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JaneyElizabeth

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This is worth trying instead. The price really isn't bad. $3,000 worth would last more than 6 months. That's not bad for something that should be more potent than estrogen, at least when combined with other Wnt agonists.
So does this substance completely change the type of skin that a person experiences under estrogen? The skin effects of estrogen are transcendent in terms of differences from male adult XY skin. I believe that this is related to hair improvement/hair restoration but I have read and experienced that only reaching adult female hormonal profiles. Once again, you are doing great research but I tend to evaluate treatments by the extended posting of hair results pictorially which is not a knock here. Not many people are going to drop $3,000 on a hair med unless and until it is shown to work unambiguously in terms of regrowth from dormant follicles. We already have dutasteride, which has selective anti-androgenic effects that are directed at DHT and not T. I never felt any difference on dutasteride except maybe it made me more male-ish, not less perhaps due to its effect of often increasing serum T.
 

Selb

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If you have a research company that can buy it. I don't think it would take long to see results, in 2 to 3 months it would be very apparent.

Supercharged minoxidil. In the end everything comes down to beta-catenin translocation. Rspo2/3 keeps that going almost regardless of what else is going on. If you can keep R-spondin levels high then Wnt signaling keeps going.
Do you have that in your regimen? Might be worth a try to test it
 

JaneyElizabeth

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i whish so bad you're right about follicle still being " alive" on slick bald area.... i'm so far gone it's depressing af
They definitely are only dormant and still alive. I think that is well established, perhaps in the last five years. Pegasus takes everything but he had impressive regrowth for a male but what I would characterize as disappointing for MtF's. Literally, if we have any recession or significant crown thinning then we are simply unable to pass because females have a completely different pattern of hair loss that is virtually always diffuse. How are my balding follicles regrowing hair again, if not only dormant? I have posted pics constantly going back to 2015 and especially this year, I am reporting on progress every handful of weeks or so and posting several pics each time and the progress is clear. The temples lag but the incipient bald spot is completely gone and my sideburns are now hair. So cheer up!
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Yes my company has a pharmaceutical license, might try it. But could it cause cancer?
Would it triple anagen cycles? Too much of baldness is looked at in a digital way, i.e. either turned on or off. At least for MtF's, it appears to be a variety of factors due to increased anagen, skin effects and estrogen's apparent healing effects on follicles which have lost access to virtually all of their blood flow. Hair (loss) and beard growth if not inevitably linked are highly correlated. I think that these secondary sexual characteristics are very difficult to modify and based, more or less, on the same wiring, meaning scalp hair is generally only guaranteed for females among whites with significant beard growth largely unknown among them and even among people who lack the ability to grow beards. It's completely different for Siberians and Native Americans. I have had clients from Central America with very high percentages of native blood and they all have sensational hair comparable to females. Guess what they lack all but entirely? Beards and beard growth. For some unknown reason post-pubertal hair loss is simply part of the general white male (ageing) experience. Beards and hair vel non always work to distinguish a person's gender from many meters away. Even stubble affects the way that females regard any particular XY as potentially "dangerous" if unknown to them. I emphasize this to MtFs hesitant to remove their beards. Post-beard removal pre-pandemic, I noticed that the younger waitresses in our local bar all seem to speak to me more and were willing to get in the car with me to vape or smoke or even go somewhere. I looked less dangerous not to mention that I looked much, much younger. Beard removal is more "feminizing" in its effects than HRT is and it isn't even close except for the very few who see reduced beard growth from HRT.

Does baldness facilitate vitamin D ingestion? Probably but Siberians have hair even though they are noted to be "north men" as well. It could just be a random mutation that has prospered because as we know, baldness is highly correlated with masculinity and hair loss and such bald men might be stronger or more aggressive or what have you. For the balding, money is used to attract XX's instead of hair.
 
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Selb

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More and more I’m starting to believe that the wnt pathway is the key to solving male pattern baldness...
 

pegasus2

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So does this substance completely change the type of skin that a person experiences under estrogen? The skin effects of estrogen are transcendent in terms of differences from male adult XY skin. I believe that this is related to hair improvement/hair restoration but I have read and experienced that only reaching adult female hormonal profiles. Once again, you are doing great research but I tend to evaluate treatments by the extended posting of hair results pictorially which is not a knock here. Not many people are going to drop $3,000 on a hair med unless and until it is shown to work unambiguously in terms of regrowth from dormant follicles. We already have dutasteride, which has selective anti-androgenic effects that are directed at DHT and not T. I never felt any difference on dutasteride except maybe it made me more male-ish, not less perhaps due to its effect of often increasing serum T.
Do you have that in your regimen? Might be worth a try to test it

I would if I could get it. They won't sell to individuals. I'm going to be using Infigratinib soon to try and upregulate R-spondin. I don't know if that will work, and it certainly won't work as well as exogenous RSPO2, but it's worth a shot.

Estrogen's effect on hair growth isn't mediated by skin changes, it's the up regulation of anti-apoptotic genes. It just happens to be good for skin as well, but you can grow hair on any skin.

I wouldn't say my results were disappointing for all mtf. I was regrowing at a faster pace than bridgeburn before I cut back on my treatment. Let's not forget that most mtf don't get the impressive regrowth that you see in the best cases. Full recovery is rare.
 

pegasus2

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The test is to induce growth using it and then stop and hope the dht blockers keep the growth stable
Right.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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More and more I’m starting to believe that the wnt pathway is the key to solving male pattern baldness.
Meaning a full head of hair that lags female hair generally if not entirely? My father is 83 years old and he, like Ronald Reagan and maybe Ronnie, simply has good hair genes. I wonder if he produces reductase at all, his hair is so steady. Still my mother's hair at 80 is better and grows long unimpeded. I am trying to do some research about the well-known mullet effect on hair behind the neck but essentially all of my hair susceptible to mulleting has changed in quality.

How do I know? Because the curls in the back have completely reversed from being upward, difficult to manage curls that looked simply horrible to now being "downward facing" curls or wave that turns down instead of up. It clearly seems associated with hair improvement in an area where I have never had balding but yes, a significant reduction in quality. As I first changed on top, even last month, my hair still had a granny aspect to it and and some older females seem to experience something similar to the crimped hair look associated with the mullet look. I hated my profile for that reason and now I see that my very profile looks much less aged and granny-ish. Sorry for focusing so much for the MtF experience but I do think that it is relevant in a context where somebody is alleging that male hair can be regrown to note that that still puts males on a spectrum generally always inferior to females as well as I suppose still exposed to mulleting but maybe whatever is suppose to change signalling only produces say Harrison Ford type hair which struggles to look good when worn long which I still might take in terms of coverage since my temples as always are lagging.

For me, during puberty I had equal hair to females and I also had the ability to grow it just as long. The long hair test is the ultimate test when someone is not just looking for coverage. I wrote about this earlier today on the HRT thread using pics of Son of Sam to emphasize that some men might look better bald: https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-route-hair-life.109288/page-634#post-1925850
 

JaneyElizabeth

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I would if I could get it. They won't sell to individuals. I'm going to be using Infigratinib soon to try and upregulate R-spondin. I don't know if that will work, and it certainly won't work as well as exogenous RSPO2, but it's worth a shot.

Estrogen's effect on hair growth isn't mediated by skin changes, it's the up regulation of anti-apoptotic genes. It just happens to be good for skin as well, but you can grow hair on any skin.

I wouldn't say my results were disappointing for all mtf. I was regrowing at a faster pace than bridgeburn before I cut back on my treatment. Let's not forget that most mtf don't get the impressive regrowth that you see in the best cases. Full recovery is rare.
It's true. Part of his marketing schtick was how long it got with what presented as child-like curls but talk about extensive feminization. I think that he almost certainly "male fails" in the MtF jargon meaning that even in pants people take him for female. He never was happy with his corners and like most of us, shied away from taking pictures of them. The rest of the mop was sensational like rock star hair. He was brilliant as well but my goal unlike his is to help people use the fewest meds possible not the kitchen sink approach which he took on more and more which defeated the experiment in a certain sense for those wishing to only appear cis-male. What did what or was it synergistic? I don't expect to have to use anything the rest of my life except for oral, swallowed estradiol to maintain which is good since I have spent a fortune on topical estrogen this year.

Related to breast growth, he was petite like me but he definitely had better than average growth although he was cagey about stating cup size or showing them. I have been frank about my breast growth at the same time relating that statistically his growth which was at least a B and mine, very close to D cups was highly unusual. I used so little estrogen that I unwittingly mimicked cis-female puberty levels of estrogen which maximizes the potential for breast development. I like 'em now and so did he. Bug or feature? That can change even with the same person over time.

You know, I actually don't know the extent of hair recovery among MtF's. For one thing, using wigs is a custom even for non-balding MtF's. There a whole thing where certain MtF's are looking for "teased volume" as part of the different MtF cultures which vary radically in tastes. I know that the majority of the university and hospital sites state not to expect any regrowth or further hair loss but it clearly isn't this dismal. Those same sites state that breast growth is permanent and it clearly is not permanent until a certain size is reached particularly on you tall, broad strong guys. Breasts look puny always on such chests. Indeed, breast augmentation has to be so extensive in these cases as to present to me, as a type of bimbofication which is a hot thing apparently now.

Sometimes on the other thread, I post transition pictures of MtF's who were not bald when starting HRT. Now these pics are self-selected but still, it is apparent in guys with great hair that their MfF hair is better and has an ability to grow longer and look good. The Beatles raised me so the ability to grow my hair long like my four fathers is important, well it was in a male context. Now I expect it. At the least I will have hair like Sting used to have, meaning all of my hair now appears unaffected by DHT save the temple corners. This type of male pattern baldness to me is by far the best scenario and temple regression is less stigmatizing than having both temple and crown and diffuse thinning like I used to have. Still diffuse thinners probably have an advantage in the MtF context. Am I obsessed with hair? I look at every single person's hairline, crown and note the length and whether it looks good long or whether it looks like a hobo like mine used to.

I know of two pictures that are generally bandied about as indicative of full recovery from extensive male pattern baldness. One is on Rob's site and it is excellent and so close but still the recession in the corners is apparent. The other one is of a blonde female that was horse shoe bald and had a recovery similar to Pegasus. She continues to wear a wig. There's no stigma in this for us. In fact, the opposite. It's much better to use a nice wig like many cis-females than to present as female with extensive baldness. People who know Janey, know me this way in a wig. I expect to be able to ditch it soon although it's kind of nice in winter for its warmth but it sucks to wear one during the day in summer. I might still use it on special occasions. Because my own hair is very similar in color, I hope to slide androgynously to using my own hair as it becomes acceptably long. It now covers my ears and is much longer in back. I almost cut it and realized that I don't cut my hair and as part of my experiment, I want to see if it all eventually reaches the same length. My sister suffers from extensive female pattern loss but my hair is already better than hers except in the corners so too bad for her since she opposed my transition vociferously.

Generally, there are at least ten times as many questions about breast growth on MtF fora than about hair. MtF's tend to be obsessed with breasts as a feature, not a bug, and like on here, they will try anything Rube Goldberg-esque or not. It doesn't work so in my opinion, hair loss is certainly more manageable than breast growth. Next, I keep harping on meeting adult female hormonal targets of a 26 year old female before significant regrowth is possible. Although I still have my hair loss in an male pattern baldness pattern, my regrowth/improvement is from a female pattern loss perspective meaning all hair on my scalp is improving at the same time. Perhaps oral minoxidil which I started nine weeks ago at 15 mg in two daily split doses can improve all hair as well but we still don't have good stats related to its efficacy and whether or not it speeds hair growth while effectuating regrowth. I think that it definitely increases the rate of growth.
 
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Selb

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You know, I actually don't know the extent of hair recovery among MtF's. For one thing, using wigs is a custom even for non-balding MtF's. There a whole thing where certain MtF's are looking for "teased volume" as part of the different MtF cultures which vary radically in tastes. I know that the majority of the university and hospital sites state not to expect any regrowth or further hair loss but it clearly isn't this dismal. Those same sites state that breast growth is permanent and it clearly is not permanent until a certain size is reached particularly on you tall, broad strong guys. Breasts look puny always on such chests. Indeed, breast augmentation has to be so extensive in these cases as to present to me, as a type of bimbofication which is a hot thing apparently now.

Sometimes on the other thread, I post transition pictures of MtF's who were not bald when starting HRT. Now these pics are self-selected but still, it is apparent in guys with great hair that their MfF hair is better and has an ability to grow longer and look good. The Beatles raised me so the ability to grow my hair long like my four fathers is important, well it was in a male context.

Generally, there are at least ten times as many questions about breast growth than about hair. MtF's tend to be obsessed with breasts as a feature, not a bug, and like on here, they will try anything Rube Goldberg-esque or not. It doesn't work so in my opinion, hair loss is certainly more manageable than breast growth. Next, I keep harping on meeting adult female hormonal targets of a 26 year old female before significant regrowth is possible. Although I still have my hair loss in an male pattern baldness pattern, my regrowth/improvement is from a female pattern loss perspective meaning all hair on my scalp is improving at the same time. Perhaps oral minoxidil which I started nine weeks ago at 15 mg in two daily split doses can improve all hair as well but we still don't have good stats related to its efficacy and whether or not it speeds hair growth while effectuating regrowth. I think that it definitely increases the rate of growth.

It’s one thing to return to your baseline, what your hair would have been without male pattern baldness. It’s another to supercharge your hair to compete with female hair. I’m ok with the former and it’s probably easier to achieve
 

JaneyElizabeth

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It’s one thing to return to your baseline, what your hair would have been without male pattern baldness. It’s another to supercharge your hair to compete with female hair. I’m ok with the former and it’s probably easier to achieve
Absolutely. Wearing hair long is often at odds with success in the business world for both males and females. I just like to emphasize these points so that folks in a male context don't have unreasonable expectations and so that they realize that achieving their pubertal hairline is all but impossible without significant amounts of estrogen. Too often the topic seems to just equate hair growth for everyone except when we are discussing female pattern baldness. I am a cis-male and I enjoyed it for 49 years and I continue to identify more with cis-males. We mostly come from similar upbringings related to "maleness" and even parentally-enforced hair cuts. I know the loss of control and how horrible that feeling is but I was lucky as I was pretty much the perfect age to combat hair loss as polysorbates begin to run a lot of infomercials about nine months after I noticed incipient thinness in the crown. Then minoxidil came out three years later and then finasteride ten years later and I maintained without ever seeing regrowth.

By keeping as much as I did, it set me up for easier success I believe in an MtF context. My before hair pictures would probably be acceptable to pretty much all of the cis-males who post. The crown was largely covered, the recession wasn't extensive and it didn't meet up with the crown recession. The rest was diffuse thinning which meant that the follicles had no need to be awakened from dormancy. It has taken far longer than I expected (7 years) and far higher levels of estrogen as well as an understanding about the process by which breasts develop and by which female hair might be restored.
 
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pegasus2

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Do women actually have better hair than young men though before male pattern baldness kicks in? I'm not sure about that.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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Do women actually have better hair than young men though before male pattern baldness kicks in? I'm not sure about that.
No. I don't think there are any differences. I just noticed first at 18 that my hair didn't look good longish anymore and then on my 20th birthday, surprise, I saw an incipient bald spot. My parents both have great hair but their three children less so although the maintenance of Min/finasteride obscures this. If a cure is coming, keep as much as possible beforehand to expedite things. I often wonder though that if curing baldness becomes easy and automatic, how much the use of such a cure would be even if affordable. Once something is always out there, it becomes less important relatively and procrastination can occur. "Eh, I can do it in spring after I get my bonus".

What if a cure also resulted in the loss of all beard hair growth? Would people still use it? Isn't beard hair growth essentially the white male version of female hair growth? Why the stigma of baldness?
 
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