Do you believe in reincarnation?

[s.a.f]

Infact theres probably nothing on earth thats causes more misguided pain and suffering than religion.

Children condemned to death for witchcraft or demonic possesion in Africa, women (many what you would consider underage) forced into marriages or female circusicion. Honor killings ... the list is endless.

But if we all are mere animals living in a strictly physical worlld than why would any of that be wrong? We know that it is wrong because something sets us apart from animals.....

Yes, as I said its a higher intelligence that has allowed us as a society to develop a sense of social acceptance.

 

[GeminiX]

Infact theres probably nothing on earth thats causes more misguided pain and suffering than religion.

Children condemned to death for witchcraft or demonic possesion in Africa, women (many what you would consider underage) forced into marriages or female circusicion. Honor killings ... the list is endless.

But if we all are mere animals living in a strictly physical worlld than why would any of that be wrong? We know that it is wrong because something sets us apart from animals.....

We know it's wrong because our culture and society says it is, because the bible says it is, and because our laws which have evolved over thousands of years say it is.

It's just cultural evolution and what we are taught as we grow up, nothing to do with mystical forces.

 

[GeminiX]

But you just claimed that ALL humans inheritley know its wrong.

I believe that they do, you can't tell me there is a man who would not feel shame after doing that!

Despite age of consent laws, I believe that every human is born knowing that things like child rape are wrong!

I very much disagree with you here.

If you won't believe what you read and learn though, then nothing I can say will convince you

 

[s.a.f]

But you just claimed that ALL humans inheritley know its wrong.

I believe that they do, you can't tell me there is a man who would not feel shame after doing that!

Despite age of consent laws, I believe that every human is born knowing that things like child rape are wrong!

Then why is it happening?
Because some people dont have the same sense of conscious that most of us do. Same reason that some people can commit murder.
Nobody is born knowing anything we learn from whatever we experience in life.

 

[optimus prime]

Infact theres probably nothing on earth thats causes more misguided pain and suffering than religion.

Children condemned to death for witchcraft or demonic possesion in Africa, women (many what you would consider underage) forced into marriages or female circusicion. Honor killings ... the list is endless.

You could also argue the opposite. Some of the largest charities in the world are religious charities.

How much time do you spend helping the homeless? I know people at my church give them blankets, soup, rooms to sleep in. etc.

Then we have the argument of 'using religion as an excuse'. Would you say china is a peaceful nation? No religion there. Wait, their human rights record is one of the worst...they just hide it away. What is their excuse.

You could argue that the United Kingdom is getting worse to live in. England used to be a Christian country and now it is an atheist country, yet things are not improving. I would not feel comfortable letting my kids out to play alone, yet my parents did in the 1950s. So atheism does not seem to be the answer to peace...

 

[s.a.f]

Infact theres probably nothing on earth thats causes more misguided pain and suffering than religion.

Children condemned to death for witchcraft or demonic possesion in Africa, women (many what you would consider underage) forced into marriages or female circusicion. Honor killings ... the list is endless.

But if we all are mere animals living in a strictly physical worlld than why would any of that be wrong? We know that it is wrong because something sets us apart from animals.....

We know it's wrong because our culture and society says it is, because the bible says it is, and because our laws which have evolved over thousands of years say it is.

It's just cultural evolution and what we are taught as we grow up, nothing to do with mystical forces.

Exactly all these people talking about God ask yourself, if you'd grown up on some remote Island and never heard of religion or read the bible ect would you still be believing in God.

 

[GeminiX]

Nobody is born knowing anything we learn from whatever we experience in life.

That's wrong, animals have instincts that they are born with, and humans have a concept of good and evil.

All life on earth is born with instincts for survival, it's how life evolves; this has nothing what-so-ever to do with the concept of good and evil though.

If you *really* believe what you're saying though, well good luck to you; as long as you don't try to claim religious privilege because of what you believe then it probably won't harm anyone

I really should post some of the hate mail I get from "good religious people", many of whom believe I am evil and it's their right to do unpleasant things to me.

 

[optimus prime]

Exactly all these people talking about God ask yourself, if you'd grown up on some remote Island and never heard of religion or read the bible ect would you still be believing in God.

Based on history, I would say yes. Humans from all over the world have always worshipped a God of some sort. Even those like the Aztecs who never read the Bible.

 

[s.a.f]

Nobody is born knowing anything we learn from whatever we experience in life.

That's wrong, animals have instincts that they are born with, and humans have a concept of good and evil.[/quote]

Thats survival instinct like hunting ect. We were talking about moral instincts. Do you think that a fox feels moral instincts when its killing other animals, do you think that Lions and bears feel guilt when they kill cubs of their own species to prevent them from growing into competitors?

Everybodies concept of what is good and evil is on a very wide scale some people can murder without conscious whilst others wont even tell a lie.

 

[s.a.f]

[quote="s.a.f":24p9gq0v]
Exactly all these people talking about God ask yourself, if you'd grown up on some remote Island and never heard of religion or read the bible ect would you still be believing in God.

Based on history, I would say yes. Humans from all over the world have always worshipped a God of some sort. Even those like the Aztecs who never read the Bible.[/quote:24p9gq0v]

Exactly and we look back on those people as being primitive and stupid. And yet its ok for people to believe in some beardy white robed bloke sitting on a cloud watching over us all? :whistle:

 

[s.a.f]

That's wrong, animals have instincts that they are born with, and humans have a concept of good and evil.

All life on earth is born with instincts for survival, it's how life evolves; this has nothing what-so-ever to do with the concept of good and evil though.

If God doesn't exist than there is no such thing as evil, there would be nothing to dictate what is truly right and wrong, other than human perception and opinion which is often faulty and changing......

Now you've got it! :bravo:
Its that human developed perception that separates us from the rest of the animal species.
There was once a time when slavery was acceptable and many religious people were happy to keep slaves themselves.
How about the religious belief that a raped woman should be put to death because she's impure. Is that evil?

What is acceptable is ever changing for example if we're still here in a few 100 years maybe we'll think that killing animals for meat is morally evil.

 

[GeminiX]

Religous people, what does that mean exactly?

People who claim that my existence is abhorrent to their god's will, and it's written in some scripture or other that they are entitled to kill me.

These people believe they are good and just in their behaviour, yet I consider them to be evil and misguided. So right there this disproves the theory that good an evil is a universal absolute that we are simply given by divine will.

 

[optimus prime]

If God doesn't exist than there is no such thing as evil, there would be nothing to dictate what is truly right and wrong, other than human perception and opinion which is often faulty and changing......

You know, that is such a great point. If there is no God, why should I not kill humans. Without a God, the only difference between a cow and human is intelligence. So if it is ok to kill a cow then it should be ok to kill a human.

 

[GeminiX]

If God doesn't exist than there is no such thing as evil, there would be nothing to dictate what is truly right and wrong, other than human perception and opinion which is often faulty and changing......

Bang on!

 

[GeminiX]

If God doesn't exist than there is no such thing as evil, there would be nothing to dictate what is truly right and wrong, other than human perception and opinion which is often faulty and changing......

You know, that is such a great point. If there is no God, why should I not kill humans. Without a God, the only difference between a cow and human is intelligence. So if it is ok to kill a cow then it should be ok to kill a human.

Yup, and that is how the world used to be (and still is in some cultures).

 

[s.a.f]

If God doesn't exist than there is no such thing as evil, there would be nothing to dictate what is truly right and wrong, other than human perception and opinion which is often faulty and changing......

You know, that is such a great point. If there is no God, why should I not kill humans. Without a God, the only difference between a cow and human is intelligence. So if it is ok to kill a cow then it should be ok to kill a human.

There are plenty of fanatical animal right activists who believe just that.

 

[GeminiX]

Religous people, what does that mean exactly?

People who claim that my existence is abhorrent to their god's will, and it's written in some scripture or other that they are entitled to kill me.

These people believe they are good and just in their behaviour, yet I consider them to be evil and misguided. So right there this disproves the theory that good an evil is a universal absolute that we are simply given by divine will.

Those people who are threatening to kill you are obviously evil.

But they think they are good people, doing their god's will. Do you think *they* believe they are evil?

How about suicide bombers, do they think they are evil?

 

[optimus prime]

If God doesn't exist than there is no such thing as evil, there would be nothing to dictate what is truly right and wrong, other than human perception and opinion which is often faulty and changing......

You know, that is such a great point. If there is no God, why should I not kill humans. Without a God, the only difference between a cow and human is intelligence. So if it is ok to kill a cow then it should be ok to kill a human.

Yup, and that is how the world used to be (and still is in some cultures).

I'm deadly serious. If I was like you guys, not believing in God. I would not worry about killing someone. I kill animals no problem for food, if pest etc.

In my view the difference between animals and humans are souls. So if you live in a society that does not believe you are different from animals other than intellect then you cannot argue if someone kills your wife.

 

[optimus prime]

There are plenty of fanatical animal right activists who believe just that.

Doesn't sound fanatical to me. If you don't believe in God and souls, then what is the difference between you and animals other than intelligence?

What makes you better than a cow?

 

[s.a.f]

Animals don't understand the concept, because something sets us apart, that was my point! I wasn't directly comparing animal instincts to the human perception of good and evil, I was simply saying that they are born with instincts, like how to make a nest for example, and we are born with a basic understanding of what's good and evil, I don't care what you say, you would know that it was wrong to sleep with your mother, or kill your brother no matter where you were born, this knowledge is inherent!

I'm sure that there have been cultures and societies where people have slept with their mothers, and its only your life experience that would make you not kill your own brother if you're a soldier fighting a war you would'nt hesitate to kill someone elses brother. Why? simply because he's a stranger.