What is finasteride really doing to our bodies?

[capm56]

Not all sides are documented

There are plenty of examples of drugs that had long term effects that were not noticed or ignored in clinical trials. There are potential links between finasteride and depression for those who are at risk. I personally have been getting foggy with propecia and I am looking to lower my dose. I was was doing well hairwise after years on 1 pill a day. I was then on 1 pill EOD with rogaine for about 11 months. Still doing very well. When I dropped lower however (1/4 - 1/3/day) I have had massive shedding and don't know what to do. I thinned recently and it seems like it happened very, very suddently. I am looking for a way to continue without taking 1 pill a day......any ideas?

No one should belittle anyone who reports sides. That having been said however, the safety profile of this drug, according to what we know and most derms I speak to is decent. As far as ED goes, it is a very delicate process. Just thinking it could happen could cause it. When it was compared to placebo, the percentages were very similar, albeit slightly higher for finasteride.

Good luck,
capm

 

[Pondle]

Re: Not all sides are documented

There are plenty of examples of drugs that had long term effects that were not noticed or ignored in clinical trials. There are potential links between finasteride and depression for those who are at risk. I personally have been getting foggy with propecia and I am looking to lower my dose.

One of the first things you learn in statistics is not to confuse correlation with causation. Of course guys on finasteride are more likely to be depressed; they are going bald, worried about it enough to seek treatment, and have a 1 in 6 chance of being a non-responder.

No one should belittle anyone who reports sides. That having been said however, the safety profile of this drug, according to what we know and most derms I speak to is decent.

Exactly. And we have a natural biological model for it - men with 5AR deficiency.

As far as ED goes, it is a very delicate process. Just thinking it could happen could cause it. When it was compared to placebo, the percentages were very similar, albeit slightly higher for finasteride.

I think pressure, stress, confidence, energy and mutual attraction can all play a big role in ED.

 

[abcdefg]

I think we use propecia because no one has told me of anything thats better that is also proven. Of course propecia has problems and sides its a fricking drug not a flintstone vitamin. Its pretty simple take it and try to keep your hair or dont and see what nature does to you. I mean its not an easy choice but you dont have 100 different viable treatments to choose from yet there is endless debate on this. After enough debate you realize it just comes down to gut instinct and your personality. How comfortable is someone with taking risks?

Oh yeah we know what finasteride directly does to us. It lowers DHT by inhibiting 5ar 2 and anything that is effected by that which we dont completely understand.

 

[powersam]

You guys are so lucky not to be Women!
If you worry so much about a tiny dosage of finasteride, what would you do if you were on something like "the pill" or hormone replacement?! :shock:

Maybe you'd worry too if you couldn't keep an erection at age 29 when you're trying to have sex with a new girl that you really like - I've been off finasteride two weeks and the difference is like night and day. Furthermore, I don't appreciate your useless, insensitive, condescending post. :evil:

i think often guys are finding themselves less sexually able, blaming it on finasteride even though its just due to their shite food no exercise lifestyle and quitting finasteride. then for two weeks while their hormones rebalance they'll get a temporary surge in libido and think that all their problems were caused by finasteride. however not too long after that they are going to slump back to their same mediocre level of sexual prowess, albeit this time with no hair.

 

[dolomick]

You guys are so lucky not to be Women!
If you worry so much about a tiny dosage of finasteride, what would you do if you were on something like "the pill" or hormone replacement?! :shock:

Maybe you'd worry too if you couldn't keep an erection at age 29 when you're trying to have sex with a new girl that you really like - I've been off finasteride two weeks and the difference is like night and day. Furthermore, I don't appreciate your useless, insensitive, condescending post. :evil:

i think often guys are finding themselves less sexually able, blaming it on finasteride even though its just due to their shite food no exercise lifestyle and quitting finasteride. then for two weeks while their hormones rebalance they'll get a temporary surge in libido and think that all their problems were caused by finasteride. however not too long after that they are going to slump back to their same mediocre level of sexual prowess, albeit this time with no hair.

Well that's an interesting and condescending theory, but in my case you could not be further from the truth. I surf and workout 3-4 times a week, eat well, don't smoke, just had a physical and my cholesterol and blood pressure is extremely healthy. This is just another in a long line of posts on this board trying to make light of the issue of propecia sides. Why do so many around here seem to have such an agenda against people discussing the legitimate topic of propecia sides? I have no doubt there are hypochondriacs around here too, but why are more people not given the benefit of the doubt? Could it be that people like you are trying to convince yourself that everyone who has sides is a hyponchondriac, because deep down you don't want to believe it could actually happen to you? Or are you just arrogant? And how do you know so much about the lifestyles and sexual prowess of the men about which you speak? :wink: Oh, that's right ... you don't; you're just wildly speculating and talking out your arse.

 

[Paul December]

You guys are so lucky not to be Women!
If you worry so much about a tiny dosage of finasteride, what would you do if you were on something like "the pill" or hormone replacement?! :shock:

Maybe you'd worry too if you couldn't keep an erection at age 29 when you're trying to have sex with a new girl that you really like - I've been off finasteride two weeks and the difference is like night and day. Furthermore, I don't appreciate your useless, insensitive, condescending post. :evil:

i think often guys are finding themselves less sexually able, blaming it on finasteride even though its just due to their shite food no exercise lifestyle and quitting finasteride. then for two weeks while their hormones rebalance they'll get a temporary surge in libido and think that all their problems were caused by finasteride. however not too long after that they are going to slump back to their same mediocre level of sexual prowess, albeit this time with no hair.

Well that's an interesting and condescending theory, but in my case you could not be further from the truth. I surf and workout 3-4 times a week, eat well, don't smoke, just had a physical and my cholesterol and blood pressure is extremely healthy. This is just another in a long line of posts on this board trying to make light of the issue of propecia sides. Why do so many around here seem to have such an agenda against people discussing the legitimate topic of propecia sides? I have no doubt there are hypochondriacs around here too, but why are more people not given the benefit of the doubt? Could it be that people like you are trying to convince yourself that everyone who has sides is a hyponchondriac, because deep down you don't want to believe it could actually happen to you? Or are you just arrogant? And how do you know so much about the lifestyles and sexual prowess of the men about which you speak? :wink: Oh, that's right ... you don't; you're just wildly speculating and talking out your arse.

You call every one you disagree with as "condescending & arrogant"....Looks like you are doing everything you accuse others of.
You have your opinion...allow others to have theirs.

 

[powersam]

You guys are so lucky not to be Women!
If you worry so much about a tiny dosage of finasteride, what would you do if you were on something like "the pill" or hormone replacement?! :shock:

Maybe you'd worry too if you couldn't keep an erection at age 29 when you're trying to have sex with a new girl that you really like - I've been off finasteride two weeks and the difference is like night and day. Furthermore, I don't appreciate your useless, insensitive, condescending post. :evil:

i think often guys are finding themselves less sexually able, blaming it on finasteride even though its just due to their shite food no exercise lifestyle and quitting finasteride. then for two weeks while their hormones rebalance they'll get a temporary surge in libido and think that all their problems were caused by finasteride. however not too long after that they are going to slump back to their same mediocre level of sexual prowess, albeit this time with no hair.

Well that's an interesting and condescending theory, but in my case you could not be further from the truth. I surf and workout 3-4 times a week, eat well, don't smoke, just had a physical and my cholesterol and blood pressure is extremely healthy. This is just another in a long line of posts on this board trying to make light of the issue of propecia sides. Why do so many around here seem to have such an agenda against people discussing the legitimate topic of propecia sides? I have no doubt there are hypochondriacs around here too, but why are more people not given the benefit of the doubt? Could it be that people like you are trying to convince yourself that everyone who has sides is a hyponchondriac, because deep down you don't want to believe it could actually happen to you? Or are you just arrogant? And how do you know so much about the lifestyles and sexual prowess of the men about which you speak? :wink: Oh, that's right ... you don't; you're just wildly speculating and talking out your arse.

we'll just see how your doing a few months from now hey. quite an angry young man arent you... its funny how a post accusing me of wild speculation, arrogance and condescension managed to contain all of those things in liberal doses.

 

[Jojje]

I think it's naive to believe that you can just pop this pill along with whatever else you take daily, go on with your regular life, and not expect some changes.

What's this pill REALLY doing to our bodies? And, is it significant enough that some users may benefit from not using this pill.

Tell ya one thing, I can definitely FEEL it "working" or feel some sort of effects, whether its a "blur" mental fog feeling, or other things.

Is this all safe? Even the side-effects?

I can't see how anything that produces noticeable effects that are on the negative side such as this mental fog, or sexual side effects, or even something that plays with your testosterone/estrogen levels can be a safe drug.

Are the testosterone/DHT/estrogen fluctuations so minor that they should completely be overlooked, or does all of this pose some sort of a risk?

Don't want to freak out, but just wondering because I "feel" the effects of the pill.

And I've ruled out mental, or that it's all in my head, because I've been off and on this drug since 2001. I can't seem to take it too steadily because of it's strange side-effects.

I'm not allergic to it, I don't even know if such a thing exists. Maybe I'm a sensitive reactor or whatever.


But if you guys can rule out anything serious, (even though you're not doctors), I guess I'll just keep popping on my merry way.

hehe ever looked on the side effects of regular painkillers... maibe some sides will come from that as well now

 

[Matgallis]

Frontal, benign prostatic hyperplasia and male pattern baldness both have the same root cause - DHT. It causes the prostate to grow and scalp hair follicles to progressively miniaturise.

By reducing the level of DHT, the prostate can be induced to shrink and scalp hair induced to grow.

As for long term effects, don't be worried. finasteride has proven to reduce the risk of prostate cancer. Men with natural 5AR deficiency can live just fine.

From my understanding, DHT is produced IN the prostate and then circulated throughout the body. When the prostate becomes enlarged (enlargers for multiple reasons) more DHT is produced (might be DHT enlarges the prostate as well). There is an enzyme in the prostate that converts Testosterone into DHT. finasteride reduces the amount of this enzyme in the prostate, therefor shrinking the prostate and reducing the amount of DHT throughout the body. I could be wrong, but this is what I found.

Never the less, DHT is a very important function in the male function.

 

[Bryan]

From my understanding, DHT is produced IN the prostate and then circulated throughout the body.

DHT is produced in a great many tissues in the body, not just the prostate. Circulating DHT doesn't appear to have much of a role in anything.

 

[Aplunk1]

Circulating DHT doesn't appear to have much of a role in anything.

I don't understand how that could be so. Bryan, does DHT have any effect on behavior, such as aggression?

 

[Bryan]

Circulating DHT doesn't appear to have much of a role in anything.

I don't understand how that could be so.

It's eliminated fairly fast from the bloodstream, so I don't think it has much of a chance to have a very significant role as an endocrine hormone.

Bryan, does DHT have any effect on behavior, such as aggression?

Not sure about that.

 

[fightDHT]

So I had a question on this? From all i hav heard so far, it seems testosterone is not the real direct actor that does anything in our bodies...but its actually DHT....its DHT that kills the hair follicle..its DHT that gives erections...i even heard its DHT that gives male characteristics like deep voice, facial hair etc..

If this is true, isn't it imperative that inhibiting 5AR and hence reducing DHT levels in a male body is bound to have a kind of anti-male effect on the body?...I dont think that ppl who say they hav sides with DHT are just paranoid or are impotent anyways and just blame it on finasteride....IMO finasteride definitely affects some male factor...just that an individual body's reaction to that will determine hw well that person would cope with it...Also does it mean that if I am not getting significant sides, that means my body is making up for the low DHT somehow and hence the finasteride wont work effectively for my hair??...Is there nothing in medical science that could affect gene factors??....all this is sooo unanswered and unknown rite now....God when will science advance??...makes me wonder when more doctors will enter into research work instead of so many of them just setting up a clinic and filling up their bloody bank accounts....

 

[Mew]

Of course DHT and 5AR have a role... many in fact. Inhibiting them may lead to problems, as many on Finasteride have found out, when they changed their hormonal profile to match that of a 5AR2-deficient pseudohermaphrodite, in addition to inhibiting various neurosteroid conversions in the brain, chemically castrating and involuting their prostate, and depleting their penile tissus of vital androgen -- just for starters.

And hey, guess what -- guys who undergo radical prostatectomy (removal of prostate) often end up impotent afterwards. Since Finasteride is documented to destroy the prostate via apoptosis (cell death)... guess it's just a "coincidence" that you experience erectile difficulties while on the drug, eh?

The research is out there on Finasteride, you just have to dig through it. Attached is a small starting point.

Image from
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ODBLQc2 ... #PPA162,M1

More details on 5AR, DHT and 5AR inhibitors like Finasteride:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=IYn4Va7 ... o#PPA59,M1

A new look at Finasteride:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16834758

 

[fightDHT]

hey Mew...thanks for all the info...although i wont say my non-doctor brain got all of it....but it seems like all those reports identify what happens if a male body suffers from 5AR deficiency right from birth....but we finasteride patients have had normal 5 AR levels till puberty and till that time our bodies have developed completely...and then we start killing most of the dht in our bodies with finasteride...so what happens now...do we still run the risk of turning into hermaphrodites...
the studies are done on rats and dogs....but what is the degree to which it applies to humans?...and if we do reach some definite number for humans, will it apply the same for all humans...?? why does finasteride work to stop male pattern baldness for some humans whereas for others it has no effect? Isn't the human body the same kind of machine for all ppl ...so that if one treatment does something for my body, it should do the same for your body? Could male pattern baldness have causes other than DHT? Is there a way to fix gene related problems...ie instead of stopping killing DHT that kills my susceptible hair, could we find something to decrease the susceptibility of my hair to giving in to DHT?

I am sorry for all these (likely stupid) questions, but it seems to me that medical science today is very vague in many fields...fair enough...because the scope of study is enormous...i am from the technical field and here its more like everything is the logical result of something and every solution can be guaranteed to work or not work...i just cant bear that medicine has not reached that level yet....and all treatments are like ..."try this out and see if it works" :shakehead: ...

 

[Mew]

and then we start killing most of the dht in our bodies with finasteride...so what happens now...do we still run the risk of turning into hermaphrodites

Not exactly -- with finasteride you are changing your hormonal profile to match that of a pseudohermaphrodite, after puberty. Others like Pondle may argue that this is perfectly acceptable since we have a biological example -- those pseudo's with 5AR2 defiency -- that seem to "live" perfectly normal lives despite the absence of 5AR-II -- but what about for the rest of us who don't have mutated 5AR-II enzymes? With finasteride we are instilling a surrogate state of 5AR2 deficiency in otherwise healthy, normal human beings that were never meant to operate as such from birth... a situation from which the consequences can lead to numerous problems/side effects it seems, both while on and after quitting the drug, for some.

why does finasteride work to stop male pattern baldness for some humans whereas for others it has no effect?

Likely due to genetics of each person, some are more prone to the effects of finasteride while others are not. There are studies that corroborate this, ie


Effectiveness of Finasteride on Patients with Male Pattern Baldness Who Have Different Androgen Receptor Gene Polymorphism
http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v10 ... 0229a.html

"Most male pattern baldness (male pattern baldness) patients have an androgen-dependent trait, although it is thought to be under the control of multiple genes, such as genes for androgen receptor (AR), insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1), and dihydrotestosterone regulations (Nyholt et al, 2003;Tang et al, 2003).

One of the 5 -reductase inhibitors, finasteride, is effective on male pattern baldness, although there is a variation in the efficacy of this drug among the male pattern baldness patients. From the functional mechanism of this drug, it is thought to be effective on the male pattern baldness caused by hyperfunction of AR.

Association of higher incidence rate of male pattern baldness with lower triplet repeat number in the first exon of AR gene has been demonstrated by some authors (Sawaya and Shalita, 1998;Ellis et al, 2001). Tracing their study, we have found that there is a correlation between the symptom levels of male pattern baldness and the CAG and GGC repeat numbers in AR gene.1 To investigate the relationship between the effectiveness of finasteride and the AR gene polymorphism, we determined the number of triplet repeats in AR gene of patients.

Effectiveness of finasteride on each patient was expressed as the improvement point of symptom derived from the modified Hamilton–Norwood typing. The number of the triplet repeats (CAG+GGC) was plotted against the symptom points.

There was a broad correlation between these variables Figure 1. The smaller the repeat number, the higher the improvement with finasteride. Patients were divided into two groups: the group comprised of patients whose number of repeats was 40 or less, and the group of more than 40. Larger number of patients in the former group (40) obtained higher improvement points, compared with that in the latter (>40) (data not shown). [

Finasteride was more effective on patients in the short repeat group (40); even they had severe initial symptoms (V–VII). The relation between the improvement points and total dose of fnasteride was analyzed.

In the shorter repeat group (40), their mean improvement point was 0.96 to 1.1 even by a smaller total dose, 30–100 mg, while 200 mg or more was necessary to achieve the same improvement in the long repeat group (>40). Finasteride was less effective on patients in the long repeat group (>40) especially on patients younger than 30 y.

As mentioned above, we have found that the shorter the CAG and GGC repeat numbers, the higher the symptom level before treatment with finasteride. Although, the mean initial symptom of patients in the short repeat group was worse, finasteride was more effective in the improvement of male pattern baldness in most patients with shorter triplet regions of AR gene. These cases may be caused by hyperfunction of AR. On the other hand, this drug was less effective in certain cases with longer triplet repeats. They are thought to result from a non-androgenic mechanism. This kind of analysis may aid in the choice of drug for male pattern baldness patients.


Graph showing effect of finasteride on patients with different triplet repeat numbers in androgen receptor (AR) gene: http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v10 ... gure-title

 

[abcdefg]

No one knows what it does. We know where its found and some other basic info on it but more or less we are pretty lost about the whole role of hormones and what they all specifically do and how they interact exactly.

 

[abcdefg]

Bryan if you could take 1 treatment as of today to help keep as much hair as you could if you were in the beginning stages of male pattern baldness what would you do? Waiting for a better treatment might be an acceptable option something like ascj-9 sounds like a much smarter way if such a thing is possible.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan if you could take 1 treatment as of today to help keep as much hair as you could if you were in the beginning stages of male pattern baldness what would you do?

Oh GOD....what a way to put me on the spot! :shock: :freaked:

Would price and side effects be considerations in that decision?

 

[abcdefg]

Yes sides and price would be considerations since really everyone must factor those into any decision. Im just curious what you think is the best treatment as of now. Is it worth waiting for something with less sides maybe an ascj 9 type of thing?