Sitri Conference 04.14.2018: Brotzu Presentation - Updates Only

[IdealForehead]

oh okay !.. I was using 60 cetirizine tablets filtered in 60 ml tap water + PG

I dont want to take too much of your time so do you have a link about desloratadine and how to make a topical out of it.

It seems like nobody is talking about it on this forum.

There's not much to it. I buy desloratadine from Geekee on Alibaba:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...l?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.23.155d976fbDsXrH

I've never tested it so I can't be sure it's legit, but I'm gonna get it tested next time I go for testing to be sure.

For a 1% solution, I mix 0.4 grams into 40 mL of 5% minoxidil or a custom base of 50% propanediol, 30% ethanol, 20% water.

That's basically it. It dissolves very easily.

 

[Vinc2097]

There's not much to it. I buy desloratadine from Geekee on Alibaba:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...l?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.23.155d976fbDsXrH

I've never tested it so I can't be sure it's legit, but I'm gonna get it tested next time I go for testing to be sure.

For a 1% solution, I mix 0.4 grams into 40 mL of 5% minoxidil or a custom base of 50% propanediol, 30% ethanol, 20% water.

That's basically it. It dissolves very easily.

ok thanks

 

[sunchyme1]

@IdealForehead if minoxidil didnt give you any sides would you keep using it? is the anti ageing thing the only problem with this stuff?

 

[IdealForehead]

@IdealForehead if minoxidil didnt give you any sides would you keep using it? is the anti ageing thing the only problem with this stuff?

Yeah that's the main problem, but it's fundamental to its mechanism. I'm not going to use minoxidil for the next 30 years when by definition its mechanism is to stimulate inflammation:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...ol-will-make-your-face-look-like-sh*t.109593/

I don't want premature aging cosmetically or to my joints etc.

I can manage my hair with what I'm doing now, so why potentially inflame and damage my collagen for no reason.

 

[Vinc2097]

Minoxidil over couple of months made my skin under my eyes go whiter.. you can see a clear discolored difference

 

[Arrade]

The primary useful ingredient in Brotzu is s-equol, as described here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-and-the-primary-ingredient-in-brotzu.113209/

However, of the two types of equol, s-equol is the weaker one for hair. A racemic equol (r-equol & s-equol) topical would be far more effective. Though this added effectiveness is coming from the 5-AR downregulatory effect of r-equol. In prostate studies, r-equol does very well at shrinking prostates. This is another variation of how finasteride/dutasteride work.

But s-equol by itself should be expected to be weak and this is no surprise.

I have long thought Brotzu was a meme/joke on this forum. People talking about "Lord Brotzu", etc. It's unfortunate some people actually believed the hype. All that's in it is:

- s-equol - almost no effect against prostates or skin, and unproven for hair.
- DGLA - a PGE pre-cursor, selected primarily so they could call this a "natural product" and escape regulation.
- carnitine - an amino acid for which I am aware of one in vitro study showing a stimulatory effect, but unproven on actual heads.

This was never going to be a "game changer" for the hair loss industry, and while I found the enormous thread on it and memes funny, it's unfortunate some people truly didn't get what this was or wasn't and ended up with unrealistic expectations.

That said, there is definitely some improvement from before-after in those pics. It suggests in my opinion just how much more effective racemic equol mixed into 5% minoxidil would be as an "alternative hair loss solution".

If I were to propose such an "alternative hair loss solution", it would be:

- 5% minoxidil base
- 5% niacinamide for anti-sebum, anti-inflammatory, pro-collagen effect
- 1% desloratadine (anti-histamine)
- 1% racemic equol

I would strongly bet that would beat Brotzu's formulation head to head.

I don't see your argument of racemic equol is more effective. Just because it removes the 5-AR enzyme (hello side effects) does not mean it's any better at affecting the DHT blocking at the hair follicle. S-equol is the only natural version already made in humans

 

[Vinc2097]

There's not much to it. I buy desloratadine from Geekee on Alibaba:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...l?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.23.155d976fbDsXrH

I've never tested it so I can't be sure it's legit, but I'm gonna get it tested next time I go for testing to be sure.

For a 1% solution, I mix 0.4 grams into 40 mL of 5% minoxidil or a custom base of 50% propanediol, 30% ethanol, 20% water.

That's basically it. It dissolves very easily.

but aren't you not using minoxidil anymore as you said in this thread ?

 

[IdealForehead]

but aren't you not using minoxidil anymore as you said in this thread ?

No I am not using minoxidil anymore. That's why I said "or a custom base of 50% propanediol, 30% ethanol, 20% water". I am using my custom base now instead. You can use propanediol, propylene glycol, or dipropylene glycol for the 50%.

Propylene gylcol has the highest solubility for most things but can be a bit more irritating to the skin for people who are sensitive to it.

 

[Arrade]

I prefer in principle androgen receptor antagonists (eg. daro) over 5-AR inhibitors (eg. finasteride) so I have never bothered to pursue that.

@IdealForehead
Can I ask why this is?
For me, 5AR-Enzyme is like the river from which androgens and neurosteroids flow.
But the androgen receptors are the buckets that receive these anrdrogens.
Do these antagonists go systemic? Do they permanently remove/damage androgen receptors? From your posts I personally want to try daro, but I don't want it going systemic and affecting brain receptors/dick/muscle receptors.

 

[IdealForehead]

@IdealForehead
Can I ask why this is?
For me, 5AR-Enzyme is like the river from which androgens and neurosteroids flow.
But the androgen receptors are the buckets that receive these anrdrogens.
Do these antagonists go systemic? Do they permanently remove/damage androgen receptors? From your posts I personally want to try daro, but I don't want it going systemic and affecting brain receptors/dick/muscle receptors.

I am not suggesting you or anyone else use daro. Everything has pros and cons. I like daro because:

- It doesn't cross the blood brain barrier
- My sexual function has been unaffected as a result
- It doesn't change hormone levels.

By contrast with 5-AR's:

- They do cross the blood brain barrier
- Sexual function problems are a common complaint
- Hormone levels are altered.

In terms of potency daro also has a much better theoretical effect, as it can completely block both test and DHT from binding to the receptors, while something like finasteride can only reduce scalp DHT 60% and do nothing for testosterone.

A strong androgen receptor antagonist like daro could well cause many problems long term, even in small doses. If you want to know what risks androgen receptor antagonists pose in general, google 'androgen deprivation side effects'. I've read plenty and that's my personal choice. I'm happy with it.

People who sit on this website hoping for a miracle drug with zero risks, zero side effects, and perfect activity against hair loss are delusional. It's like all the people hoping Brotzu would be a magic side effect free cure.

To stop androgenic damage - to truly completely stop it - you need fairly strong agents. If you don't care about your hair enough to pay the price, then let your hair go. You can live with the side effects of being bald instead.

 

[Vinc2097]

No I am not using minoxidil anymore. That's why I said "or a custom base of 50% propanediol, 30% ethanol, 20% water". I am using my custom base now instead. You can use propanediol, propylene glycol, or dipropylene glycol for the 50%.

Propylene gylcol has the highest solubility for most things but can be a bit more irritating to the skin for people who are sensitive to it.

ok thnaks ! i use PG with cetirizine and its all good ! in fact since i have scalp itchness because of male pattern baldness, alcohol in minoxidil was hell and itchness way worse everytime i was applying it. (my shaved head probably made it worse, topical reach the scalp automatically).

-----
If you mind can i ask about niacinamide ? I searched about it the last hour and i've seen a lot of mixed review.

People taking it orally complain about the '' flush'' and how it can induce pgd2. And research seems to be 50/50 about if it has positive or negative effects on hair loss.

Do you use it orally or topically. Something that could be used topically i've found is this :

- The Ordinary Niacinamide 10% + Zinc 1%

https://www.amazon.ca/Ordinary-Niac...F8&qid=1523824029&sr=1-1&keywords=niacinamide

 

[IdealForehead]

ok thnaks ! i use PG with cetirizine and its all good ! in fact since i have scalp itchness because of male pattern baldness, alcohol in minoxidil was hell and itchness way worse everytime i was applying it. (my shaved head probably made it worse, topical reach the scalp automatically).

-----
If you mind can i ask about niacinamide ? I searched about it the last hour and i've seen a lot of mixed review.

People taking it orally complain about the '' flush'' and how it can induce pgd2. And research seems to be 50/50 about if it has positive or negative effects on hair loss.

Do you use it orally or topically. Something that could be used topically i've found is this :

- The Ordinary Niacinamide 10% + Zinc 1%

https://www.amazon.ca/Ordinary-Niac...F8&qid=1523824029&sr=1-1&keywords=niacinamide

Niacinamide is bought as a powder from:
http://www.herbstoreusa.com/niacinamide-100g.html

Niacin is what causes the flush. Niacinamide does not.

Niacinamide 5% has proven anti-acne, anti-sebum, and anti-inflammatory action. That's why I use it. Acne and hair loss are similar androgenic processes. I have found it is good for my skin. It also promotes collagen. It's dirt cheap.

I add 5% powder to my liquid.

Some amount of ethanol is desirable in all topicals as a penetration enhancer. It helps the actives penetrate deeper. You may be fine without it, but I wouldn't mix a topical without at least 10% ethanol personally.

 

[Vinc2097]

Niacinamide is bought as a powder from:
http://www.herbstoreusa.com/niacinamide-100g.html

Niacin is what causes the flush. Niacinamide does not.

Niacinamide 5% has proven anti-acne, anti-sebum, and anti-inflammatory action. That's why I use it. Acne and hair loss are similar androgenic processes. I have found it is good for my skin. It also promotes collagen. It's dirt cheap.

I add 5% powder to my liquid.

Some amount of ethanol is desirable in all topicals as a penetration enhancer. It helps the actives penetrate deeper. You may be fine without it, but I wouldn't mix a topical without at least 10% ethanol personally.

Yeah 10 % is okay i would tolerate ! And i use 95 % ethanol..

I dont want to bother you but i cant find any topical niacinamide regimen.
----------
A topical would be like 10 % ethanol + 30 % PG + 60 % water in which i pour how many grams of the powder ?

Than i apply 1ml two times a day just like minoxidil ?

 

[IdealForehead]

Yeah 10 % is okay i would tolerate ! And i use 95 % ethanol..

I dont want to bother you but i cant find any topical niacinamide regimen.
----------
A topical would be like 10 % ethanol + 30 % PG + 60 % water in which i pour how many grams of the powder ?

Than i apply 1ml two times a day just like minoxidil ?

Well the whole point is to create a single comprehensive solution with everything in it. You shouldn't have to dump multiple solutions on your scalp multiple times a day. That's not sustainable.

So you could do 40 mL of:

60% water
30% PG
10% ethanol

And add:

0.4 grams desloratadine (1%) - assuming this much dissolves in your vehicle (I think it will)
2 grams niacinamide (5%).

Percent is calculated as weight in grams divided by volume in mL.

You should try to take an anti-androgen orally (eg. finasteride) or add one topically as well to the solution or you're not likely to have major success. But you might slow your loss down a bit this way.

 

[Arrade]

@IdealForehead Is there a thread of your hairloss journey? Like, what Norwood did you start at, what hair have you gained/maintained.
Unfortuanely I'm more constrained in treatment than you, but I must say I admire your fearlessness but also dedication to research.

 

[IdealForehead]

@IdealForehead Is there a thread of your hairloss journey? Like, what Norwood did you start at, what hair have you gained/maintained.
Unfortuanely I'm more constrained in treatment than you, but I must say I admire your fearlessness but also dedication to research.
View attachment 85399

I've posted it a hundred times now I can't even keep track. In fact, I'm starting to feel like I am just repeating myself over and over these days.

I think I will one day before I am done here write a very long thread with everything or most of everything I have known or learned about making topicals, different drugs, hair loss in general, etc.

We'll see. Thanks.

I just searched my old post history and here was one from January that summarized things roughly, with the addition of my having had a forehead reduction procedure 2-3 weeks ago:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...than-enzalutamide.105402/page-24#post-1610020

 

[sunchyme1]

dont piss ideal off @Arrade !!!

he is our f*****g saviour man!!

 

[Arrade]

I've posted it a hundred times now I can't even keep track. In fact, I'm starting to feel like I am just repeating myself over and over these days.

I think I will one day before I am done here write a very long thread with everything or most of everything I have known or learned about making topicals, different drugs, hair loss in general, etc.

We'll see. Thanks.

I just searched my old post history and here was one from January that summarized things roughly, with the addition of my having had a forehead reduction procedure 2-3 weeks ago:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...than-enzalutamide.105402/page-24#post-1610020

Sorry man, I've only been here month! I also wish you would post pics of your scalp, along with hormones tests and what not. Obviously this is all your own time, but I think it would benefit others. I don't know if you post about women/etc in other threads man but I'd be interested to hear or talk about it.
Plus I hate this forum because of some people/ redundant or useless filler. Memes are cool

 

[Seuxin]

What ? Niacinamide doesn't create the pgd2 flush but it's only the Niacin. But why using niacinamide should be good for hair ?

 

[Arrade]

dont piss ideal off @Arrade !!!

he is our f*****g saviour man!!

Hey I'm hungover on 4loko and moonshine! But srs, I just want to talk to him on an equivalent level in terms of understanding what he's using. Not to mention his measures are quite drastic. I don't criticize at all, I just don't think we see eye to eye on all his treatment methods. But he is one of my favorite posters