Want Ron Paul to run in 2012?

[HughJass]

The "lower taxes for more revenue" is silly. Government does not need more revenue. It needs to cut military spending, stop overseas aid, and cut entitlements. Then it can start paying back debt.

That bit is insane.

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

The "lower taxes for more revenue" is silly. Government does not need more revenue. It needs to cut military spending, stop overseas aid, and cut entitlements. Then it can start paying back debt.

That bit is insane.

Not at all. It's absurd not to cut them, it is definitely the primary reason we are in so much debt.

 

[HughJass]

so what about people who are out of work due to illness or their company downsizing/going tits up?

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

so what about people who are out of work due to illness or their company downsizing/going tits up?

What about people who don't want to get a job because they can continue to get paid for doing nothing? It isn't hard to cheat unemployment. Millions of people do it.

 

[HughJass]

so what about people who are out of work due to illness or their company downsizing/going tits up?

What about people who don't want to get a job because they can continue to get paid for doing nothing? It isn't hard to cheat unemployment. Millions of people do it.

You didn't address the question.


You just made it clear you are willing to sacrifice all of the people who are in genuine need, and do the right thing by the system, because of the people who cheat it. That's a form of collective punishment which is incompatible with civilized society.

Why not advocate for reform of the system, to prevent welfare cheats, instead of scrapping the whole thing and depriving those who make a legitimate claim to those benefits?

 

[Jacob]

The point is to deal with "all of the people who are in genuine need". It has gone way way way beyond that.

 

[HughJass]

what do you mean?

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

so what about people who are out of work due to illness or their company downsizing/going tits up?

What about people who don't want to get a job because they can continue to get paid for doing nothing? It isn't hard to cheat unemployment. Millions of people do it.

You didn't address the question.


You just made it clear you are willing to sacrifice all of the people who are in genuine need, and do the right thing by the system, because of the people who cheat it. That's a form of collective punishment which is incompatible with civilized society.

Why not advocate for reform of the system, to prevent welfare cheats, instead of scrapping the whole thing and depriving those who make a legitimate claim to those benefits?

It's not about addressing your question because you're introducing a straw man argument in a passive-aggressive manner.

The burden of proof to keep these idiotic systems in place is on you, not on me. Not only do you have to provide a justification for taking my tax dollars and giving it to others, but you have to show how these programs can be on the whole beneficial to society as a whole instead of a net-drain that is going to bring the entire economy down.

You can't show that it's possible. People have tried for twenty years and failed.

 

[HughJass]

It's not about addressing your question because you're introducing a straw man argument in a passive-aggressive manner.

Is it not true you said you wanted to cue entitlements? Seeing as that would affect everybody recieving them, including legitimate recipients then it's a valid question to ask whether or not you have no problem denying them the only source of money they have to live some kind of dignified life.

passive-aggressive? Sorry you took it that way. I didn't realize you'd feel so easily threatened.

The burden of proof to keep these idiotic systems in place is on you, not on me. Not only do you have to provide a justification for taking my tax dollars and giving it to others, but you have to show how these programs can be on the whole beneficial to society as a whole instead of a net-drain that is going to bring the entire economy down.

You can't show that it's possible. People have tried for twenty years and failed.

This is what makes me scratch my head about 'conservative values' : if the average conservative doesn't know of a single unemployed, sick or disabled person who has been prevented from starving or becoming homeless due to state assistance, that means they mustn't exist! It really speaks to the myopia of many people on the right.

If you want evidence I suggest you speak to some people outside of your own circle- the disabled, the chronically ill, people from broken homes, the long term unemployed. Basically those who have had to rely on these services in order to survive. Obviously if you surround yourself with only people who share the same beliefs as you do then you aren't going to 'see' any evidence. But I guess you have to be prepared to challenge your beliefs first.

The idea that cutting off welfare will be a boost for the economy is a pretty kindergarten view of the world. It's silly to think there are no economic repercussions for a society to let millions of disadvantaged citizens fall through the cracks.

 

[Jacob]

This is what makes me scratch my head about 'conservative values' : if the average conservative doesn't know of a single unemployed, sick or disabled person who has been prevented from starving or becoming homeless due to state assistance, that means they mustn't exist! It really speaks to the myopia of many people on the right.

I know of plenty that do truly need it, so that's why it pisses me off even more to see those who don't really need it, getting it.

BTW..time and time again it's shown that those with "conservative values" give way more to charity than the so caring libs. THAT "really speaks to the myopia of many people on the" left.

 

[The Gardener]

Why should I have to pay for someone else's housing? Or someone else's kids' living expenses? Or someone else's health care?

I work hard and have made good decisions in my life so that I can afford my own. Why should I, in addition to having to be responsible for my own existence, ALSO have to be responsible for someone else's?

Now, don't get me wrong, I know that there are economic factors and times that cause well meaning people to lose their source of income, and I have NO PROBLEM chipping into a pool to help them out, help them get back on their feet, and help them find a new productive pursuit for a TEMPORARY BASIS... but... in this country there's an entire underclass of people who make their entire living by living off subsidies.

I pay about one third of my entire income to Federal and State taxes and witholdings. Additionally, AFTER I get my "post tax" paycheck, I pay additional taxes when I pay my rent, which goes to cover property tax. I walk out the door, and start my car... and pay more taxes in license and registration fees. I fill up the car with gas, and pay more tax. I get a cup of coffee, and in Los Angeles I pay almost freaking 10% as a sales tax on everything I buy, excluding groceries. I pick up my phone, and get taxed. Turn on the television, there's another tax. Park my car downtown at the lot... and get taxed. And, let's not forget the inflation tax. When I was a kid you could get a candy bar for 5c. Now it costs 50c. What causes that? The Feds inflating the money supply by borrowing more money into existence so they can spend it on stuff... resulting in the devaluation of my savings and income in order to accomplish this. It's become almost impossible for normal people to save money and build up some personal capital, and they're now getting completely out of control with it!

Tax tax tax tax tax... I'm sick of it.

It's no wonder to me why business are packing up and fleeing to Asia. The "US economy" and the government responsible for managing it have become a world wide punch line.

As for Ron Paul... I like him, but its all deck chairs on the Titanic stuff at this point. We're in Fall of Rome 2.0 territory now.

 

[Bryan]

I know of plenty that do truly need it, so that's why it pisses me off even more to see those who don't really need it, getting it.

Just how good are you at accurately being able to tell when somebody gets it who doesn't really need it?

BTW..time and time again it's shown that those with "conservative values" give way more to charity than the so caring libs.

If that's really true, I strongly suspect that it has a lot to do with guilty consciences on the part of the conservatives. They feel really bad (as they should) that they're raking in tons of money, at the same time that a lot of really poor people are struggling to have something to eat. They try to make up for it (to some degree) by contributing to charity.

 

[Bryan]

Why should I have to pay for someone else's housing? Or someone else's kids' living expenses? Or someone else's health care?

Oh, for the same reason that you contribute to the building and maintenance of public roads, national defense, space exploration, and other similar things. I think it's high time that we had national health care. Better get used to it.

 

[Nene]

Why should I have to pay for someone else's housing? Or someone else's kids' living expenses? Or someone else's health care?

I work hard and have made good decisions in my life so that I can afford my own. Why should I, in addition to having to be responsible for my own existence, ALSO have to be responsible for someone else's?

Now, don't get me wrong, I know that there are economic factors and times that cause well meaning people to lose their source of income, and I have NO PROBLEM chipping into a pool to help them out, help them get back on their feet, and help them find a new productive pursuit for a TEMPORARY BASIS... but... in this country there's an entire underclass of people who make their entire living by living off subsidies.

I pay about one third of my entire income to Federal and State taxes and witholdings. Additionally, AFTER I get my "post tax" paycheck, I pay additional taxes when I pay my rent, which goes to cover property tax. I walk out the door, and start my car... and pay more taxes in license and registration fees. I fill up the car with gas, and pay more tax. I get a cup of coffee, and in Los Angeles I pay almost freaking 10% as a sales tax on everything I buy, excluding groceries. I pick up my phone, and get taxed. Turn on the television, there's another tax. Park my car downtown at the lot... and get taxed. And, let's not forget the inflation tax. When I was a kid you could get a candy bar for 5c. Now it costs 50c. What causes that? The Feds inflating the money supply by borrowing more money into existence so they can spend it on stuff... resulting in the devaluation of my savings and income in order to accomplish this. It's become almost impossible for normal people to save money and build up some personal capital, and they're now getting completely out of control with it!

Tax tax tax tax tax... I'm sick of it.

It's no wonder to me why business are packing up and fleeing to Asia. The "US economy" and the government responsible for managing it have become a world wide punch line.

As for Ron Paul... I like him, but its all deck chairs on the Titanic stuff at this point. We're in Fall of Rome 2.0 territory now.

You can move to Somalia, you won't have to pay a dime in tax there.

 

[Jacob]

I know of plenty that do truly need it, so that's why it pisses me off even more to see those who don't really need it, getting it.

Just how good are you at accurately being able to tell when somebody gets it who doesn't really need it?

How good are you at accurately being able to tell when somebody gets it, they really need it? But I'll answer it..I've seen it firsthand. I known the same ppl for years in various apartment complexes. I've seen the vehicles they drive. I've seen the gadgets and toys they run around with. I've heard them talk. I've heard what their family members and friends have to say. And this isn't just about the women/girls with multiple kids and/or immigrants- illegal or not. I also know of a woman who works in such a dept, dealing with these folks.

I suppose I could also did up story after story online if you'd like.

If that's really true, I strongly suspect that it has a lot to do with guilty consciences on the part of the conservatives. They feel really bad (as they should) that they're raking in tons of money, at the same time that a lot of really poor people are struggling to have something to eat. They try to make up for it (to some degree) by contributing to charity.

LOL!!! Then I guess liberals have no conscience...using your logic. THEY should be putting their money where their mouths are. But we're the ones that actually do care the most.

Give me a break on "raking in tons of money". Look at Hollywood. Look at the liberal elites like Sen Kerry, who do all they can to avoid paying taxes.

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

Why should I have to pay for someone else's housing? Or someone else's kids' living expenses? Or someone else's health care?

Oh, for the same reason that you contribute to the building and maintenance of public roads, national defense, space exploration, and other similar things. I think it's high time that we had national health care. Better get used to it.

None of what you mentioned is necessary by government.

People in this thread are severely under-read in history, economics, and science.

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

Most of you should work in a tax business one season (January-April). You'll change your opinions real quick about how many people use the system. It's more than you can imagine.

 

[Bryan]

LOL!!! Then I guess liberals have no conscience...using your logic.

Go back and re-read what I said. Liberals have no guilty conscience.

Give me a break on "raking in tons of money". Look at Hollywood. Look at the liberal elites like Sen Kerry, who do all they can to avoid paying taxes.

Everybody does his best to avoid paying taxes if at all possible (and legal), liberals and conservatives alike.

 

[Bryan]

Oh, for the same reason that you contribute to the building and maintenance of public roads, national defense, space exploration, and other similar things. I think it's high time that we had national health care. Better get used to it.

None of what you mentioned is necessary by government.

People in this thread are severely under-read in history, economics, and science.

The government isn't necessary to build and maintain roads, provide national defense, do space exploration, or provide national health care? Is that some kind of weird joke? :dunno:

 

[The Gardener]

Why should I have to pay for someone else's housing? Or someone else's kids' living expenses? Or someone else's health care?

Oh, for the same reason that you contribute to the building and maintenance of public roads, national defense, space exploration, and other similar things. I think it's high time that we had national health care. Better get used to it.

I don't have a problem with maintenance of public roads, national defense, or space exploration.

I have a problem with trillions in bailouts to banks, trillions to finance a multinational global military empire, and trillions in subsidies that lobbyists garner for big oil, big agriculture, etc. And trillions that will be spent to provide for OTHER people's health care over and above that which I pay for my OWN health care. And, big Healthcare is just as greedy on K Street as any of the other lobbying interests are.

But, hey, I guess we can just keep on raising taxes... and see more and more industry continue to flee the United States like it has been over the past decades.

You can move to Somalia, you won't have to pay a dime in tax there.

Well, and I could counter that YOU can move to North Korea or Cuba, where the government runs EVERYTHING. Oh, and how'd that little Soviet Union project turn out?

I don't think using such radical examples as debate fodder add much to the discussion.