CALLING ALL RU USERS - Time for another official RU thread

[buckthorn]

Hard to tell. Before I started finasteride, my scalp was itching like crazy, as if there were bugs crawling on it. I was also shedding a lot. I started finasteride last October(almost 1 year ago). Hairline was Norwood 2.5ish back then. I was shedding maybe 20 hairs(normal?) before switched to dutasteride 5 months ago. Shedding completely stopped after a few weeks. I was lucky to find 1 hair in the shower.

A couple weeks ago, I bought some Neogenic and AHK-Cu to mix with the RU. After rubbing this stuff on my hair, I'd find 200-400 hairs on my sink. Weird.

Previously, I was using Ethanol+PG as a vehicle for the RU. No shedding whatsoever.

I've applied Neogenic only(no RU), rubbed on my scalp, shed only about 50 or so hairs. Added RU to the Neogenic, shed 200+ hairs, every single time.

The top of my head is extremely diffuse at the moment. Maybe it's Telogen Effluvium?

Dude, I'll be honest - If you stopped shedding on dutasteride, I would drop the RU like a bag of bricks. No one really knows how this crap works.

I have had the same crawling feeling for 9 months now. I stopped finasteride (because I lost hair like crazy on it) and the crawling started. I just restarted finasteride and dutasteride a couple days ago and the crawling is at an all time high. Don't know what the hell to do or think. Please tell me since you had a similar situation -

How long after starting dutasteride did it take for the crawling to go away?

 

[Balding Virgin]

Dude, I'll be honest - If you stopped shedding on dutasteride, I would drop the RU like a bag of bricks. No one really knows how this crap works.

I have had the same crawling feeling for 9 months now. I stopped finasteride (because I lost hair like crazy on it) and the crawling started. I just restarted finasteride and dutasteride a couple days ago and the crawling is at an all time high. Don't know what the hell to do or think. Please tell me since you had a similar situation -

How long after starting dutasteride did it take for the crawling to go away?

Actually, the crawling sensation completely went away after starting finasteride, but I was still shedding quite a bit. Only after starting dutasteride did the shedding completely stop. I'm desperate for regrowth, so I'm gonna ride it out and hope the shedding stops. Who knows, maybe I'll end up a slick NW6 by next year. Sometimes you can't beat your genetics. At least I'll be happy knowing that I did everything I could.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Yes, I order from Kane. It's legit RU and always arrives on time.

If I were you guys, I would start by applying to a small area of scalp and monitoring it for a while. I know we are all in a rush, but RU may be having effects we don't even know about.

@Swoop - I am definitely not trying to scare anyone, but recently the thought of a compound entering the follicle cells and binding to receptors kinda scares me for some reason. Logically, this seems ideal because it's blocking DHT from binding. But, As a scientist, do you believe it's possible to have other effects on the cells or tissue as a whole?

I don't really know much about this, and have been out of the science game for over 10 years. I am just curious your opinion regarding this.

it SEEMS like sometimes I will apply RU to one specific area and have increases hair loss in the next COUPLE DAYS. Which, seems impossible to me, but happens none the less.

Have you ever had your hormones checked?

T
DHT
SHBG
Estrogen

 

[Clearingout]

When you guys ordered from Kane did yours get shipped from the UK?

 

[jgray201]

Yes i've often had my orders shipped from the UK.
Going off on a tangent - based on my experience i have had an interesting thought. Typically i've always assumed that the shorter the hair the better in terms delivery of topicals such as RU. However recently i've wondered if there is optimum hair length for each person dependent on dosage/sensitivity and probably other factors. For example, i've used RU for years now and often when my hair is short (for me grade 4) I've noticed increased shedding and some side effects. Now the shedding may not necessarily be bad shedding, but things always seem to settle down when my hair has grown out slightly. Note, i never have my hair long, i have always had it in a short/mid length style so when i say shorter or longer bare in mind that i am talking about it from my perspective.
Has anyone had any similar experiences to this? Is this just common-sense?

 

[Rocknroutlaw]

Yes i've often had my orders shipped from the UK.
Going off on a tangent - based on my experience i have had an interesting thought. Typically i've always assumed that the shorter the hair the better in terms delivery of topicals such as RU. However recently i've wondered if there is optimum hair length for each person dependent on dosage/sensitivity and probably other factors. For example, i've used RU for years now and often when my hair is short (for me grade 4) I've noticed increased shedding and some side effects. Now the shedding may not necessarily be bad shedding, but things always seem to settle down when my hair has grown out slightly. Note, i never have my hair long, i have always had it in a short/mid length style so when i say shorter or longer bare in mind that i am talking about it from my perspective.
Has anyone had any similar experiences to this? Is this just common-sense?

I always wear my hair long... lengthy at the back and sides, and roughly 2 inches long at the crown/temples with NW3-3V (some say almost reversed to 2-ish). The application of topical solutions is more difficult,as I have to avoid a handful of hair before reaching to every part of the scalp, and witouht double-panel mirrors it can be hard to see your application, so I'm sure there is at least slightly more waste.
As for shedding, it can be hard to detect, as the shedded hair is often still trapped by the lengthy adjacent hair until they get brushed or washed out.
I doubt the length has anything to do with how you respond to minoxidil/RU....other than the fact that when you keep your hair short the shedding may appear more in appearance.

 

[buckthorn]

Have you ever had your hormones checked?

T
DHT
SHBG
Estrogen

I did while on finasteride. All was normal (forget the numbers). I just remember T and DHT. DHT was at the very bottom of the spectrum and T was close to the top. I have started dutasteride again. I am going to give it an honest attempt as it's either that, or losing the rest of what I have left. I should get my hormones checked while on dutasteride, definitely. Will probably go in a month or so when it's concentration has adequately built in my body.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I did while on finasteride. All was normal (forget the numbers). I just remember T and DHT. DHT was at the very bottom of the spectrum and T was close to the top. I have started dutasteride again. I am going to give it an honest attempt as it's either that, or losing the rest of what I have left. I should get my hormones checked while on dutasteride, definitely. Will probably go in a month or so when it's concentration has adequately built in my body.

I recommend at least those four. @Armando Jose also suggests psa count. In general, if you're paying for it, most of the cost is for the blood test itself, it doesn't cost much more to test everything so you might as well include everything such as cholesterol, insulin, hbA1c, etc.

My mind has been speculating a lot on hairloss, etc. Not super informed. I'm not surprised you have low DHT given that you are not responsive to treatment, and that you are a diffuse thinner with an intact hairline. My guess? You have low DHT, low SHBG, high estrogen. Uninformed guess though due to the lack of info on hair loss. But if you can indulge me by having these things measured, I'd be grateful.

 

[buckthorn]

I recommend at least those four. Armando Jose also suggests psa count. In general, if you're paying for it, most of the cost is for the blood test itself, it doesn't cost much more to test everything so you might as well include everything such as cholesterol, insulin, hbA1c, etc.

My mind has been speculating a lot on hairloss, etc. Not super informed. I'm not surprised you have low DHT given that you are not responsive to treatment, and that you are a diffuse thinner with an intact hairline. My guess? You have low DHT, low SHBG, high estrogen. Uninformed guess though due to the lack of info on hair loss. But if you can indulge me by having these things measured, I'd be grateful.

Will do! I want to wait about a month on dutasteride though, so I can look back and compare. In some thread I posted my counts, need to find them.

 

[deniak]

Quick question - I dont have account on BTT, but I found interesting post from guy named "kadze", maybe he have account here? Basically he said that he got agglutination of semen on low doses of RU. My question to you (If youre on this board): how much RU you applied, did you used other drugs which might contribute to this issue?

On the other note, recently i found interesting info from hairloss boards OG, Bryan:

That doesn't jive with what Uno says in one of the macaque studies I have right here in front of me, and it's probably the same set of animals as what's described above. He says (added emphasis is my own): "The other interesting result observed in blocking androgen receptors was that the initial response of hair regrowth was much faster than with the hypertrichotic agent, minoxidil. However, despite such an early and marked effect, progressive hair growth stopped around 7 months, even though treatment continued. This was shown in both gross photographs and folliculogram patterns. However, a second wave of hair regrowth appeared around 17 months."

He goes on to emphasize that regrowth with topical RU58841 in stumptailed macaques does appear in a "wavy" pattern: "However, the effect of the receptor blocker, RU58841, was manifested in a periodic, wavy fashion. [...] Thus, we observed that the second wave of hair growth appeared approximately 12 months after the cessation of the first growth."

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/FORUMS/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=83104

Maybe this obseravtion explains why people see quick results with RU and then sudden lack of regrowth or shedding, they get angry or frustrated... I read plenty of times that people stop to apply RU at around one year mark, because it "stops to work"... Interesting.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

@deniak , I have not seen agglutination of semen, but it's not as though I've been looking for it.

A second wave of hair growth is something to look forward to, a year from now, if this is correct.

However, I don't want to use RU 58851 forever or indefinitely. I'm using it now because if I go bald, my odds with women will be further devastated. If I can switch to Brotzu/Histogen within 1 or 2 years, that will be great.

 

[Clearingout]

Ok, so I ordered from kane. I got a 10grams of RU and K & B solution to try a different vehicle. The out of the 4 times I've ordered RU, this is the first time its come from the UK and its differently packaged and the k and b is packaged from anageninc haha.

I'll start a photo log today and test to see how it goes.

 

[Swoop]

@buckthorn,

In a vitro assay RU was capable of blocking up to 70% DHT. It doesn't block all DHT, that's for sure. Also, yes it can go systemic imo and bind to AR in other tissue. Hope that answers your question?

 

[Prada1]

Out of curiosity, why has RU never made it into mainstream markets or marketed in general? I mean if it blocks 70% of DHT, at its relatively cheap costs, minimal side effects, localized effect and ease of application you would think its a jewel compared to finasteride. There are companies spending millions on RnD for new products but no one willing to spend a few thousand to market this? I haven't even heard of any trials or research on humans.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Out of curiosity, why has RU never made it into mainstream markets or marketed in general? I mean if it blocks 70% of DHT, at its relatively cheap costs, minimal side effects, localized effect and ease of application you would think its a jewel compared to finasteride. There are companies spending millions on RnD for new products but no one willing to spend a few thousand to market this? I haven't even heard of any trials or research on humans.

They thought the profit potential was low, and thus they had better things to do with their money than pay for phase III trials with RU.

That would cost millions, not "a few thousand".

 

[Prada1]

They thought the profit potential was low, and thus they had better things to do with their money than pay for phase III trials with RU.

That would cost millions, not "a few thousand".

If they have better things to do then why are there at least a half a dozen companies spending millions on RD for other male pattern baldness products? We have a whole section here with them listed. Which I should mention are much more complex in treatment and aren't even in phase 3 or 2. I would say a topical, inexpensive and safe male pattern baldness treatment is potentially a billion dollar market. Finasteride is prescription only and I know many people who want nothing to do with it due to the side effects. (ED)
I think by far most men care about their hair and are insecure about it. Most don't know about treatments or aren't willing to take a prescription drug.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

If they have better things to do then why are there at least a half a dozen companies spending millions on RD for other male pattern baldness products? We have a whole section here with them listed. Which I should mention are much more complex in treatment and aren't even in phase 3 or 2. I would say a topical, inexpensive and safe male pattern baldness treatment is potentially a billion dollar market. Finasteride is prescription only and I know many people who want nothing to do with it due to the side effects. (ED)
I think by far most men care about their hair and are insecure about it. Most don't know about treatments or aren't willing to take a prescription drug.

I didn't claim that the accountants made the right decision.

Also, the market has changed relative to fifteen years ago, clearly. There are lots of companies working on baldness now. I can't tell you why it's changed.

Whatever company currently owns the patent to RU 58851 might not even realize that it owns the patent. There might be nobody at the company bringing it up and saying "let's commercialize this". It's nobody's baby. Anybody who developed it and worked on it in the 1990s has long moved on.

 

[Bagels]

I didn't claim that the accountants made the right decision.

Also, the market has changed relative to fifteen years ago, clearly. There are lots of companies working on baldness now. I can't tell you why it's changed.

Whatever company currently owns the patent to RU 58851 might not even realize that it owns the patent. There might be nobody at the company bringing it up and saying "let's commercialize this". It's nobody's baby. Anybody who developed it and worked on it in the 1990s has long moved on.

Plus, there are better things to bring to market. I see RU as a bandaid. It will never work as well as constant DHT inhib provided by finasteride. You are trying to perfectly dissolve, apply, and get the RU to attach to the receptors around the follicle and competitively inhibit DHT/T, you're fighting a constant stream of DHT replenished by blood so it's hard to compete. You must applying perfectly every day or 2x day to really get max effect. Even CB is probably better than RU both at competing for the androgen receptor and reduced side effects, its just too expensive and hard to get for most people.

Don't get me wrong, if RU gives me good results (hasn't happened yet) I will happily use it for the coming years, but I'm really waiting for oral solutions like CRTH2 antagonists like seti for maintenence combined with like 1-2 topicals and treatments like histogen, minoxidil, and maybe CB . Hopefully someday soon we can stop using Anti androgens, but it will probably be a while.

Meanwhile, a majority of people can probably use oral finasteride/dutasteride with no sides and get better results than all of the above so the market isn't clamoring for better treatments.

 

[Clearingout]

Just a side question, does anyone use the kb solution? Do you add anything to it? I feel as though it dries to quick.

 

[Prada1]

I didn't claim that the accountants made the right decision.

Also, the market has changed relative to fifteen years ago, clearly. There are lots of companies working on baldness now. I can't tell you why it's changed.

Whatever company currently owns the patent to RU 58851 might not even realize that it owns the patent. There might be nobody at the company bringing it up and saying "let's commercialize this". It's nobody's baby. Anybody who developed it and worked on it in the 1990s has long moved on.

Ahhh maybe that could explain i if someone has the patent on it.