an answer to the question, can you get sides from topical finasteride if it does not go systemic?

[scientist_0005]

And it still causes side effects at that dose, because even a small dose is enough to nuke DHT

View attachment 170731

in your world "nuke" means below 10%? lol even placebo often has that difference. the study proved that below 0.01 systemic finasteride intake you have barely any dht reduftion. once again, when you apply 0.001% as the other guy said thats 0.01mg of which 10% get throigh the skin layers, you are looking at a whopping 0.001mg finasteride per ml of his formulation. if you looj at your graph where do you think that number is goinf to end up in terms of dht reduction? its not even on the graph because smart scientists know its ridiculous to expect any significant reduction. and this guy thinks that his blood test showed altered testosterone levels of all things which even with high doses hardly change not even to mention that androgens change quite q bit on a daily basis, the daily fluctations are litterally bigger than what you can expect with the 10 fold dosage he applied. it is comical truly and extremely unrealistic. just think about this for a second and try to explain to me, without personal bias how that would even be possible?

again the facts for you

he applied 0.01 mg of finasteride daily only a small fraction goes systemic. 0.01mg show a 10% reduction of dht which kight even be daily fluctation but lets say it is not. then 1/10% of 10% is 1% but its not a linear curve i give you that but will still be lower so his systemic dht reduction will probs be qt a whopping 3-4%? you cant even measure that and it CERTAINLY will not have any impact what so ever on testosterone which has daily fluctations much higher than even what a normal dose of oral finasteride can achieve

 

[Micky_007]

and of course some random guys on a hair loss forum beat the scientific method. but it is not like anyone cares abiut that in the research section. carry on putting semen on your temples then

You're also some random guy on the internet who's username is Scientist but probably isn't one, but is probably Janey Elizabeth.

 

[Micky_007]

lol just look on tressless many people with good results from topical finasteride, most report reduced sides. but you completely ignore that which is utterly hilarious

Also, I find it hilarious how first you don't want people to believe anyone from hairloss forums and then you ask us to look at Tressless. LOL make up your mind.

Also, barely anyone used to mention Tressless as much as Janey Elizabeth and now there's you talking about that forum, what a coincidence.

 

[Micky_007]

There's no one else that spam messages this forum as much as Janey Elizabeth did , but now conveniently after she left there is this rash of a person who posts continuously and pro-Finasteride just like Janey and dislikes almost every single comment she doesn't agree with.

Super creepy vibes. Definitely found Janey Elizabeths new account, its @scientist_0005

LMFAOOOO.

 

[scientist_0005]

lol whats the point arguing with someone who has such a severe personal vendetta against one of rhe most prescribed drugs in the US. it is sad that the scientific method is raped so badly here but i will accept that not everyone can be open minded and unbiased. btw i am not very pro finasteride and am not even using it orally but with people like you that does not even go through not because sou are to dumb but because your personal believe system can not allow it. now i want to ask you if you have nothing to contribute to the topic take your irrational fear mongering and make your own thread as you are spamming mine, i made this thread and its not about your anti finasteride bullshit where you post low quality studies that fit your view and neglect everything that does not even if there is better proof for it.

 

[Micky_007]

Lol, oh Janey the irony of you talking about bias and raping the scientific method...

Janey has used her time to create multiple burner accounts since her ban. And that we've had an influx of extremely hateful trolls, it's all way too Coincedental that all these trolls only popped after Janey was banned . It's pretty transparent now, he/she is behind all of them LOL.

I also noticed a pattern; all of these new trolls who are either extremely hateful have usernames that are obviously the opposite of what the person behind it is.
Remember the "AmazingHair", "GreatHairGenes", etc... Now "scientist_0005" who clearly isn't a scientist, LOL.

 

[Micky_007]

lol whats the point arguing with someone who has such a severe personal vendetta against one of rhe most prescribed drugs in the US. it is sad that the scientific method is raped so badly here but i will accept that not everyone can be open minded and unbiased. btw i am not very pro finasteride and am not even using it orally but with people like you that does not even go through not because sou are to dumb but because your personal believe system can not allow it. now i want to ask you if you have nothing to contribute to the topic take your irrational fear mongering and make your own thread as you are spamming mine, i made this thread and its not about your anti finasteride bullshit where you post low quality studies that fit your view and neglect everything that does not even if there is better proof for it.

Also, just because Finasteride has a high number of prescriptions doesn't mean it's safe or effective, it's also use for Prostate Cancer/issues. It just means that unfortunately due to lack of medical advancements, we are stuck with only 2 FDA approved treatments. Hence the reason why most people use Finasteride because as a doctor/dermatologist, you prescribe usually only what is FDA approved, and unfortunately alot of people just like many many medical professionals don't know any better or don't have any other options that they know of. Doesn't mean Finasteride is great lol.

Also, the only people who use the word "Fear Mongering" are people like you on the internet who aren't true medical professionals or even a "scientist". Every medical professional is meant to discuss the possible side effects.

Imagine a doctor not talking about potential complications or side effects because it's "fear mongering" LMFAOOOO, but here you are calling the literal side effects of Finasteride "fear mongering" LMAOOOO.

Also there's literally a large group of people sueing to have it removed from the market.

 

[FilthyFrancis]

There's no discussion possible here.
You have studies presented to you showing that serum DHT reduction is minimal ( Among others ), and you just answer to that a resounding no, because of personal not so rigorous forum experiments, with different vehicles and difference experience in a non controlled environment.

I'm not discarding personal experience or saying you guys all lies, but why are you all in the research sections if you just discard all studies on the basis of your personal experience?
Are all scientific studies just lies? Why do you even bother reading those?
I'm not saying topical finasteride is side free, i'm not even saying it's good, i'm not even saying this study is perfect and that other contradictory studies are sham.
But if we're to only rely on forum personal experiences to discard completely more scientific studies, then we have to believe everything coming out of Raypeat forum, everything coming out of indian aunties promising cures if you rub rosemary oil onto your scalp and so on.


There's no such thing as a side free treatment at all.

You also have studies (like the Polichem one) showing you serum DHT impact is just as heavy with topical as with oral with a single application past a certain concentration.

It's not rocket science to understand the principle of accumulation...

Then again, I have heard many reports (at least 10+ of people complaining of systemic sides under the Mazzarella regimen). I tried it myself, didn't work. Feel free to try it yourself instead of whining here.

Resources of trials and failures are numerous on HairLossTalk.com but feel free to open your own thread to tell your experience.

 

[FilthyFrancis]

lol so it was enough to give you systemic reduction side effects but not enough to reduce hair loss? how does that even work? how much was your dht reduced to baseline? do you know what a dose ranging study is? they test various doses as part of pharmacology resewrch of a drug. they found out that below 0.05mg finasteride does nor reduce dht to a significant extent. yes, the dose response curve is very steep, finasteride does accumulate and the bodies ability to sysnthesise new 5AR might be slightly overpowered. but realize that with its properties only 10-20% of topically applied finasteride reach the system. that means of your teeny teeny tiny dose of 0.001% if you lets say applied 1ml per day, thats 0.0015 mg on average. that is so fsr below what they even bothered to test as part of the pharmacology. i would also point out that i have personally talked with people that tried 0.003% and they also did blood test and found zero systemic impact. so your N=1 study is not the ultimate proof of anything at all.

also realize that i am not claiming topical finasteride is the end all be all solution for everybody and some people will probably get sides even from small 20-30% reduction of dht. but for other people double the dht they would have under oral use kighr just be enough to avoid sides, this is very possible as obviously there is a difference between nuking your dht by 70vs 25%. numerous studies have shown a therapeutic benefit and scalp dht reduction. you dont have to be bitter that it did not work for you because there are definitely reports of people for whom it did work and while no proper scientific method was applied there either it proofs it can be a solution for some if not a significant portion of people that cannot use oral finasteride

Finasteride's positive effect on hair can take a while so it's no surprise not to see any benefits on hair in 6 months

My DHT reduction was around 55% after 6 months and you are right, I was taking 1 mL of 0.001% a day.

For the rest, I am out of this discussion.

Try it yourself instead of coping on this forum. If you are so convinced about the viability of low dose topical finasteride, why spending your time on this forum when you could get maintenance with "reasonable" sides (i.e. what people but smarty-pants call sides-free here)?

At some point, you need to quit talking and act

 

[scientist_0005]

You also have studies (like the Polichem one) showing you serum DHT impact is just as heavy with topical as with oral with a single application past a certain concentration.

It's not rocket science to understand the principle of accumulation...

Then again, I have heard many reports (at least 10+ of people complaining of systemic sides under the Mazzarella regimen). I tried it myself, didn't work. Feel free to try it yourself instead of whining here.

Resources of trials and failures are numerous on HairLossTalk.com but feel free to open your own thread to tell your experience.

polivhem used 25 times thw dosage you used xD

 

[scientist_0005]

polichem lowest dosage uses 5 times that of mozarella and they had 25% serum reduction. i call bullshit on your lab results tbhbor you used some super good vehicle where absorption was superior. if 0.001mg finasteride per day reduces dht by 55%, 90% of what is used therapeutically at a dosage of 1000, right, that is one thousand the dosage used for hair loss. look at the graph pigeon posted, 0.01mg clovks in at 10% after 6 months. now imagine what 1/10th of that does.


even if accumulation is the issue, if it takes many months to get sides, stop for a week finasteride should have left yiur body, then restart and yiu get another 6 months if therapy with no sides. just repeat that and yiu are set. your hairlosstalk studies dont proof anything, most people who end uo here do so because they are extremely sensitive to finasteride or have an extreme fear of it and they would get sides from anything. but it doesnt matter, studies have no value against anecdotes which is convenient for you but the very reason i will close this thread because it ended up being full of sh*t posts unfortunately.

 

[FilthyFrancis]

polichem lowest dosage uses 5 times that of mozarella and they had 25% serum reduction. i call bullshit on your lab results tbhbor you used some super good vehicle where absorption was superior. if 0.001mg finasteride per day reduces dht by 55%, 90% of what is used therapeutically at a dosage of 1000, right, that is one thousand the dosage used for hair loss. look at the graph pigeon posted, 0.01mg clovks in at 10% after 6 months. now imagine what 1/10th of that does.


even if accumulation is the issue, if it takes many months to get sides, stop for a week finasteride should have left yiur body, then restart and yiu get another 6 months if therapy with no sides. just repeat that and yiu are set. your hairlosstalk studies dont proof anything, most people who end uo here do so because they are extremely sensitive to finasteride or have an extreme fear of it and they would get sides from anything. but it doesnt matter, studies have no value against anecdotes which is convenient for you but the very reason i will close this thread because it ended up being full of sh*t posts unfortunately.

Sure man, Parati liposomal vehicle.

I could also show you lab results but you would call it Photoshop.

Hit me up whenever you need something tangible and want to stop speculating

 

[300]

conveniently ignoring the fact that you can still reduce scalp dht and that therapeutic effects have been shown by mozwrella. but i get it, people here are so opposed to finasteride its not even worth debating anything related to it. whatever

Like you said above,they are demonizing finasteride.

 

[Lobster]

I’m planning on starting topical finasteride at an extremely small dose. I honestly think that people are overdosing on drug but the main studies were done with 1mg per day so that’s what we’re going with.

 

[coolio]

"The only guys who end up on these forums are the tiny percentage who get extreme sides."

. . . . except that even with guys trying 5ar drugs (for the first time) while they are already members on the forums, you still see a very high incidence of side effects - D'oh!



The 5ar drugs block a potent androgen and indirectly elevate estrogen.
Many 5ar users complain about low androgen & high estrogen symptoms.

What's happening here is very frustrating. But it's no mystery.

 

[MrKmass]

i don't want to take partit but i will give my experience.

Finasteride is crap, I quickly understood it with the oral medication which gave me side effects even when lowering at very low doses (0.03 mg).

But I have started a mazzarella treatment for a few months in a topical version (0.05 mg / ml) I take 3 ml. In 5 months I have not yet felt any build-up or side effects.

 

[MrKmass]

Do you find it effective ?

At the moment not really. I gained in aesthetics (hair looks healthier and denser) but my hairline continues to recede. I do not expect results for another month (according to the Mazzarella study, at this dose the hair loss did not stop until after 6 months of treatment).

 

[scientist_0005]

At the moment not really. I gained in aesthetics (hair looks healthier and denser) but my hairline continues to recede. I do not expect results for another month (according to the Mazzarella study, at this dose the hair loss did not stop until after 6 months of treatment).

so what is it, no benefit or hair thicker and healthier? that sounds like a benefit to me

 

[MrKmass]

so what is it, no benefit or hair thicker and healthier? that sounds like a benefit to me

Yes it is a benefit but I am fortunate to still have thick hair. What I'm concerned about is the receding hairline and the finasteride hasn't stopped it yet.

 

[corkmeister]

polichem lowest dosage uses 5 times that of mozarella and they had 25% serum reduction. i call bullshit on your lab results tbhbor you used some super good vehicle where absorption was superior. if 0.001mg finasteride per day reduces dht by 55%, 90% of what is used therapeutically at a dosage of 1000, right, that is one thousand the dosage used for hair loss. look at the graph pigeon posted, 0.01mg clovks in at 10% after 6 months. now imagine what 1/10th of that does.


even if accumulation is the issue, if it takes many months to get sides, stop for a week finasteride should have left yiur body, then restart and yiu get another 6 months if therapy with no sides. just repeat that and yiu are set. your hairlosstalk studies dont proof anything, most people who end uo here do so because they are extremely sensitive to finasteride or have an extreme fear of it and they would get sides from anything. but it doesnt matter, studies have no value against anecdotes which is convenient for you but the very reason i will close this thread because it ended up being full of sh*t posts unfortunately.

Honestly man, I agree with you in theory but if I've learnt anything it's that theory rarely equates to practice where hair loss in concerned. Yes, in theory there should be a dosage of topical finasteride that provides benefits but doesn't impact serum dht/cause sides. But Francis is right when he says that a lot of people have tried it over the years and have failed for a variety of reasons; be it lack of efficacy or manifestation of side effects. There are way too many unknown variables you cannot account for. It's not something that has been studied in great detail. The Mazzarella study is promising sure but I haven't seen anyone replicate it successfully with actual results. If it were really that simple we would have seen more success by now. Now, if there are actually a lot of people on tressless who've done this succesfully like you say, maybe there's something to it, but I've never seen anyone provide convincing evidence that such a protocol is both effective and side effect free.