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Please use this thread to discuss the findings of the new Revivogen Study.
Any thoughts Bryan?
Any thoughts Bryan?
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First off I want to make this clear, since someone has already implied it, that I have no reason to believe that this study is a lie, or fake, or that its results were bribed. Some of you guys confound the heck out of me with these attitudes. If you google "hair loss" right now you are going to get bombarded by literally hundreds of blatant, in your face snake oils that have entire websites filled with lies, fake data, fake ingredients, and fake user reviews. Hundreds. Yet you're going to take one of the 4 or 5 logical, potentially helpful treatments out there, out of literally HUNDREDS of scam treatments, and act suspicious? I don't understand the mentality and I never will. At least these guys are trying. At least they're putting an honest effort out to find ingredients that might actually help. That much we know is a solid fact about Revivogen. Find me another product anywhere on that Google search result page that has an ounce of the data or logic or honesty put into it that Revivogen has. Some of you guys are so open minded about everything under the sun but you scoff at things that have data backing them, and it confounds me to pieces.
That being said, I have no bias regarding this study whatsoever. Im about to sit down myself and read it right now for the first time, and try to digest what is said. I have emailed the makers of Revivogen to ask them for a laypersons translation of it, but I have a feeling as soon as Bryan shows up, we'll get one anyways. The point? We're all in this together and it sure would help if you guys could keep some perspective on where to put your pessimism and where to put your optimism. I can count on one hand the number of treatments that are worthy of some optimism and trust, and Revivogen is one of them. Im not prepared to piss that away and group them in with all the liars out there. They are one of the only companies out there who are actually trying to come up with something that helps. They deserve our support, until they do something dishonest, and in 8 years the guys at Revivogen have done nothing but shown themselves to be honest to me. Until that changes, they have my confidence.
As for the study? Let it stand on its own merits, the merits and reputation of the testing facility, and the methods and data collected. We dont have to agree with eachother, but lets at least put intelligent thought and facts before conjecture, pessimism, and conspiracy theories.
Commence critical analysis of said study...
That being said, I have no bias regarding this study whatsoever. Im about to sit down myself and read it right now for the first time, and try to digest what is said. I have emailed the makers of Revivogen to ask them for a laypersons translation of it, but I have a feeling as soon as Bryan shows up, we'll get one anyways. The point? We're all in this together and it sure would help if you guys could keep some perspective on where to put your pessimism and where to put your optimism. I can count on one hand the number of treatments that are worthy of some optimism and trust, and Revivogen is one of them. Im not prepared to piss that away and group them in with all the liars out there. They are one of the only companies out there who are actually trying to come up with something that helps. They deserve our support, until they do something dishonest, and in 8 years the guys at Revivogen have done nothing but shown themselves to be honest to me. Until that changes, they have my confidence.
As for the study? Let it stand on its own merits, the merits and reputation of the testing facility, and the methods and data collected. We dont have to agree with eachother, but lets at least put intelligent thought and facts before conjecture, pessimism, and conspiracy theories.
Commence critical analysis of said study...
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Alright so in a nutshell, Finasteride, when applied topically to an artificial human scalp (the scientifically accepted equivilent) which had been drenched in Testosterode and 5-alpha reductase, and had been allowed to naturally form into DHT .... was treated topically with Finasteride, Dutasteride, and Revivogen.
The Finasteride, after a period of time inhibited the presence of DHT by 67%.
The Dutasteride, after a period of time inhibited the presence of DHT by 80% and 86% depending on dose.
The compounds in the Revivogen formula inhibited the presence of DHT by 90%.
Some questions come to mind that I would want to be clear on first:
1) Were the doses reasonably equivilent to real life doses in all three examples, or were the finasteride and dutasteride lower than one might expect if it is flowing through a bloodstream?
This can be answered by anyone who can understand the numbers on the PDF. That does not include me.
2) Were all three allowed to "soak" for the same amount of time?
Might or might not be answered in the PDF. Its midnight right now and I am too lazy to check again.
3) What is the background / reputation of "BA" BioAlternatives testing facility?
The answer can be seen here, and it looks like they are 1000% legitimate: http://www.bioalternatives.com/
"BIOalternatives Pharmaceutic department provides in vitro services for preclinical research (screening and mechanistic assays) in the fields of neurobiology (neuronal degenerative diseases, pain...), skin pathology, inflammation & immunomodulation. BIOalternatives is a service company offering cell-based assays to support drug and healthcare product development. With more than 10 years of experience, BIOalternatives provides customized informative biological solutions to >200 companies worldwide"
4) Will this study be peer reviewed and published?
Answerable only by Revivogen.
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The Finasteride, after a period of time inhibited the presence of DHT by 67%.
The Dutasteride, after a period of time inhibited the presence of DHT by 80% and 86% depending on dose.
The compounds in the Revivogen formula inhibited the presence of DHT by 90%.
Some questions come to mind that I would want to be clear on first:
1) Were the doses reasonably equivilent to real life doses in all three examples, or were the finasteride and dutasteride lower than one might expect if it is flowing through a bloodstream?
This can be answered by anyone who can understand the numbers on the PDF. That does not include me.
2) Were all three allowed to "soak" for the same amount of time?
Might or might not be answered in the PDF. Its midnight right now and I am too lazy to check again.
3) What is the background / reputation of "BA" BioAlternatives testing facility?
The answer can be seen here, and it looks like they are 1000% legitimate: http://www.bioalternatives.com/
"BIOalternatives Pharmaceutic department provides in vitro services for preclinical research (screening and mechanistic assays) in the fields of neurobiology (neuronal degenerative diseases, pain...), skin pathology, inflammation & immunomodulation. BIOalternatives is a service company offering cell-based assays to support drug and healthcare product development. With more than 10 years of experience, BIOalternatives provides customized informative biological solutions to >200 companies worldwide"
4) Will this study be peer reviewed and published?
Answerable only by Revivogen.
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Will someone please post a link to the PDF?
And just so everyone knows, Revivogen does contain the free fatty acids ALA, LNA, and GLA. I don't know how much of each. But there have been many independent studies showing that these free fatty acids (not oils) can topically inhibit 5ar1, which converts testosterone to DHT in sebum glands. They inhibit 5ar2 to a lesser extent. But the more DHT production is stopped, the less spill over you have, and the more scalp testosterone you have to make into estrogen, which can reverse balding.
And just so everyone knows, Revivogen does contain the free fatty acids ALA, LNA, and GLA. I don't know how much of each. But there have been many independent studies showing that these free fatty acids (not oils) can topically inhibit 5ar1, which converts testosterone to DHT in sebum glands. They inhibit 5ar2 to a lesser extent. But the more DHT production is stopped, the less spill over you have, and the more scalp testosterone you have to make into estrogen, which can reverse balding.
The first flaw I think I see in this study is the delivery vehicle for the finasteride and dutasteride are 1% ethanol, 99% water, whereas the revivogen is in it's retain solution. I thought, at least for spironolactone, which is also a steroid, propylene glycol or some other penetration enhansor is needed for best effect. But since inhibition did occur, maybe their vehicle was OK.
I'm also amazed at how finasteride inhibited so much DHT, when 5ar1 accounts for 2/3 of scalp DHT. That makes me wonder.
I'm also amazed at how finasteride inhibited so much DHT, when 5ar1 accounts for 2/3 of scalp DHT. That makes me wonder.
Molecular weight of finasteride: 372g
http://www.seqchem.com/safetysheet.php? ... =SRP00500f
10^-6 M = 0.000001 M = 0.000001 moles per litter
1000g = 1kg, 1 liter of water = 1kg
So
0.000001x372g finasteride/ 1000g of solution
= 372x 10^-9 = 0.372ppm
and that is the topical, since they even say how they diluted it. I'm amazed this inhibited any 5ar at all!
http://www.seqchem.com/safetysheet.php? ... =SRP00500f
10^-6 M = 0.000001 M = 0.000001 moles per litter
1000g = 1kg, 1 liter of water = 1kg
So
0.000001x372g finasteride/ 1000g of solution
= 372x 10^-9 = 0.372ppm
and that is the topical, since they even say how they diluted it. I'm amazed this inhibited any 5ar at all!
serum concentration:
dutasteride: 33 ng/mL (bryan said 40 in the study)
finasteride: 7 ng/mL
that translates to 33 and 7 x 10^-9, which is 0.033 and 0.007 ppm.
So the concentrations in this study are much higher than those of pills. No wonder so much scalp DHT production was inhibited.
dutasteride: 33 ng/mL (bryan said 40 in the study)
finasteride: 7 ng/mL
that translates to 33 and 7 x 10^-9, which is 0.033 and 0.007 ppm.
So the concentrations in this study are much higher than those of pills. No wonder so much scalp DHT production was inhibited.
revivogen even reduced scalp testosterone. i wonder if it turned it to estrogen. i wish they would have tested for estrogen levels too.
maybe I'll buy some calcium oxide and magnesium oxide catalysts, make my 60 degree bath, and break apart some borageseed oil.
maybe I'll buy some calcium oxide and magnesium oxide catalysts, make my 60 degree bath, and break apart some borageseed oil.
Are fatty acids separated and synthesized in the skin, or elsewhere? Docj077? Bubka?
Maybe male pattern baldness is a result of the scalp's inability to synthesize GLA and break apart triglycerides. This leads to up regulation of 5ar and down regulation of aromatase. I know that old people can't sythesize GLA as well. But male pattern baldness by is mostly a bad androgen receptor, so the GLA theory does not explain that.
Maybe male pattern baldness is a result of the scalp's inability to synthesize GLA and break apart triglycerides. This leads to up regulation of 5ar and down regulation of aromatase. I know that old people can't sythesize GLA as well. But male pattern baldness by is mostly a bad androgen receptor, so the GLA theory does not explain that.
I've been saying this for years about Revivogen, in its defense.
If it IS a scam, it is the messiest, smelliest scam out there. Think about it, if the stuff was useless, then wouldn't the manufacturers make it more cosmetically acceptable? I believe a big problem with Revivogen users is consistency. Company over? Forget using it. Girlfriend? NO WAY. If they were scamming you they would add lovely bits of panthenol for body and such. They wouldn't make it seem as though an emu squatted on your head. this makes me abelieve that the product actually contains the tested ingredients they claim it contains.
The final thing is that I believe because it is a TOPICAL treatment it somehow gets lumped in with Minoxidil, which can often produce regrowth in as little as two months. Revivogen should be lumped in with finasteride (because it is a 5ar inhibitor) in which up to and over a YEAR should be expected for results to occur.
My 2 cents. I think the stuff is legit, but it's a mess to apply and wash out.
Oh yeah one more thing, I did a Yahoo search on Revivogen a few months back where people rated their experiences with customer service with the company, NOT the product. There was something like 400 comments, and people commented on the product frequently anyway. The majority praised it and said they had been using it for years.
If it IS a scam, it is the messiest, smelliest scam out there. Think about it, if the stuff was useless, then wouldn't the manufacturers make it more cosmetically acceptable? I believe a big problem with Revivogen users is consistency. Company over? Forget using it. Girlfriend? NO WAY. If they were scamming you they would add lovely bits of panthenol for body and such. They wouldn't make it seem as though an emu squatted on your head. this makes me abelieve that the product actually contains the tested ingredients they claim it contains.
The final thing is that I believe because it is a TOPICAL treatment it somehow gets lumped in with Minoxidil, which can often produce regrowth in as little as two months. Revivogen should be lumped in with finasteride (because it is a 5ar inhibitor) in which up to and over a YEAR should be expected for results to occur.
My 2 cents. I think the stuff is legit, but it's a mess to apply and wash out.
Oh yeah one more thing, I did a Yahoo search on Revivogen a few months back where people rated their experiences with customer service with the company, NOT the product. There was something like 400 comments, and people commented on the product frequently anyway. The majority praised it and said they had been using it for years.
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I hope my posts in this thread don't discourage people from expressing disagreeing thoughts on this study. Im not interested in making everyone agree. In fact i pretty much can't stand that. Just avoid crazy conspiracy theories and global generalizations that sacrifice basic rules of logic. All opinions are welcome here.
To respond to the question above, I was using Revivogen and spironolactone but I have extremely sensitive skin, and it irritated me. I have always been allergic to food coloring and had reactions when things like blueberry or grape, etc. .. and the exact same thing happened when i applied (most likely the GrapeseedExtract) to my scalp. So Ive pretty much just been doing spironolactone twice a day for awhile now.
By the way - Good point on the comment above that if they were just trying to make a buck, they would have made a formulation that is more aesthetically appealing.
To respond to the question above, I was using Revivogen and spironolactone but I have extremely sensitive skin, and it irritated me. I have always been allergic to food coloring and had reactions when things like blueberry or grape, etc. .. and the exact same thing happened when i applied (most likely the GrapeseedExtract) to my scalp. So Ive pretty much just been doing spironolactone twice a day for awhile now.
By the way - Good point on the comment above that if they were just trying to make a buck, they would have made a formulation that is more aesthetically appealing.