Why Is This Study Ignored In The Hair Loss Community?

[Timii]

The body has evolved responses to damage yes. But they're by no means perfect, just enough for the species to survive in its situation. If there's fibrosis and calcification, it's due to the relevant pathways being triggered somehow and nothing more.

Why would the body not be alerted about a genetic predisposition? That's a ridiculous line of thought. If someone has cystic fibrosis - which is 100% genetically determined by a single gene - by your logic the body wouldn't cough up the extra mucous that's produced.

Cystic fibroris just like cancer is a genetic mutation that almost never occurred to prehistoric men. It's not beneficial to the body and that's why inflammation is triggered. The same applies to baldness, baldness was probably a genetic mutation that has spread so much because it wasn't damaging enough to the body to be excluded by natural selection. But the body has still to be alerted about hairs being damaged, that's why inflammation is triggered.

 

[Throwaway94]

Cystic fibroris just like cancer is a genetic mutation that almost never occurred to prehistoric men. It's not beneficial to the body and that's why inflammation is triggered. The same applies to baldness, baldness was probably a genetic mutation that has spread so much because it wasn't damaging enough to the body to be excluded by natural selection. But the body has still to be alerted about hairs being damaged, that's why inflammation is triggered.

Literally every change that has happened to any gene ever is the result of mutation. Beneficial or not.

But yes you clearly understand that your body reacts to genetically determined processes, so I don't understand why you would say that inflammation wouldn't be triggered if hair loss is 100% genetically determined.

 

[Timii]

Again, incidence increases with age because it's progressive. You're asking two separate questions.

What you're asking about the age where some people start to notice it and the aggressiveness are genetically determined by hundreds of genes and we'll never have a clear picture of how they all work together. People with baldness don't have any more or less DHT than people who don't.

I disagree. Hair loss does not happen at a linear rate. Majority of men start balding in their 30s or 40s and then become bald in a couple of decades. This means that since entering puberty at say 13 years of age their hair was intact for more than 20 years and then suddenly lose all of their hair and this despite having lower DHT than when they were younger. If you really think that balding is an ongoing process that starts in puberty you would have to explain the sudden acceleration of hair loss once these men enter their 30s.

 

[Throwaway94]

I disagree. Hair loss does not happen at a linear rate. Majority of men start balding in their 30s or 40s and then become bald in a couple of decades. This means that since entering puberty at say 13 years of age their hair was intact for more than 20 years and then suddenly lose all of their hair and this despite having lower DHT than when they were younger. If you really think that balding is an ongoing process that starts in puberty you would have to explain the sudden acceleration of hair loss once these men enter their 30s.

I said it was progressive, no one is saying it's linear, please stop putting words in my mouth. As I said before, the fact that some may not have significant hair loss until their 30s or 40s or even 50s is determined by hundreds of genes working together. It can accelerate and slow down however it's written in the genes with some influence by environmental factors.

 

[Timii]

I said it was progressive, no one is saying it's linear, please stop putting words in my mouth. As I said before, the fact that some may not have significant hair loss until their 30s or 40s or even 50s is determined by hundreds of genes working together. It can accelerate and slow down however it's written in the genes with some influence by environmental factors.

That's what I wanted to say all along. DHT is not the primary cause, it's something else. DHT is just the 'weapon' that is used to trigger ministurization. If the primary cause is only genetic with some environmental factors mixed in like you claim , that I won't discuss because I'm tired of discussing and I don't have proof for my claims. But I hope people reading come to the realization that enviromental factors do play a role and it's not only 'genetix bro'.

 

[Throwaway94]

That's what I wanted to say all along. DHT is not the primary cause, it's something else. DHT is just the 'weapon' that is used to trigger ministurization. If the primary cause is only genetic with some environmental factors mixed in like you claim , that I won't discuss because I'm tired of discussing and I don't have proof for my claims. But I hope people reading come to the realization that enviromental factors do play a role and it's not only 'genetix bro'.

There's a very good reason twins have the same hair loss pattern. And that's "genetix bro". Androgens are the trigger but how each person responds to exposure is determined genetically.

 

[Ollie]

I mean why is the incidence of baldness higher the older you are? Something all of the sudden decides that at 40 years of age the time has come for DHT to destroy the follicles. Why not earlier when there was even higher DHT?

When you hit 40 you have a huge decline in progesterone and thus hydroxy-progesterone. Both of these play a role in Androgenetic Alopecia - still an unknown one however.

Just look at Bayers prolactin antigen antibody drug they are soon trialing - it regrew 115% hair in macaque monkeys with Androgenetic Alopecia . There is obviously a huge relationship with different hormones that all play a role in one way or another.

Bottom line being that researchers know what a ridiculous maze it is and it’s completely uneconomical to chase it. Trying to ‘cure’ it by relocating the hair on the back and sides is a much more sure thing.

 

[whatevr]

You can't really believe in the 'follicles are just genetically sensible to dht bro' theory after reading something like this. If it was true everybody would have a thick head of hair while on dutasteride, instead plenty of people continue losing hair.

I like to use the burning house analogy against this argument. Androgens are the fire burning your house down - if you remove them, you're at best preventing further damage and you might save a part of your house. But the parts that are already burnt down are not magically coming back just by removing the fire. You need to rebuild / repair it.

So you know, the whole "See, I stopped the fire but my kitchen and living room are still burned to a crisp. Clearly the fire wasn't the problem!" is kind of a dumb argument.

 

[HairCook]

So I posted studies about sodium thiosulfate, one with xrays showing it being potent against caclification. Why do ppl still talk instead of doing smth?

 

[Timii]

So I posted studies about sodium thiosulfate, one with xrays showing it being potent against caclification. Why do ppl still talk instead of doing smth?

Legit, I should try it

 

[HairOnFire]

Keep in mind that decades ago there was a procedure called 'scalp artery ligature' that was shown to be effective for treating pattern baldness. That procedure - which was messy and bloody - involved tying off the arteries that feed the scalp with blood, so that hair follicles had a reduced blood flow. It was proposed that the reduced blood flow produced local hypoxia. Hypoxia, in turn, is a well-known enzyme inhibitor, and it was theorized that the hypoxia inhibited 5-alpha-reductase (that is, the conversion of T to DHT).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2536995/?page=1

 

[Photon]

When is this damn curse going to end...?

 

[whatevr]

When is this damn curse going to end...?

When you're DEAD.

 

[NewUser]

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/25651

You can't really believe in the 'follicles are just genetically sensible to dht bro' theory after reading something like this

It's faulty hair follicles that causes baldness.

And hypertension and prostate cancer.

Beards and pubic hair.

And PCOS.

And a 36% greater risk for heart disease says Harvard Medical School.

Bad follicles.

Iow's, medical science is still feeling its way through the dark wrt human biology. We know far more about financial engineering and how to drain stock markets of money using math and computers and crashing the economy. We're really good at these things, bro'.

 

[Poppyburner]

It might be a result but how is DHT then supposed to calcify the skull? Why would the body cut off a valid supply route for the follicles?

'Our in vitro investigations revealed that exogenous testosterone and DHT treatment both had striking effects on the induction of VSMC [vascular smooth muscle cells] calcification.'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4837411/

'Here, we show that oestrogen inhibits the osteoblastic [bone material-forming] differentiation of vascular smooth muscle cells (VSMCs) in vitro and arterial calcification in vivo by promoting autophagy.'

Oestrogen Inhibits Arterial Calcification by Promoting Autophagy - Scientific Reports

Arterial calcification is a major complication of cardiovascular disease. Oestrogen replacement therapy in postmenopausal women is associated with lower levels of coronary artery calcification, but its mechanism of action remains unclear. Here, we show that oestrogen inhibits the osteoblastic...

www.nature.com

From the original poster Timli's link:

'This, then, not only explains why baldness occurs but also why men are more likely to become bald than women, since bone growth or calcification is generally greater in males than in females.'

'Sodium thiosulfate [which is very cheap and water soluble] has been used extensively and safely to treat calcific uremic arteriopathy (a disease, in part due to calcification of small arteries) in dialysis patients. It increases the solubility of calcium by up to 100,000 fold and is also a potent anti-oxidant.'

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

_____________________________________________________________________________

[Added 19th of January, 2021:]

[2013:]

'Sodium Thiosulfate: Mythical Treatment for a Mysterious Disease?
[...]
Despite a widely held assumption to the contrary, thiosulfate does not chelate calcium ions and neither inhibits hydroxyapatite [which makes up most of the human bone structure and builds tooth enamel] formation nor dissolves vascular calcifications in vitro [outside a living organism] (13). Hydroxyapatite formation and vascular calcification are pH dependent within the pathophysiologic range, with alkalosis favoring calcification (14), and acidosis reduces arterial calcification in uremic animals (15). However, thiosulfate is not an acid and it does not alter pH when added to blood ex vivo (12) and the inhibition of calcification in cultured vessels occurred without a change in the pH of the culture medium (13). The expansion acidosis that STS does produce in vivo is too mild to have much of an effect on calcification (12). [...] Despite an absence of efficacy data in humans, an uncertain mechanism, and unknown safety, STS continues to be used to treat CUA [calcific uremic arteriolopathy]. [...]
The beneficial effects of sodium thiosulfate (STS) are thought to be due in part to its ability to enhance the solubility of calcium deposits. STS has a small molecular weight of 248 (Na2S2O3) and in patients with normal renal [kidney] function has a serum half-life of 15 min. STS facilitates the mobilization of calcium from vessels affected by calcium deposits.'

Sodium Thiosulfate: Mythical Treatment for a Mysterious... : Clinical Journal of the American Society of Nephrology

An abstract is unavailable.

cjasn.asnjournals.org

 

[Poppyburner]

You can't really believe in the 'follicles are just genetically sensible to dht bro' theory after reading something like this. If it was true everybody would have a thick head of hair while on dutasteride, instead plenty of people continue losing hair. The question is what causes this calcification of the skull to occur. What is the exact mechanism behind balding?

1996:

'There is a relative microvascular insufficiency to regions of the scalp that lose hair in male pattern baldness. We have identified a previously unreported tissue hypoxia [lack of oxygen] in bald scalp compared with hair-bearing scalp.'

https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/1996/05000/TranscutaneousPo2of_the_Scalp_in_Male_Pattern.3.aspx

 

[Will Be an Egg in 5 years]

Because it is way more likely that baldness leads to calcification instead of the other way around. Also, it a study from the bloody 40's.

Exactly, is so obvious. Can't believe people are still domiahing the Dht "theory".

Scalp bloodflow, tension and skill expanaion/structure theories may explain the patterns, but not the cause.

 

[Will Be an Egg in 5 years]

'Our in vitro investigations revealed that exogenous testosterone and DHT treatment both had striking effects on the induction of VSMC [vascular smooth muscle cells] calcification.'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4837411/

'Here, we show that oestrogen inhibits the osteoblastic differentiation of vascular smooth muscle cells (VSMCs) in vitro and arterial calcification in vivo by promoting autophagy.'

Oestrogen Inhibits Arterial Calcification by Promoting Autophagy - Scientific Reports

Arterial calcification is a major complication of cardiovascular disease. Oestrogen replacement therapy in postmenopausal women is associated with lower levels of coronary artery calcification, but its mechanism of action remains unclear. Here, we show that oestrogen inhibits the osteoblastic...

www.nature.com

From the original poster Timli's link:

'This, then, not only explains why baldness occurs but also why men are more likely to become bald than women, since bone growth or calcification is generally greater in males than in females.'


View attachment 151888

'Sodium thiosulfate [which is very cheap and water soluble] has been used extensively and safely to treat calcific uremic arteriopathy (a disease, in part due to calcification of small arteries) in dialysis patients. It increases the solubility of calcium by up to 100,000 fold and is also a potent anti-oxidant.'

ClinicalTrials.gov

clinicaltrials.gov

View attachment 151889

Can we rub It or inject it in the scalp?

 

[pegasus2]

Going to change my signature to, "androgens are the cause of male pattern baldness".

 

[KNemo]

Can we rub It or inject it in the scalp?

Sodium Thiosulfate is used topically and have a reasonable molecular weight so perhaps? Seems to be mostly water soluble though which could be a problem for deeper penetration. A hydrogen sulfide donor (positive for stem cell proliferation and renewal), a vasodilator and an antifungal with calcium chelating properties seems like an almost perfect match to treat the calcification theory angle. Surely people must have experimented with it before?