Worried about AR upregulation? Do this.

[FollicleGuardian]

Wedelia chinensis herb inhibits the feedback from the AR receptor. And thus prevents the AR upregulation, which some are worried about.

Oral or topical supplementation could be an idea to overcome this:

Frontiers | A Standardized Wedelia chinensis Extract Overcomes the Feedback Activation of HER2/3 Signaling upon Androgen-Ablation in Prostate Cancer

Crosstalk between the androgen receptor (AR) and other signaling pathways in prostate cancer (PCa) severely affects the therapeutic outcome of hormonal thera...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[Selb]

“WCE was administered through gavage at a dosage of 10 mg/kg“ Dosage info.

Also, luteolin is something else that downregulates ARs:

Downregulation of androgen receptor expression by luteolin causes inhibition of cell proliferation and induction of apoptosis in human prostate cancer cells and xenografts | Request PDF

Request PDF | Downregulation of androgen receptor expression by luteolin causes inhibition of cell proliferation and induction of apoptosis in human prostate cancer cells and xenografts | Androgen receptor (ARs) play a crucial role in the development and progression of prostate cancer. Recent...

www.researchgate.net

https://bunker4.zlibcdn.com/dtoken/6c6cdde8133aa7103775556c4d44ad8e

^For the full article. Seems to be 50 mg/kg was the most effective in the study

 

[pegasus2]

“WCE was administered through gavage at a dosage of 10 mg/kg“ Dosage info.

Also, luteolin is something else that downregulates ARs:

Downregulation of androgen receptor expression by luteolin causes inhibition of cell proliferation and induction of apoptosis in human prostate cancer cells and xenografts | Request PDF

Request PDF | Downregulation of androgen receptor expression by luteolin causes inhibition of cell proliferation and induction of apoptosis in human prostate cancer cells and xenografts | Androgen receptor (ARs) play a crucial role in the development and progression of prostate cancer. Recent...

www.researchgate.net

https://bunker4.zlibcdn.com/dtoken/6c6cdde8133aa7103775556c4d44ad8e

^For the full article. Seems to be 50 mg/kg was the most effective in the study

For mice, so 4mg/kg for us.

 

[inmyhead]

even if somebody isn't worried about AR upregulation, shouldn't downregulation of AR be good thing for hair anyways?

 

[FollicleGuardian]

It looks like this also blocks EGFR. There are more potent EGFR/HER2 inhibitors, but persistent EGFR inhibition will cause hair quality changes, or even hair loss. There are also case reports of EGFR inhibition causing hair growth, but it comes with hair texture changes. It's only good to use those drugs to promote neogenesis after wounding.

Bummer.. thanks for sharing.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I would love to see pics indicative of the difference that AR regulation or changes induce new hair growth. Unfortunately on our HRT thread, we have people discussing this but it never seems to go anywhere. Our thread, where I have seen many pics of clear and consistent regrowth by perhaps a handful of people who post is indicative that HRT can be successful at creating the hair growth of an adult female.

We have multiple people posting hair recoveries over time which can be followed as it goes forward. I have five years of pics but it seems as though two things finally helped me break through. One of them is oral minoxidil which any guy can try.

The second thing is that I believe HRT improves hair incrementally over many years but cis-guys often don't want to wait several years for uncertain payback. Pursuing HRT for non-MtF's is a bit of a slog, meaning there can be multiple meds to monitor the intake of. I am doing this without a "pure" AA but I am using medroxyprogesterone, which might be a much better substitute.

Some of the literature indicates that to restore hair from slick baldness in a year or so, the person has to maintain hormone levels of an adult cis-female to "turn on" hair growth again, for 12 full months. One might view it as a digital turning on where the body provides feedback to the signals that the change in estrogen and testosterone levels provide that say "oh, this is an adult cis-female and cis-females have all of their hair". We know that virtually no MtF's lose more hair after starting HRT. FtM's on the other hand, often begin to bald as soon as they put down the syringe of testosterone.

I know you guys are looking for a solution that is non-feminizing but I sincerely doubt that such a thing exists. Baldness is present apparently on several genes so simply re-writing one or two genes would not do it. We have two different types of "candidates", namely MtF's who want further feminization and cis-guys who don't want any but because the parameters are on a spectrum, it works as a discussion thread. Second, for some cis-guys, there is a level of feminization as a trade-off that is acceptable which I would characterize as slight gyno. MTF's tend not to grow breasts at all in many cases and they can be just as obsessed about inducing more breast growth as the folks who are focused on hair. Like cis-females, however it appears that there is no way to make breasts increase in size short of gradual titration of estrogen and AA's.

I laugh because I say this to put things in perspective stochastically but I have had significant and persistent breast growth that is impossible to hide on my slight 5' 6" frame. Much larger guys tend to have breast growth spread over a much larger surface area and any growth will appear minimal and easy to hide. This is a perfect example of a "bug versus a feature". I tried to avoid breast growth for three years unsuccessfully and they appear to still be developing persistently. How much? Almost D cups and they are round like a cis-female's. Many/most MtF's have conical breasts that they find to differ too much from cis-breasts for their tastes. Hence, 50 to 70 percent of MtF's opt for breast augmentation.

It's all worth it for me, male, female and other because I am restoring almost a full head of hair and it's only been six months.

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/exploring-the-hormonal-route-hair-life.109288/page-634#post-1925912

Goddess bless your attempts to find your solution for you.

 

[Selb]

I would love to see pics indicative of the difference that AR regulation or changes induce new hair growth. Unfortunately on our HRT thread, we have people discussing this but it never seems to go anywhere. Our thread, where I have seen many pics of clear and consistent regrowth by perhaps a handful of people who post is indicative that HRT can be successful at creating the hair growth of an adult female.

We have multiple people posting hair recoveries over time which can be followed as it goes forward. I have five years of pics but it seems as though two things finally helped me break through. One of them is oral minoxidil which any guy can try.

The second thing is that I believe HRT improves hair incrementally over many years but cis-guys often don't want to wait several years for uncertain payback. Pursuing HRT for non-MtF's is a bit of a slog, meaning there can be multiple meds to monitor the intake of. I am doing this without a "pure" AA but I am using medroxyprogesterone, which might be a much better substitute.

Some of the literature indicates that to restore hair from slick baldness in a year or so, the person has to maintain hormone levels of an adult cis-female to "turn on" hair growth again, for 12 full months. One might view it as a digital turning on where the body provides feedback to the signals that the change in estrogen and testosterone levels provide that say "oh, this is an adult cis-female and cis-females have all of their hair". We know that virtually no MtF's lose more hair after starting HRT. FtM's on the other hand, often begin to bald as soon as they put down the syringe of testosterone.

I know you guys are looking for a solution that is non-feminizing but I sincerely doubt that such a thing exists. Baldness is present apparently on several genes so simply re-writing one or two genes would not do it. We have two different types of "candidates", namely MtF's who want further feminization and cis-guys who don't want any but because the parameters are on a spectrum, it works as a discussion thread. Second, for some cis-guys, there is a level of feminization as a trade-off that is acceptable which I would characterize as slight gyno. MTF's tend not to grow breasts at all in many cases and they can be just as obsessed about inducing more breast growth as the folks who are focused on hair. Like cis-females, however it appears that there is no way to make breasts increase in size short of gradual titration of estrogen and AA's.

I laugh because I say this to put things in perspective stochastically but I have had significant and persistent breast growth that is impossible to hide on my slight 5' 6" frame. Much larger guys tend to have breast growth spread over a much larger surface area and any growth will appear minimal and easy to hide. This is a perfect example of a "bug versus a feature". I tried to avoid breast growth for three years unsuccessfully and they appear to still be developing persistently. How much? Almost D cups and they are round like a cis-female's. Many/most MtF's have conical breasts that they find to differ too much from cis-breasts for their tastes. Hence, 50 to 70 percent of MtF's opt for breast augmentation.

It's all worth it for me, male, female and other because I am restoring almost a full head of hair and it's only been six months.

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/exploring-the-hormonal-route-hair-life.109288/page-634#post-1925912

Goddess bless your attempts to find your solution for you.

I was thinking from the POV of using RU/any topical AA and then an extra supplement to counteract AR up regulation. Not that the supplement itself would do anything for hair growth

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I was thinking from the POV of using RU/any topical AA and then an extra supplement to counteract AR up regulation. Not that the supplement itself would do anything for hair growth

Many of us are doing, in essence, "free" research for manufacturers, this site and other XY's and such attempts and their recounting is quite valuable so I commend those looking for an "edge" and trying to understand why hair loss might seem to come on after many years of stasis on reductase inhibitors. I might not know all of the particulars because MtF's rarely go back to being cis or whatever after a long enough period of time in which to effectuate regrowth. But estrogen appears to lack AR effects in most MtF's but there are cases where DHT is still plugging away even in the absence of testosterone entirely via emasculation via chemicals or surgery.

 

[Selb]

Many of us are doing, in essence, "free" research for manufacturers, this site and other XY's and such attempts and their recounting is quite valuable so I commend those looking for an "edge" and trying to understand why hair loss might seem to come on after many years of stasis on reductase inhibitors. I might not know all of the particulars because MtF's rarely go back to being cis or whatever after a long enough period of time in which to effectuate regrowth. But estrogen appears to lack AR effects in most MtF's but there are cases where DHT is still plugging away even in the absence of testosterone entirely via emasculation via chemicals or surgery.

I think in rare cases of hair loss continuing even on nuclear regimens, we have a few reasons. One could be slow upregulation of androgen receptors such that even a tiny amount of androgens negatively affects hair. Another, and in tandem with the previous reason, could be that tissue DHT is still produced and can affect hair follicles even with dht blockers you’ll miss a bit. Or, we don’t know everything about hair loss and we’re missing something

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I think in rare cases of hair loss continuing even on nuclear regimens, we have a few reasons. One could be slow upregulation of androgen receptors such that even a tiny amount of androgens negatively affects hair. Another, and in tandem with the previous reason, could be that tissue DHT is still produced and can affect hair follicles even with dht blockers you’ll miss a bit. Or, we don’t know everything about hair loss and we’re missing something

I think that you are right. From time to time I see questions on the MtF boards where people are in fact complaining of hair loss even after SRS. DHT seems to be able to manufacture itself. My dermatitis was unaffected by my MtF meds until I commenced beard removal. After a few such treatments which can take up to 24 months or longer, my face cleared and lightened in color. Strangely enough, females of all races have lighter skin than their male counterparts from the same race. It's so obvious in before and after pics. Estrogenized skin seems less fit for the outdoors in general and more so among whites. I love the creaminess and the lack of roughness but my skin is now almost translucent and more apt to burn from the sun, bruise and be cut by scraping thorns or any sharp edge really. The skin is far more elastic as well. The effects of estrogen on skin are often the only effect that MtF's see externally and pretty much all MtF's experience the skin effects in as little as 30 days.

Like you, I think that the beard tissue was manufacturing its own DHT and scalps might do this also. Then there is T and DHT coming from the adrenal glands which appears to be the main issue for MTF's post-beard removal, post SRS. Using estrogel on the scalp and on the face might be efficacious exactly for these reasons. It all goes systemic but in essence local tissue gets 2 "shots" of estrogen, both locally first where it might be more efficacious against DHT and then again after the systemic estrogen is circulating. Estrogel is however, definitely feminizing even in the scalp, and some people only use estrogel as their HRT estrogen so it's still not a solution really for cis-male sufferers of hair loss except related to the dual application mode of both local and systemic estrogen. The hope for cis-guys is that estrogel works disproportionately on scalp tissue for some reason, perhaps allowing a person to use less than feminizing amounts but I doubt it. Testosterone is far more copious in amount in terms of volume in both males and females but estrogen can largely "disarm" T and its other androgens and also aromatize T, although not DHT apparently, so that's another confounding factor.

There are three main estrogens in females but it is not as cut and dried that estrone and estriol and estradiol cause different effects like DHT and T. They ought to and many cis-males conjecture that estriol might not induce breast growth. There are a couple of guys using copious amounts of estriol but they don't show their breasts, lol. In practice, all three estrogens and several mare estrogens as well as meds that are synthetic but similar in function to pure estradiol seem to promote feminization but perhaps that is due to metabolites as estrone and estradiol in particular convert back and forth. Estriol is most prevalent towards the end of pregnancy after progesterone and estrone work their "magic". After birth, the body tends to switch back to estradiol but this can also vary based upon age.

 

[Selb]

I think that you are right. From time to time I see questions on the MtF boards where people are in fact complaining of hair loss even after SRS. DHT seems to be able to manufacture itself. My dermatitis was unaffected by my MtF meds until I commenced beard removal. After a few such treatments which can take up to 24 months or longer, my face cleared and lightened in color. Strangely enough, females of all races have lighter skin than their male counterparts from the same race. It's so obvious in before and after pics. Estrogenized skin seems less fit for the outdoors in general and more so among whites. I love the creaminess and the lack of roughness but my skin is now almost translucent and more apt to burn from the sun, bruise and be cut by scraping thorns or any sharp edge really. The skin is far more elastic as well. The effects of estrogen on skin are often the only effect that MtF's see externally and pretty much all MtF's experience the skin effects in as little as 30 days.

Like you, I think that the beard tissue was manufacturing its own DHT and scalps might do this also. Then there is T and DHT coming from the adrenal glands which appears to be the main issue for MTF's post-beard removal, post SRS. Using estrogel on the scalp and on the face might be efficacious exactly for these reasons. It all goes systemic but in essence local tissue gets 2 "shots" of estrogen, both locally first where it might be more efficacious against DHT and then again after the systemic estrogen is circulating. Estrogel is however, definitely feminizing even in the scalp, and some people only use estrogel as their HRT estrogen so it's still not a solution really for cis-male sufferers of hair loss except related to the dual application mode of both local and systemic estrogen. The hope for cis-guys is that estrogel works disproportionately on scalp tissue for some reason, perhaps allowing a person to use less than feminizing amounts but I doubt it. Testosterone is far more copious in amount in both males and females but estrogen can still aromatize T, although not DHT apparently, so that's another confounding factor.

There are three main estrogens in females but it is not as cut and dried that estrone and estriol and estradiol cause different effects like DHT and T. They ought to and many cis-males conjecture that estriol might not induce breast growth. There are a couple of guys using copious amounts of estriol but they don't show their breasts, lol. In practice, all three seem to feminize but perhaps that is due to metabolites as estrone and estradiol in particular convert back and forth. Estriol is most prevalent towards the end of pregnancy after progesterone and estrone work their "magic". After birth, the body tends to switch back to estradiol but this can also vary based upon age.

For those who don’t want to use estrogen, I’d also recommend a topical and oral application of finasteride/dutasteride. Also, a topical anti androgen like RU/CB/Keto cream. This way you’re making sure the most detrimental tissue is taken care of. Microneedling would help too for penetration.

It’s interesting though that follicles signal to androgen receptors like you said. If you laser removed them, the androgen effects went away too?I wonder then, in completely bald men, why do their bald scalps have high levels of androgens? My only guess is that the follicles aren’t gone or destroyed like you did with the laser removal. It implies they’re all alive and functioning, but stuck in a perpetual dormant state from miniaturization

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

For those who don’t want to use estrogen, I’d also recommend a topical and oral application of finasteride/dutasteride. Also, a topical anti androgen like RU/CB/Keto cream. This way you’re making sure the most detrimental tissue is taken care of. Microneedling would help too for penetration.

It’s interesting though that follicles signal to androgen receptors like you said. If you laser removed them, the androgen effects went away too?I wonder then, in completely bald men, why do their bald scalps have high levels of androgens? My only guess is that the follicles aren’t gone or destroyed like you did with the laser removal. It implies they’re all alive and functioning, but stuck in a perpetual dormant state from miniaturization

I couldn't have stated it better. While I suppose both T and DHT support beard growth, DHT is only needed for two things: differentiation of the sexes before birth and for the initiation of post-pubertal hair growth although cynically, for whites, we might include initiation of diminution in quality and hair loss in males. I will continue to explore this topic as whites are far more susceptible to hair loss than non-whites. African Americans are susceptible and more so than Africans but many share a large percentage of genes with whites and we all know how that came to pass. So, viewing baldness non-negatively, we might instead compare it to similar distinguishing effects in other mammals such as male African lions having manes, the growth of horns, antlers and tusks, as well as something similar to hair loss in male chimps.

I guess it could be argued that not only are these secondary pubertal effects in lions, walruses, elephants, etc. something that makes the males more fit in terms of defending the pride or brood if involved at alll but the fighting aspect among some species is quite dangerous, and certainly, in lions and large apes, the males tend to be far stronger but also far more "ornery" which differs little from humans as 95% of people in jail are male. Before the war on drugs, there were virtually no females in jail although saying they made up two percent of prisoners is a rough estimate (similar to transgender folks clocking in at 2 percent of the population in general). Males are more willing to incur risk, use illicit drugs and alcohol and are subject to what can only be described as highly disturbing aggression and finally, more susceptible to extreme anger to the extent that that differs from aggression. Such effects might be muted in older MtF's but I don't think so. We are more inclined to "cooperate" and less inclined to tantrums. Even when other drivers cut me off now, I don't shake my fist. I just tell myself that they are in a bigger hurry than I am and that we all know what it's like to be late and stuck in traffic. In terms of sexual stereotypes, yes that is all true. We want and need sex less often and the intimacy becomes more important because another side effect of androgens is compulsive and fixed fantasization/fetishing. Especially stupid things like cuckolding p**rn lose their edge entirely. Ironically, becoming a female takes away the shame and guilt and fixative focus so the very fantasies of being forced to feminization become unavailable to a person using estrogen, yes but especially AA's like spironolactone.

Just to throw this in, spotted hyenas, except for birthing ability, are all of the same gender to the extent that mere observation of these animals cannot determine gender. Even inspecting the genitalia is confounding as the female clitoris can grow to the same or greater length and diameter as the more submissive males and they give birth through the clitoris which is sort of bizarre to consider and far more dangerous for the hyena than for animals that use the vagina for birthing purposes. I think that this animal has a lot that it can teach us about androgenic hormonal impulses and like baldness perhaps in whites, other types of hyenas lack the rigid female-led hierarchy of spotted hyenas who are stereotypical like humans, just reversed. The pecking order is determined by which hyenas are licked "down there" by whom. Males often struggle to get licked and have to resort to "homosexual" behavior. The female also controls entirely the mating process until she is done and lets the poor male hyena withdraw. Insertion is futile unless the female cooperates and the male is in a precarious position that nullifies his aggression further. I always hated hyenas but now I find them bizarre and fascinating. You might say that hyenas all use the same pronouns, almost but ultimately things are reversed and it is a female-dominant hierarchy where being the male offspring of a successful female is the only way to gain status, which is more similar I guess to marriage during the days that women had limited opportunities to mate or work outside the home or local area. But clearly being a scion of a wealthy, successful male elevates the females in such a context.

Goddess bless.

 

[jamesbooker1975]

Wedelia chinensis herb inhibits the feedback from the AR receptor. And thus prevents the AR upregulation, which some are worried about.

Oral or topical supplementation could be an idea to overcome this:

Frontiers | A Standardized Wedelia chinensis Extract Overcomes the Feedback Activation of HER2/3 Signaling upon Androgen-Ablation in Prostate Cancer

Crosstalk between the androgen receptor (AR) and other signaling pathways in prostate cancer (PCa) severely affects the therapeutic outcome of hormonal thera...

www.frontiersin.org

"cell model "

 

[jamesbooker1975]

For those who don’t want to use estrogen, I’d also recommend a topical and oral application of finasteride/dutasteride. Also, a topical anti androgen like RU/CB/Keto cream. This way you’re making sure the most detrimental tissue is taken care of. Microneedling would help too for penetration.

It’s interesting though that follicles signal to androgen receptors like you said. If you laser removed them, the androgen effects went away too?I wonder then, in completely bald men, why do their bald scalps have high levels of androgens? My only guess is that the follicles aren’t gone or destroyed like you did with the laser removal. It implies they’re all alive and functioning, but stuck in a perpetual dormant state from miniaturization

Make it easier, get your testicles remove. With that regimen, will be useless anyway. And will be much cheaper and much less side effects. " RU/CB/Keto cream plus microneedling " lol . You will get less androgens active than a women.

 

[pegasus2]

That's been a topic of debate for decades, but it's generally believed now that most bald men still have all their follicles, they just don't produce visible hair. It seems to take decades for the follicle to be destroyed completely by fibrosis.

Dr. Paus said in an interview in 2017 that we'd probably have a major breakthrough pharmacologically in a couple years. Of course when that happens it will take a long time for it to be commercialized, but he's optimistic we'll have more effective and safe, non-feminizing treatments. This might be the breakthrough he was hoping for. Unfortunately it's not something that will be easily obtained on the grey market. We will probably have to wait for a decade of testing to get it, if they ever even attempt to bring it to market for hair loss.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

"cell model "

I did just notice that article yesterday but I have never heard of that med. Maybe they put it in Chinese hair loss cures such as George used on Seinfeld. Anything that mentions cross-talk is apt to be quite pertinent.

 

[pegasus2]

This is worth trying instead. The price really isn't bad. $3,000 worth would last more than 6 months. That's not bad for something that should be more potent than estrogen, at least when combined with other Wnt agonists.

 

[sonictemples]

That's been a topic of debate for decades, but it's generally believed now that most bald men still have all their follicles, they just don't produce visible hair. It seems to take decades for the follicle to be destroyed completely by fibrosis.

Dr. Paus said in an interview in 2017 that we'd probably have a major breakthrough pharmacologically in a couple years. Of course when that happens it will take a long time for it to be commercialized, but he's optimistic we'll have more effective and safe, non-feminizing treatments. This might be the breakthrough he was hoping for. Unfortunately it's not something that will be easily obtained on the grey market. We will probably have to wait for a decade of testing to get it, if they ever even attempt to bring it to market for hair loss.

So it is basically overpowering the negavite effects of DHT, right? Like a very strong minoxidil

 

[LouisSarkozy]

That's been a topic of debate for decades, but it's generally believed now that most bald men still have all their follicles, they just don't produce visible hair. It seems to take decades for the follicle to be destroyed completely by fibrosis.

Dr. Paus said in an interview in 2017 that we'd probably have a major breakthrough pharmacologically in a couple years. Of course when that happens it will take a long time for it to be commercialized, but he's optimistic we'll have more effective and safe, non-feminizing treatments. This might be the breakthrough he was hoping for. Unfortunately it's not something that will be easily obtained on the grey market. We will probably have to wait for a decade of testing to get it, if they ever even attempt to bring it to market for hair loss.

i whish so bad you're right about follicle still being " alive" on slick bald area.... i'm so far gone it's depressing af

 

[pegasus2]

Couldn’t this be injected into 1 cm2, just to check the results? And if it works we could spend the 3000 usd.

If you have a research company that can buy it. I don't think it would take long to see results, in 2 to 3 months it would be very apparent.

So it is basically overpowering the negavite effects of DHT, right? Like a very strong minoxidil

Supercharged minoxidil. In the end everything comes down to beta-catenin translocation. Rspo2/3 keeps that going almost regardless of what else is going on. If you can keep R-spondin levels high then Wnt signaling keeps going.