a thing, unless you want to check it 10 times in a week

 

[Xander94]

Spermiogram
Estradiol
Fsh
Lh
Shbg
Prolactin
Androstenedione.

Abs no dht, doesnt mean a thing, unless you want to check it 10 times in a week

it fluctuates but it doesnt go -70% naturally

 

[badhabiz]

Did you take a bloodtest before finasteride to determine baseline, or additional bloodtests to monitor during treatment? If Mazzarella's dosage was a succes for you for a good year, then giving it up altogether so quickly might be a mistake, in my opinion. It's possible that it reduced your dht levels early on and it took you a year to start experiencing side-effects. In that case, abandoning it makes sense. But it's also possible that your dht levels were in order for most of the year, but eventually crossed the threshold (due to some variable) where dht dropped too much and you started experiencing side-effects. I would be more inclined to adjust the dosage at that point or take a short break to bring 5-ar closer to baseline.



They definitely can. Exposing the body to small amounts of finasteride will eventually add up over time. 0.01 orally has almost no effect, but 0.04mg (the lowest dose I'm familiar with in studies aside from 0.01) significantly supresses dht levels over time. The trick is applying a topical dose which equates to taking 0.01 orally, and no more than that if you're aiming to avoid side effects. Or that's my take on it at least.

0.05mg is the total in mazarella dose, not even 1% of that goes systemic and it doesnt add up it will be eliminated very fast in the body....

anyway believe what u want from the anecdotal crap on this forum i only trust well documented data

Yes i had blood tests before, even tho was a long time ago.
But the problem with fina is not dht levels, but the liver which cannot process estrogens spyke in the long run, and the hpg axis reacts to the raising of testosterone regulating itself in a way that makes you experience sides effects (GNRH LH FSH going down)

 

[corkmeister]

0.05mg is the total in mazarella dose, not even 1% of that goes systemic and it doesnt add up it will be eliminated very fast in the body....

anyway believe what u want from the anecdotal crap on this forum i only trust well documented data

If you had bothered to actually read the study, you would have known that 0.005% was applied twice daily.

You shouldn't dismiss people's stories as 'anecdotal crap' out of hand. Too many people have tried Mazzarella's dosage and experienced side effects. But let's set aside for the moment that there's a convincing amount of anecdotes that don't line up with what you're claiming. Go read the Polichem studies, and explain to me how a single dose of 2.5mg topically results in a 20% reduction in serum dht, if less than 1% (1% = 0.025mg) is going systemic. Or how 7 consecutive daily doses of .2275mg results in a 25% reduction in serum dht, if less than 0.002275mg is going systemic.

Or apply 0.1% topically for a month or two and get your dht-levels tested. If you're right, there should be no effect on serum dht.

 

[Canuto]

What about dht ?

He actually measured a way better marker, 3-alfa androstanediol and he's the only one who did it in this forum, as far as I'm aware.
The level is low, which means there's low DHT activity in some tissues, but the limit of it is that we don't know which tissues are affected.

We also don't have a baseline level to evaluate the drop percentage.

 

[Canuto]

If you had bothered to actually read the study, you would have known that 0.005% was applied twice daily.

You shouldn't dismiss people's stories as 'anecdotal crap' out of hand. Too many people have tried Mazzarella's dosage and experienced side effects. But let's set aside for the moment that there's a convincing amount of anecdotes that don't line up with what you're claiming. Go read the Polichem studies, and explain to me how a single dose of 2.5mg topically results in a 20% reduction in serum dht, if less than 1% (1% = 0.025mg) is going systemic. Or how 7 consecutive daily doses of .2275mg results in a 25% reduction in serum dht, if less than 0.002275mg is going systemic.

Or apply 0.1% topically for a month or two and get your dht-levels tested. If you're right, there should be no effect on serum dht.

People don't understand that different molecules have different pharmacokinetics and they think that if X gets absorbed by Z amount, then Y will be the same.
Then you have different vehicles, different scalp porosities, different skin thickness and so on.

 

[Xander94]

If you had bothered to actually read the study, you would have known that 0.005% was applied twice daily.

You shouldn't dismiss people's stories as 'anecdotal crap' out of hand. Too many people have tried Mazzarella's dosage and experienced side effects. But let's set aside for the moment that there's a convincing amount of anecdotes that don't line up with what you're claiming. Go read the Polichem studies, and explain to me how a single dose of 2.5mg topically results in a 20% reduction in serum dht, if less than 1% (1% = 0.025mg) is going systemic. Or how 7 consecutive daily doses of .2275mg results in a 25% reduction in serum dht, if less than 0.002275mg is going systemic.

Or apply 0.1% topically for a month or two and get your dht-levels tested. If you're right, there should be no effect on serum dht.

20% could be a natural fluctuation, finasteride has bigger molecular weight but longer half life than minoxidil

 

[corkmeister]

20% could be a natural fluctuation, finasteride has bigger molecular weight but longer half life than minoxidil

Alright man, you said the exact same thing in the other topic and I already refuted it. They performed multiple bloodtests over the course of a day for each individual subject. And it's not like the studies had only a single participant who they reported on. If you wanna believe that Minoxidil and Finasteride are directly comparable, be my guest.

 

[Paulito9x9]

Spermiogram
Estradiol
Fsh
Lh
Shbg
Prolactin
Androstenedione.

Abs no dht, doesnt mean a thing, unless you want to check it 10 times in a week

Thanks for the advice. If I may ask, could you please explain in a bit more detail what those are? I quick google search yielded this but perhaps I'm missing something essential (btw I'm not a biochemist).

Estradiol = basically makes women look the way they do, in men in plays a critical role in male sexual function. Estradiol in men is essential for modulating libido, erectile function, and spermatogenesis.
FSH = Follicle stimulating hormone, important for spermatogenesis
LH = Luteinizing hormone, regulates testosterone among other things
SHBG = Sex hormone-binding globulin, loves binding to DHT thus inhibiting it?
Prolactin = responsible for lactation, hypersecretion can supress FSH and LH and cause impotence
Androstenedione = can be turned into testosterone?

 

[Xander94]

Alright man, you said the exact same thing in the other topic and I already refuted it. They performed multiple bloodtests over the course of a day for each individual subject. And it's not like the studies had only a single participant who they reported on. If you wanna believe that Minoxidil and Finasteride are directly comparable, be my guest.

then perhaps the accumulation theory due to longer half life could be true, whereas minoxidil gets metabolized before it goes systemic

 

[badhabiz]

Thanks for the advice. If I may ask, could you please explain in a bit more detail what those are? I quick google search yielded this but perhaps I'm missing something essential (btw I'm not a biochemist).

Estradiol = basically makes women look the way they do, in men in plays a critical role in male sexual function. Estradiol in men is essential for modulating libido, erectile function, and spermatogenesis.
FSH = Follicle stimulating hormone, important for spermatogenesis
LH = Luteinizing hormone, regulates testosterone among other things
SHBG = Sex hormone-binding globulin, loves binding to DHT thus inhibiting it?
Prolactin = responsible for lactation, hypersecretion can supress FSH and LH and cause impotence
Androstenedione = can be turned into testosterone?

The hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis controls gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GNRH), the pituitary gland produces luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), the gonads produce estrogen and testosterone. the spyke in testosterone resulting from inhibition of dht cause an increase in estrogen also. the HPG axis regulates itself down in order to balance that raise in testo/estrogen, and some people cant bear this negative (hpg axis)feedback.

 

[Canuto]

The hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis controls gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GNRH), the pituitary gland produces luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), the gonads produce estrogen and testosterone. the spyke in testosterone resulting from inhibition of dht cause an increase in estrogen also. the HPG axis regulates itself down in order to balance that raise in testo/estrogen, and some people cant bear this negative (hpg axis)feedback.

All correct, apart from the fact that testicles don't produce estradiol. Testosterone gets aromatised and 5-a reduced in tissues and the value of E2 and DHT you see in serum is the amount of leakage from all the tissues.

 

[badhabiz]

All correct, apart from the fact that testicles don't produce estradiol. Testosterone gets aromatised and 5-a reduced in tissues and the value of E2 and DHT you see in serum is the amount of leakage from all the tissues.

just to talk

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227141/

"In the male gonad, estrogens are synthesized in the Leydig cells, Sertoli cells, and mature spermatocytes (1)"

"Estradiol is also produced in a number of extragonadal organs, including the adrenal glands, brain, adipose tissue, skin, pancreas (2-4), and other sites yet to be identified. "

 

[oddmood]

Hi all,


After lots of research I have decided not to go oral Finasteride, I suffered two courses of Roaccutane when I was a teenager due to cystic acne, and I don't think I've ever fully returned to normal. I do however understand there are risks to any drug/treatment. The acne was a 9 out of 10 (derms words) so I would say my test/DHT levels were rediculous when younger, so I am a little concerned that I may be susceptable to sides. Always been very responsive to the gym, so I would like my test levels so stay where they are.

Endless hours of reading has led me to the Mazzarella 1997 study of 0.005% topical application, basically long term it had fantastic results with little to no sides. I had always accepted that one day I would be bald, so I'm willing to take the safer route with lower dose, but longer action time. If it works, great, if not then everyone has a good reference point!

I read or heard of multiple guys trying to replicate Mazzarella study and still got sides. 0.005% is 3mg of finasteride in an entire bottle of minoxidil, still this leads to accumulation with 2 times per day application.
Only concentration i've read about that can be used daily without greatly affecting dht, is 0.0016%, which is 1mg finasteride in a 60ml bottle of minoxidil. quote from user " I have used 0.00166_% x ~2 ml daily for months without change in serum DHT." source

Same user, tried to add dutasteride to this mix with a concentration of 0.0004% that's like 0.25mg per entire bottle and his serum DHT lowered with ~50-60% after months of use.This shows how much more powerful dutasteride is .