Curis, P&g, And The Lost Baldness Cure

[pegasus2]

this doesn’t make any sense to me, if you looked through my post I’m the least Nazi person on this site, I’m always calling out their bullshit on here to no avail. I just think posting pics is good protocol.

I might share pictures with certain people over pm in a couple months when there is a more significant cosmetic difference. Right now I don't think the cosmetic difference is sufficient to bother. The observable difference is mostly limited to close up pictures for now.

In the meantime, I will just say that I believe it's working, though it took probably 3 weeks to start seeing it in close up pictures. I don't believe the dosage was high enough in my first treatment though, so I expect that in another month it will be even better after using ~1% concentration. Next time I might go even higher after I've gotten everything else that I believe will aid in the regrowth. Shipping is really slow now, but I hope to start my new protocol in about a month, and SAG will remain the center of it.

 

[Armando Jose]

That may depend on your definition of "vellus", "intermediate", and "terminal". Hairs can definitely start growing longer and thicker without shedding.

IMO you are wrong, the dermal papila adjust the thickness of hair, and tne cells of DP only change due a new hair cycle, but if yo have other information, please share. BTW, thickness is diferent from lenght, "no mezcles churras con merinas"

 

[pegasus2]

IMO you are wrong, the dermal papila adjust the thickness of hair, and tne cells of DP only change due a new hair cycle, but if yo have other information, please share. BTW, thickness is diferent from lenght, "no mezcles churras con merinas"

Ok. You have a right to your opinion, but do you have any research to prove your opinion is correct. Everyone has hair on their head that is tapered, so that alone says you are wrong. I am aware that it's a old wives tale on the forums, but like many things bandied about here it is not true. People also say gray hair can't turn dark again without falling out, but I can show you a picture of hair that is gray at the end and dark at the follicle, and I could show you pictures of a lot of hairs in my temples that are thicker at the root. I have hairs that wouldn't grow beyond 1/16th of an inch that are now growing without shedding first. Whatever you want to call these hairs they are getting both longer and thicker without shedding first.

 

[Armando Jose]

Ok. You have a right to your opinion, but do you have any research to prove your opinion is correct. Everyone has hair on their head that is tapered, so that alone says you are wrong. I am aware that it's a old wives tale on the forums, but like many things bandied about here it is not true. People also say gray hair can't turn dark again without falling out, but I can show you a picture of hair that is gray at the end and dark at the follicle, and I could show you pictures of a lot of hairs in my temples that are thicker at the root. I have hairs that wouldn't grow beyond 1/16th of an inch that are now growing without shedding first. Whatever you want to call these hairs they are getting both longer and thicker without shedding first.

Then you have good material for a paper, ...., old wives tale need a answer.

 

[pegasus2]

Then you have good material for a paper, ...., old wives tale need a answer.

Here you go, write a paper. Here's on my crown

And my temple

 

[LowHairLine]

Re: PROGRESS PICS

I might share pictures with certain people over pm in a couple months when there is a more significant cosmetic difference.

Happy to hear you consider sharing your results:
I'm very intersted in what you are doing, respect the risks you are taking & wish you all the best with your results.

Here you go, write a paper. Here's on my crown

Thank you - this is approximately what I was talking about, yes:
I don't think people can identify you in any way, shape or form based on such pictures, yet B/As can still clearly show if a treatment is working.

If you want, you can further anonymize them by:
- removing chroma (i.e. B&W), which does not convey much in term of regrowth yet gives away your skin and hair colour;
- apply perspective transformations to skew any facial features
etc.

I feel the shots can even cover a bit more area & provide more cosmetic gain feeling while still not giving away anything about you, but I wilp not try to convince you about that:

the type of pics you have posted with marked reference points are already orders of magnitude better than words alone - so thanks again for them...

 

[LowHairLine]

Everyone has hair on their head that is tapered, so that alone says you are wrong...
People also say gray hair can't turn dark again without falling out, but I can show you a picture of hair that is gray at the end and dark at the follicle, and I could show you pictures of a lot of hairs in my temples that are thicker at the root. I have hairs that wouldn't grow beyond 1/16th of an inch that are now growing without shedding first. Whatever you want to call these hairs they are getting both longer and thicker without shedding first.

THICKER / LONGER / PIGMENTED HAIR w/o SHED
I can confirm all of the above based on my Wounding+Min results, and can provide pics on request to support some of these claims.

 

[pegasus2]

I’ve been sent some information from the private forum regarding the SHH trial. I have copied the information in order. My reactions and questions are below.

2013, Thread Name: THE HHAG story
1st user:
Gather round the fire ye balding children I shall tell you the story of the sonic hedgehog.
So one day a brave and foolish guy called jimbo threw all caution to the wind and plunged in head first. Eight weeks later he went from left to right (!):

It works, it works it, works! ... Doesn't it? 'Yes but it's more of a booster', Jimbo said. No it clearly does, look at your hair! everyone replied. And from there it was a constant battle between Jimbo telling people that it works but doesn't really grow new hair and people telling him that it does grow hair. Odd, normally it's the other way around.

Spurned by follicle greed and wanting to solve the mystery two other idiots bit the bullet and tested it themselves. I'm one of those idiots and I think I've solved at least a few of the question marks hanging in the air.

Just like Jimbo I used it for two months, once a week, same vehicle, same dosage. I was expecting new hairs but there were none to be seen, neither vellus nor terminals. But then something weird happened. Instead of styling my hair for ten minutes in the morning it didn't even take me one, the hair seemed just right. And then the comments started:

Girl I'm dating: "Your hair looks really thick lately, have you done something to it?"
Male friend: "Something about you looks different"
Family member: "Last time I saw you I was thinking you're losing your hair but I must've been wrong."
NW3 guy at work in a group conversation: "My hair is going to sh*t, we can't all be blessed like xxxxxx over here."

My hair did look fuller, denser and thicker. But there were NO new hairs. How can that be? The theoretics of embryonal follice formation stimulation through SMO new hair growth didn't seem to work, at least not at 8 weeks and at that dosage. But something did make my hair look significantly better, at least temporarily. Two weeks after cessation my hair reverted back to how it was before, thinner. This rules out a change to the follicles themselves as I would've had to shed the hair to see it get worse, yet it got worse without a shed. That leaves only one conclusion, that hhag somehow temporarily blows up the hair thickness. A good visual comparison for this is toppik (aka hair in a can) which will make you look like you've got more hair than you do too. A more accurate comparison would be a hair thickener or volumizer althought these will never get you the results that I saw on my head.

And this is how (and why) I think that jimbo kept insisting that is 'more of a booster', despite it clearly 'working'. Because it does work, but it also does not.

2nd user:
For those that don't know, I'm one of the other fools who bought and tested this stuff. Back in August, I applied this at a concentration of roughly 0.3 % (a bit lower than Jimbo's and xxxxxxx) - at the time, I was going through the worst shed of my life (had to take sleeping pills at one point, the itch was *that* bad). Got my HHAg, applied it on a Wednesday and the following Monday... Itch was completely gone after 2 days or so, and a week after the first application my hair in the male pattern baldness region was as thick as the hair in the donor region (I'm a diffuse thinner so for me this was da bomb).

Anyway, just like xxxx, about a week after the last application hair went back to normal without a shed. So last Monday I thought about trying a lower concentration to see if it still had an effect - I used 0.15% and guess what, it worked just as well as the higher dosage.

0.2 mg of this stuff are enough to fully reverse miniaturization of existing hairs after 4/5 days. f*** me, this sh*t is potent.

While it's working my scalp feels exacly like it felt pre male pattern baldness (I don't even know it's there, itch is non existent).To be honest this sh*t scares me and I'd only use it long term if there was no alternative, but it's amazing to watch your hair turn super thick in a matter of a few days, it's like magic. Then it goes to crap just as quick, but still... 0.2 mg, f*****g hell.

Curis was testing several different mollecules, 1.5 being the most powerful and 1.7 (if I'm not mistaken) the least toxic. They used 1.7 in the mice study and it had a local effect only - hair only grew at the site of application and there was no systemic activity. They had two programs at the time: hedgehog agonists (focused on hair) and hedgehog antagonists (for cancer). The agonists program was shelved because the safety profile wasn't favourable, especially considering male pattern baldness is a cosmetic issue (lol). That's about it, there's not a lot of info, sadly.

It's still by far the most amazing thing I've used, though. And yeah, considering that 2 mg cost $140 and would last at least 10 weeks (probably even more) and you only need to apply it once a week, it truly would be the perfect hairloss treatment.

Fast forward from 2013 to:
2020, Thread Name: Hair growth-promoting effect of recombinant human sonic hedgehog proteins - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s41702-019-0047-x

1st user:
We have a few old threads around (referring to the one I posted above) on this stuff and have bought an SHH1 agonist in a GB. Me and xxxxxx can confirm it works like magic. But like magic it is hard to explain:

· It stops hair loss dead. I don't remember losing anything while I tried it.

· It does not regrow hair in bald areas.

· It creates a magical effect of hair fullness.

o What do I mean by this? For xxxxx who is a diffuse thinner it seemed SOMEHOW to have increased his overall hair density. For me who had strong temple loss it somehow allowed me to fully and easily cover my bare temples with long hair. Something I had struggled before but on SHH1 just worked. Keep in mind, I don't think I grew new hair. The only explanation I can think of is that it indefinitely prolonged anagen? It's a weird cosmetic effect that set in VERY quickly and eventually waned off a bit slower upon cessation.

2nd user:
Correct. At the dosages I tried it only worked while addressing DHT (RU or finasteride at the time) and there was no difference between lower and higher dosages, takes very little of the stuff to see results.

1 single application and within 2 days my hair became darker and ridiculously thick (and I mean that). The effects were visible for 3-4 days, I think.

1st user:
To be fair the agonist we used was somewhat unselective which was the main reason I was cautious. More selective agonists would be a lot more safe.




So the first guy it looks like his hair is thinner in the crown, but that's the angle. Even with the worse angle the front looks considerably better in only two months.

These guys imo got some good results, but what they say doesn't add up. It doesn't make your hair darker and thicker in 2 days, and the results don't go away after 3-4 days without a shed. There was a powerful placebo effect going on there. It takes time to work just like any other treatment. These guys seem to think that it thickens the hair that is already grown out which it does not. It initiates anagen and increases proliferation, thickening existing hairs at the root. It takes weeks for them to grow out so that it's visible. It takes several days after the initial dose before markers of shh activation rise, and at least ten days before GLI2 expression peaks. As long as androgens are under control this thing should keep upregulating shh activity for well over a week after one dose.

The second user tried different concentrations. He says he used .3% and then .15% the next time, but he also seems to say the second time was .2mg. If he used 1ml that's actually only .02%. So did he use around .03% then .02%? Probably.

The molecule used in the Curis murine study was actually 1.8. I don't know where he got the information that it's the least toxic? It's logical that it is, but I haven't seen that information. I think it's likely similar in potency to 1.5.

The next group titled their thread shh proteins, but I think they used a smoothened agonist? I'm not sure why they would choose to go with recombinant proteins versus a smoothened agonist. It's less effective at inducing GLI1/2 activity, and probably more expensive and risky, with greater difficulty of transdermal delivery. If that's what they did perhaps they would care to chime in if there's some advantage to recombinant proteins that I'm missing here?

The first group seems to have used SAG(HHAG 1.3), but they could have used 1.2(similar potency). I doubt they used 1.1 as it's far too weak to have made an impact at that dose, and there is clear improvement in that picture. The second group probably either used SAG or purmorphamine.

So, what does this tell us? Even a SAG dose of .02% is effective. I think this is the absolute lowest end of effective concentrations though. You'll do much better with a concentration of .2% or higher.

None of these guys microneedled apparently, and they all claimed to only thicken existing hairs. SHH activation has recently been shown to induce neogenesis without wounding, but I wouldn't expect that to happen to a great degree, especially not at such a low dosage. With microneedling you will have a much greater rate of neogenesis, but you probably increase your risk of skin cancer too.

 

[pegasus2]

Re: PROGRESS PICS
I feel the shots can even cover a bit more area & provide more cosmetic gain feeling while still not giving away anything about you, but I wilp not try to convince you about that:

the type of pics you have posted with marked reference points are already orders of magnitude better than words alone - so thanks again for them...

I don't know if I should do that. If people saw that it might lead to more people trying this. I don't want people to get cancer.

 

[Photon]

I’ve been sent some information from the private forum regarding the SHH trial. I have copied the information in order. My reactions and questions are below.

2013, Thread Name: THE HHAG story
1st user:
Gather round the fire ye balding children I shall tell you the story of the sonic hedgehog.
So one day a brave and foolish guy called jimbo threw all caution to the wind and plunged in head first. Eight weeks later he went from left to right (!):

View attachment 141755

It works, it works it, works! ... Doesn't it? 'Yes but it's more of a booster', Jimbo said. No it clearly does, look at your hair! everyone replied. And from there it was a constant battle between Jimbo telling people that it works but doesn't really grow new hair and people telling him that it does grow hair. Odd, normally it's the other way around.

Spurned by follicle greed and wanting to solve the mystery two other idiots bit the bullet and tested it themselves. I'm one of those idiots and I think I've solved at least a few of the question marks hanging in the air.

Just like Jimbo I used it for two months, once a week, same vehicle, same dosage. I was expecting new hairs but there were none to be seen, neither vellus nor terminals. But then something weird happened. Instead of styling my hair for ten minutes in the morning it didn't even take me one, the hair seemed just right. And then the comments started:

Girl I'm dating: "Your hair looks really thick lately, have you done something to it?"
Male friend: "Something about you looks different"
Family member: "Last time I saw you I was thinking you're losing your hair but I must've been wrong."
NW3 guy at work in a group conversation: "My hair is going to sh*t, we can't all be blessed like xxxxxx over here."

My hair did look fuller, denser and thicker. But there were NO new hairs. How can that be? The theoretics of embryonal follice formation stimulation through SMO new hair growth didn't seem to work, at least not at 8 weeks and at that dosage. But something did make my hair look significantly better, at least temporarily. Two weeks after cessation my hair reverted back to how it was before, thinner. This rules out a change to the follicles themselves as I would've had to shed the hair to see it get worse, yet it got worse without a shed. That leaves only one conclusion, that hhag somehow temporarily blows up the hair thickness. A good visual comparison for this is toppik (aka hair in a can) which will make you look like you've got more hair than you do too. A more accurate comparison would be a hair thickener or volumizer althought these will never get you the results that I saw on my head.

And this is how (and why) I think that jimbo kept insisting that is 'more of a booster', despite it clearly 'working'. Because it does work, but it also does not.

2nd user:
For those that don't know, I'm one of the other fools who bought and tested this stuff. Back in August, I applied this at a concentration of roughly 0.3 % (a bit lower than Jimbo's and xxxxxxx) - at the time, I was going through the worst shed of my life (had to take sleeping pills at one point, the itch was *that* bad). Got my HHAg, applied it on a Wednesday and the following Monday... Itch was completely gone after 2 days or so, and a week after the first application my hair in the male pattern baldness region was as thick as the hair in the donor region (I'm a diffuse thinner so for me this was da bomb).

Anyway, just like xxxx, about a week after the last application hair went back to normal without a shed. So last Monday I thought about trying a lower concentration to see if it still had an effect - I used 0.15% and guess what, it worked just as well as the higher dosage.

0.2 mg of this stuff are enough to fully reverse miniaturization of existing hairs after 4/5 days. f*** me, this sh*t is potent.

While it's working my scalp feels exacly like it felt pre male pattern baldness (I don't even know it's there, itch is non existent).To be honest this sh*t scares me and I'd only use it long term if there was no alternative, but it's amazing to watch your hair turn super thick in a matter of a few days, it's like magic. Then it goes to crap just as quick, but still... 0.2 mg, f*****g hell.

Curis was testing several different mollecules, 1.5 being the most powerful and 1.7 (if I'm not mistaken) the least toxic. They used 1.7 in the mice study and it had a local effect only - hair only grew at the site of application and there was no systemic activity. They had two programs at the time: hedgehog agonists (focused on hair) and hedgehog antagonists (for cancer). The agonists program was shelved because the safety profile wasn't favourable, especially considering male pattern baldness is a cosmetic issue (lol). That's about it, there's not a lot of info, sadly.

It's still by far the most amazing thing I've used, though. And yeah, considering that 2 mg cost $140 and would last at least 10 weeks (probably even more) and you only need to apply it once a week, it truly would be the perfect hairloss treatment.

Fast forward from 2013 to:
2020, Thread Name: Hair growth-promoting effect of recombinant human sonic hedgehog proteins - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s41702-019-0047-x

1st user:
We have a few old threads around (referring to the one I posted above) on this stuff and have bought an SHH1 agonist in a GB. Me and xxxxxx can confirm it works like magic. But like magic it is hard to explain:

· It stops hair loss dead. I don't remember losing anything while I tried it.

· It does not regrow hair in bald areas.

· It creates a magical effect of hair fullness.

o What do I mean by this? For xxxxx who is a diffuse thinner it seemed SOMEHOW to have increased his overall hair density. For me who had strong temple loss it somehow allowed me to fully and easily cover my bare temples with long hair. Something I had struggled before but on SHH1 just worked. Keep in mind, I don't think I grew new hair. The only explanation I can think of is that it indefinitely prolonged anagen? It's a weird cosmetic effect that set in VERY quickly and eventually waned off a bit slower upon cessation.

2nd user:
Correct. At the dosages I tried it only worked while addressing DHT (RU or finasteride at the time) and there was no difference between lower and higher dosages, takes very little of the stuff to see results.

1 single application and within 2 days my hair became darker and ridiculously thick (and I mean that). The effects were visible for 3-4 days, I think.

1st user:
To be fair the agonist we used was somewhat unselective which was the main reason I was cautious. More selective agonists would be a lot more safe.




So the first guy it looks like his hair is thinner in the crown, but that's the angle. Even with the worse angle the front looks considerably better in only two months.

These guys imo got some good results, but what they say doesn't add up. It doesn't make your hair darker and thicker in 2 days, and the results don't go away after 3-4 days without a shed. There was a powerful placebo effect going on there. It takes time to work just like any other treatment. These guys seem to think that it thickens the hair that is already grown out which it does not. It initiates anagen and increases proliferation, thickening existing hairs at the root. It takes weeks for them to grow out so that it's visible. It takes several days after the initial dose before markers of shh activation rise, and at least ten days before GLI2 expression peaks. As long as androgens are under control this thing should keep upregulating shh activity for well over a week after one dose.

The second user tried different concentrations. He says he used .3% and then .15% the next time, but he also seems to say the second time was .2mg. If he used 1ml that's actually only .02%. So did he use around .03% then .02%? Probably.

The molecule used in the Curis murine study was actually 1.8. I don't know where he got the information that it's the least toxic? It's logical that it is, but I haven't seen that information. I think it's likely similar in potency to 1.5.

The next group titled their thread shh proteins, but I think they used a smoothened agonist? I'm not sure why they would choose to go with recombinant proteins versus a smoothened agonist. It's less effective at inducing GLI1/2 activity, and probably more expensive and risky, with greater difficulty of transdermal delivery. If that's what they did perhaps they would care to chime in if there's some advantage to recombinant proteins that I'm missing here?

The first group seems to have used SAG(HHAG 1.3), but they could have used 1.2(similar potency). I doubt they used 1.1 as it's far too weak to have made an impact at that dose, and there is clear improvement in that picture. The second group probably either used SAG or purmorphamine.

So, what does this tell us? Even a SAG dose of .02% is effective. I think this is the absolute lowest end of effective concentrations though. You'll do much better with a concentration of .2% or higher.

None of these guys microneedled apparently, and they all claimed to only thicken existing hairs. SHH activation has recently been shown to induce neogenesis without wounding, but I wouldn't expect that to happen to a great degree, especially not at such a low dosage. With microneedling you will have a much greater rate of neogenesis, but you probably increase your risk of skin cancer too.

Awesome research. It's good news that we don't need much of this stuff because it can get expensive and out of reach for a lot of people.

I would like to see some experimentation with wounding because I'm sure we will see the biggest growth, but might be too risky. Then again, users here are that desperate, so we will see.

 

[shadowcast]

Perception of yourself is not reliable. You can’t trust description of how this treatment works/doesn’t work. I see no change in the photo from the other forum posted above. Without pics this thread will be useless. Another footnote in the mythology of hair loss cures.

 

[pegasus2]

Awesome research. It's good news that we don't need much of this stuff because it can get expensive and out of reach for a lot of people.

I would like to see some experimentation with wounding because I'm sure we will see the biggest growth, but might be too risky. Then again, users here are that desperate, so we will see.

I did wound before applying it. Afterwards I waited month to heal before wounding again and then applying another dose. I'll do it again in another month if I'm still alive. I'm honestly a little freaked out by the last pictures I took. My skin is really dark at the center of my hairline and my right temple. It just looks like melanocytes are proliferating like crazy.

 

[pegasus2]

Perception of yourself is not reliable. You can’t trust description of how this treatment works/doesn’t work. I see no change in the photo from the other forum posted above. Without pics this thread will be useless. Another footnote in the mythology of hair loss cures.

Well then why don't you try it yourself hoss? That guy on the other forum obviously had some thickening in the front.

 

[John Difool]

Awesome research. It's good news that we don't need much of this stuff because it can get expensive and out of reach for a lot of people.

I would like to see some experimentation with wounding because I'm sure we will see the biggest growth, but might be too risky. Then again, users here are that desperate, so we will see.

I am doing microneedling and sag application fortnightly till I get something. So far some hair have popped up. I used 20mg of SAG applied to scalp after Follica protocol. Crossing fingers.

 

[Photon]

I am doing microneedling and sag application fortnightly till I get something. So far some hair have popped up. I used 20mg of SAG applied to scalp after Follica protocol. Crossing fingers.

Is your skin also getting dark? I'm wondering if this can be used for people with Vitiligo.

I did wound before applying it. Afterwards I waited month to heal before wounding again and then applying another dose. I'll do it again in another month if I'm still alive. I'm honestly a little freaked out by the last pictures I took. My skin is really dark at the center of my hairline and my right temple. It just looks like melanocytes are proliferating like crazy.

If your skin gets darker, will you consider getting a biopsy?

 

[John Difool]

My skin is not getting darker at this time.

 

[pegasus2]

It's not cancer. I saw the same kind of thing from microneedling where I was gettting regrowth on the crown.

 

[Shaktipat44]

I'm not posting anymore pictures on here.

> steals private forum pictures of other people and makes them public
> complains when people ask him to put up his own pictures

 

[pegasus2]

> steals private forum pictures of other people and makes them public
> complains when people ask him to put up his own pictures

I didn't steal them. If I show you something will you promise not to try this at home?

I'll give you a teaser. My temple end of Oct, then at the start of April. It started to come alive during that time. What did adding SAG + estriol 2x/day to my regimen do over the next month? Probably nothing according to shadowcast and fgsfds.



Edit: Ok, here is the post-SAG pic

 

[Armando Jose]

Here you go, write a paper. Here's on my crown
View attachment 141722
And my temple
View attachment 141723

Hi pegasus2, thank you for the offer but I have not time for vellus hairs, but you can talk with beps63 because he have similar idea/result
"The vellus I was born transparent, brings forth the "blond" and bigger.
I have many vellus with dark base and the clear part of the terminal.
Those slightly bigger although very thin, are larger than the vellus "blonde", but totally dark (brown)
This happens in both the Vertex is trai hair of the frontal zone, where there are a part of normal hair and at least three times vellus at various stages. "
https://imgur.com/a/pC8kW

Good luck