Bald Macho Marine to a Long haired woman

[CaptainForehead]

But you think your issue is more valid than transgenderism because you are biased.

Heck no, I claim my issue is exactly as valid as transgenderism (put another way, transgenderism is exactly as valid as my issues).

Transgender people are different in that we know what we look like. We know our bodies are not the same as the gender we identify as, which is why steps are taken to bring the body in line with the identity.

"How is that different than someone with BDD getting surgery to correct their deluded view of themselves?" you may be wondering.

You seem to be ascribing views to me which I do not have. I have no objection to transgender surgery. What I am objecting to is forcing me to call a he a she. Invent a new pronoun. Some cultures actually consider transgenders a third gender.

discrimination/ignorant people such as yourself

I don't see how you get discrimination from my posts.

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You don't know that. You don't even know if you're XY.

True, but statistics say otherwise, that is, with high probability I'm XY.

If Bruce were XX, I might reconsider my pronouns.

biological sex (correlation: chromosomes)

Biological sex is what I base my pronouns on. As simple as that.

and gender identity are two entirely separate things.

I know. My point is exactly what you stated. That what your mental identity is, and what you biologically are, are two different things.

Transgenders have my heartfelt sympathy.

 

[EvilLocks]

I don't see how you get discrimination from my posts.

For once I agree with you Captain. I don't see where you discriminated at all, you simply stated your opinion which should be allowed on this forum. Just because someone doesn't agree with something, it doesn't mean they are discriminating.

 

[recedingyt]

You seem to be ascribing views to me which I do not have. I have no objection to transgender surgery. What I am objecting to is forcing me to call a he a she. Invent a new pronoun. Some cultures actually consider transgenders a third gender.

I don't see how you get discrimination from my posts.

So we should invent a new pronoun and make the world view us as even more second class than they already do? Because that's exactly what will happen. I think people on tumblr tried that with the xir/xe thing (I'm probably misspelling that) and it just gets mocked. There's also, you know, the fact that we literally aren't a third gender to begin with and refusing to acknowledge that because of your antiquated ideas about gender and sex is your own fault/shortcoming, and most important it's discriminatory. You want to classify us that way because of your own prejudices and transphobic ideology. It's not about, nor should it ever be about making you comfortable with our existence. That is why I get discrimination from your posts. You are quite literally refusing to acknowledge someone's medical condition in a way that is respectful. That is discrimination no matter how you chop it.

Biological sex is what I base my pronouns on. As simple as that.

That doesn't make you right. Language is divided by gender, not by sex.

At the end of the day I know you're just gonna refuse to acknowledge any of this in any sort of meaningful way though, so I will remind you of what Wolf Pack said in regards to this:

You're right CF about many people on here going through an "identity crisis" whatever it may be e.g hair. But the point is there is not meant to be any racism, homophobia, transphobia on this forum. If there are complaints (which there have been) then it needs to be addressed. All I said was legally their gender is changed, so we should stick to the law and be sensitive.

 

[CaptainForehead]

For once I agree with you Captain. I don't see where you discriminated at all, you simply stated your opinion which should be allowed on this forum. Just because someone doesn't agree with something, it doesn't mean they are discriminating.

TBH recedingyt is probably extrapolating to behavior from other people who also object to he/she, and who do engage in discrimination. I can totally get this misunderstanding.

I have zero problems with Bruce living life as a woman.
On a related note, I feel sad that crossdressers have to hide their activities for fear of judgement. I am aware of "purging".

 

[recedingyt]

TBH recedingyt is probably extrapolating to behavior from other people who also object to he/she, and who do engage in discrimination. I can totally get this misunderstanding.

I have zero problems with Bruce living life as a woman.
On a related note, I feel sad that crossdressers have to hide their activities for fear of judgement. I am aware of "purging".

I am not saying all discrimination is equal. You may be fine with people transitioning. You may not try to stand in their way. But any amount of intentional disrespect to something as core as someone's identity is still discrimination. Less serious discrimination than if you were lobbying against trans rights or targeting trans people with hate crimes, but still discrimination.

 

[CaptainForehead]

You want to classify us that way because of your own prejudices and transphobic ideology. It's not about, nor should it ever be about making you comfortable with our existence.

I am not
--transphobic
--uncomfortable with transgenders.

That is why I get discrimination from your posts. You are quite literally refusing to acknowledge someone's medical condition in a way that is respectful. That is discrimination no matter how you chop it.

Now, you're just making false accusations.
I just acknowledged the medical condition in an earlier post -- that of biological sex being different from mental gender identity.

 

[recedingyt]

I am not
--transphobic
--uncomfortable with transgenders.

Transphobic does not literally mean "afraid of trans people", nor is all transphobia equal just as not all acts of racism are on the same level. Transphobia, or transprejudice if it makes you more comfortable is "a range of antagonistic attitudes and feelings against transsexuality and transsexual or transgender people, based on the expression of their internal gender identity". Your refusal to acknowledge their gender identity in the way you address them is literally an antagonistic attitude (reminder: language is based on gender, not sex, so you basing your language on someone's biological sex is in direct opposition to their identity & you are doing it intentionally, after being corrected, which further compounds the issue).

Now, you're just making false accusations.
I just acknowledged the medical condition in an earlier post -- that of biological sex being different from mental gender identity.

Acknowledging it and acknowledging it in a way that is respectful and not intentionally antagonistic is the key distinction. A simple acknowledgement of the conditions existence is not the same thing as being empathetic to said condition.

 

[CaptainForehead]

But any amount of intentional disrespect to something as core as someone's identity is still discrimination.

I intend no disrespect. My language reflects a reality which differs from your mental identity. This absolutely does not mean disrespect (no matter how loud and often you claim it to be).

What you are in effect doing is seeking to ban certain statements which you disagree with by claiming purported disrespect.

 

[EvilLocks]

I know this is off-topic, but how did you go from a NW5 to NW1.5 without having a hair transplant, what's your secret, recedingyt? Would be interesting to see a thread from you with pictures if you really made this huge recovery

 

[CaptainForehead]

Transphobic does not literally mean "afraid of trans people",
....
Transphobia, or transprejudice if it makes you more comfortable is "a range of antagonistic attitudes and feelings against transsexuality and transsexual or transgender people, based on the expression of their internal gender identity". Your refusal to acknowledge their gender identity in the way you address them (reminder: language is based on gender, not sex) is literally an antagonistic attitude.

Now, we're redefining what phobia means.

So now, using your definition, if I disagree that a musician who plays crappy music (but who feels he is making masterpieces) is great, I am phobic and antagonistic towards struggling musicians because I don't agree with their mental identity.
And If I disagree with an ordinary person who says he is a genius, then I'm phobic and antagonistic towards ordinary people.

If phobia means disagreement, and taking a different POV, then I'm phobic towards all humanity.

 

[recedingyt]

I intend no disrespect. My language reflects a reality which differs from your mental identity. This absolutely does not mean disrespect (no matter how loud and often you claim it to be).

What you are in effect doing is seeking to ban certain statements which you disagree with by claiming purported disrespect.

Intent is irrelevant. Especially considering you are in opposition of changing your viewpoint even after I've spelled out why it's an issue. That, to me, demonstrates intentional disrespect (no matter how much you claim the contrary). I'm not seeking to ban or censor anything. I was the one who brought it up with the mods and asked if this was something that was okay. I had the choice to remove all of your posts, but I chose not to. There is room for a discussion like this to take place, or at least I thought there was, but when one side is so determined to jump around every point the other side is making I'm not sure there really is a point.

@EvilLocks

I lost almost all of my hair in a relatively short period of time (2-4 years), and I am very sensitive to most drugs compared to other people I know. A lot of people who start HRT at 22-23 (as I did) get less than desirable results, but I'm getting above average breast development, widening of the hip bones, fat redistribution, etc. My body just works in extremes I guess, much in the same way I was very susceptible to DHT to begin with. I've posted pictures in the past but my experience with that has been less than desirable. A lot of people said blatantly awful things to me because I'm trans. Granted most people were great about it, but others were downright mean (there have been bans because of it), so I just try to avoid doing that now.

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Now, we're redefining what phobia means.

So now, using your definition, if I disagree that a musician who plays crappy music (but who feels he is making masterpieces) is great, I am phobic and antagonistic towards struggling musicians because I don't agree with their mental identity.
And If I disagree with an ordinary person who says he is a genius, then I'm phobic and antagonistic towards ordinary people.

If phobia means disagreement, and taking a different POV, then I'm phobic towards all humanity.

Absolutely ridiculous comparison. I'm not even going to acknowledge it past that.

 

[EvilLocks]

@EvilLocks

I lost almost all of my hair in a relatively short period of time (2-4 years), and I am very sensitive to most drugs compared to other people I know. A lot of people who start HRT at 22-23 (as I did) get less than desirable results, but I'm getting above average breast development, widening of the hip bones, fat redistribution, etc. My body just works in extremes I guess, much in the same way I was very susceptible to DHT to begin with. I've posted pictures in the past but my experience with that has been less than desirable. A lot of people said blatantly awful things to me because I'm trans. Granted most people were great about it, but others were downright mean (there have been bans because of it), so I just try to avoid doing that now.

So you gained back your hair from HRT? Interesting. Sorry to hear people were mean about your pictures.

 

[recedingyt]

So you gained back your hair from HRT? Interesting. Sorry to hear people were mean about your pictures.

HRT, finasteride, and minoxidil. Minoxidil specifically has played a big role. I am an exception to the rule though.

@CaptainForehead

This will be the last thing I say to you in regards to this topic, but to give you an idea of why I take issue with this particular line of thought that you have:

You, a cis male, are telling me what is allowed to be offensive to me, a trans person, about my trans identity. It's completely nonsensical that you could think that you are in any way an authority on what is allowed to piss me off about that. You literally don't have the lived experience as a trans person to know what is and what isn't offensive. You have to understand that from my perspective, it is perceived as an attack on my identity and the identity of other trans people. Intent is irrelevant, the perception will always be the same. Until you educate yourself about trans issues and learn to address them in a way that is respectful, it will always be perceived as disrespectful and offensive by the people whose identity you are effectively ignoring/invalidating.

I really don't get the issue anyway... You said you acknowledge the difference between gender identity and biological sex. I've said it before, I'll say it again - language is based on gender, not sex, so if you truly acknowledge a person's gender identity it is most appropriate to use the pronouns they identify with.

 

[CaptainForehead]

You, a cis male, are telling me what is allowed to be offensive to me, a trans person, about my trans identity. It's completely nonsensical that you could think that you are in any way an authority on what is allowed to piss me off about that.

People can be offended by any number of things, that doesn't mean the statements in question are "offensive/demeaning" -- see my example about the musicians.

Until you educate yourself about trans issues and learn to address them in a way that is respectful, it will always be perceived as disrespectful and offensive by the people whose identity you are effectively ignoring/invalidating.

I really don't get the issue anyway... You said you acknowledge the difference between gender identity and biological sex. I've said it before, I'll say it again - language is based on gender, not sex, so if you truly acknowledge a person's gender identity it is most appropriate to use the pronouns they identify with.

That is unfortunate, that statements about my adherence to biological gender as pronoun determiners are taken as offensive. You say language is based on mental gender. I disagree. That is all. If people take offense at that, it is their shortcoming.

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I'm not seeking to ban or censor anything. I was the one who brought it up with the mods and asked if this was something that was okay. I had the choice to remove all of your posts, but I chose not to. There is room for a discussion like this to take place, or at least I thought there was, but when one side is so determined to jump around every point the other side is making I'm not sure there really is a point.

Props to you (and I am deeply disappointed in the mods for allowing that option of censorship for simply stating my POV, especially considering that this is a men's section).

I got into a conversation on another forum about trangenderism (the forum was for something completely different, as in our case), it was quite civil (as has our conversation here been), however that person chose to get the mods to erase all my posts -- which effectively amounted to imposing his POV on every forum member.

 

[swingline747]

I know what you're saying everyone but please be a bit more sensitive. Your own biological sex you can't change but you can change your gender legally. Be mindful this is a sensitive issue for someone going through this. Not having a go at anyone but generally to all concerned.

So does a norwood 7 guy with a wig automatically get to say hes norwood 1 and have everyone clap and tell him what a hero and how strong he is? I think not.... sorry its a dude. Lets put it this way sensitive guys???? YOU wanna date "her"?

Im taking now from reading more recedingt is a trans "person"....??? I say that right??? Hey dont care. Im not trying to be mean but I honestly dont. From my original joke you can see I have nothing against trans people but you are what you are...... Bruce is Bruce and a guy. This guy in the front page in a GUY. I could put rabbit ears on my head and call myself a bunny it doesnt make it so, in the words of a great man "sticking feathers up your butt DOES NOT make you a chicken".

I know these people WANT to be women or men but in the end you are not. Micheal Jackson wanted to be white, but he wasnt. Its not ignorance, ignorance is deluding yourself to think that just deciding to be something is enough and expecting EVERYONE to conform to your whims.

 

[Wolf Pack]

I think the conversation has been civil after the first initial post by CF. People will hold different views, it's just the way it goes, as long as they are not deliberately antagonising someone. CF isn't I believe. Still, I can see why it would be hurtful to another transgender person for lack of understanding. Ultimately you both will not agree. I might just pull the plug with this thread as this isn't the place for this kind of talk when it's very sensitive. You can both discuss via PM if you want.

 

[swingline747]

I think the conversation has been civil after the first initial post by CF. People will hold different views, it's just the way it goes, as long as they are not deliberately antagonising someone. CF isn't I believe. Still, I can see why it would be hurtful to another transgender person for lack of understanding. Ultimately you both will not agree. I might just pull the plug with this thread as this isn't the place for this kind of talk when it's very sensitive. You can both discuss via PM if you want.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Swoop]

I know this is off-topic, but how did you go from a NW5 to NW1.5 without having a hair transplant, what's your secret, recedingyt? Would be interesting to see a thread from you with pictures if you really made this huge recovery

It's not a discovery it's long known that 17b-estradiol can sometimes reverse androgenetic alopecia to a great extent. Just a grasp you can find some more obviously;

 

[EvilLocks]

Wow, Swoop, that is some good regrowth.

 

[Joan]

It's not a discovery it's long known that 17b-estradiol can sometimes reverse androgenetic alopecia to a great extent. Just a grasp you can find some more obviously;


OTE]

Wouldn't estrogen therapy increase her risk of breast cancer, though?

EvilLocks, is that you in your avatar?