Doctor discusses Finasteride on radio

[slurms mackenzie]

finasteride's side effects are exagerated.
After all, DHT is not completely reduced by it.
Then, DHT really plays a major role at puberty. As you age, DHT begins to make you more harm than good ( think at prostate problems, even cancer).

You've no proof that DHT does do more harm than good because you don't know what the benefits of DHT are.

Do you know the role that alpha 5 reductase plays in the body?

And, asa a last, i think testosterone is all that matters. And T even may be increased by finasteride.

T is increased by finasteride, but it's not all that matters, do some reading on the site.

I personally take finasteride.
It is said it reduces libido: quite false,

So now you're even disagreeing with the merck studies, you should really qualify that statement with something along the lines of "That's not my experience", unless you think you represent a large enough sample size and all the studies in the world should be tailored to you.

it may be, a bit, and, so what??

Okay maybe you do agree with the merck studies.

Having sex every day is your only goal in life? Come on! I'd prefer a full head of hair than being extra-mega-super horny every minute. And, with a bald head, the libido is good for what??

Okay that's just a personal preference

It is said it makes semen watery. This is ridiculous, who analyses that?(maybe the ones who jack off every day). And, so what??

If you're not concerned about your little swimmers you might be missing the predetermined biological point of being a man.

It is said you may gain weight: nothing more false(At me), in fact, i lost some weight.

I've never heard this

It is said it produces depression, anxiety, etc. False again: i actually have less anxiety after finasteride, and i am more calm: before, i used to get nervous and overreact for minor upsets, now i don't.

Again you're taking your own experience and extrapolating it to apply to the entire male population, why is depression a listed side effect, what do you know that the FDA and Merck don't?

And finasteride is not a new drug at all. In the form of proscar, it's been available for nearly 20 years! If there were real problems with it, they would have come out in two decades, don't you think??

The problems are coming out though, there's a wealth of evidence of problems for some people, there are now a number of ongoing studies into the effects of finasteride of health.

And there are tens of millions men who took it. Even if, let's say, 10 of them remained with permanent sexual disfunction(and i don;t think there are even 10), it's an insignifiant minority!
You have more chances to die in a car crash in a year, than to be in those 10 out of 10 million!!

I don't know how you think you can come up with the numbers, for all we know finasteride has stopped more people from killing themselves than it has given permanengt sexual dysfunction

I was even shocked to read here that some user(doesn't mater who), was taking extasy along with finasteride, but blamed finasteride for his problems, and said that finasteride didn't let him "enjoy the drug". Come on, would you give 2 pennies in the stuff this kind of person writes here??

No that's silly, it probably wasn't even MDMA he bought, the quality has really gone downhill over the last few years but that's another story.

Would i value his opinion, nah i tend to value those of people who try to leave their own confirmation bias out of their postings

 

[cristi2011]

Ok, didn't say i know it all. So i'm waiting for those studies who prove that
90% of what i said is false. (even if it's perfectly true for MY CASE).
And you say DHT doesn't cause prostate problems? I remember reading there are some studies linking DHT with prostate cancer.
And what other false things did i say: isn't it true that finasteride only inhibits 60-70% of DHT?? Yes, it is, so DHT doesn't dissapear at all. And balding people probably have an excess of DHT.
And i didn't say finasteride doesn't have side effects at all, i only presented my personal case, in which there were no SIGNIFICANT ones.
I believe many people MAY have side effects, but really bad effects are very rare. Like those with permanent sexual disfunction, perhaps they are 0,0000001%.
And any medicine can have bad sides in extremely rare cases, even those trivial ones for colds, for example.
Ok, DHT may be good if you want to be a pack of muscles, and so what??
Maybe 99% are not interested in that and prefer a head of hair than bald and looking like they're gonna explode. :lol:
What i said is perfectly true, excepting the lack of sides, which i can speak only for myself. So there is not gross misinformation at all.
And you may be subjective, because you quit finasteride.

 

[Mens Rea]

Ok, didn't say i know it all. So i'm waiting for those studies who prove that
90% of what i said is false. (even if it's perfectly true for MY CASE).

Just because you tolerate less DHT doesn't mean everything you said is correct bg.

And you say DHT doesn't cause prostate problems? I remember reading there are some studies linking DHT with prostate cancer.

Yes DHT is connected to prostrate cancer as is estrogen. Many in the medical community are starting to actually believe that estrogen is a bigger player than DHT. That would actually happen to explain why is it older men who have these issues (guys who have lower DHT and higher estrogen levels).

But yes this is why proscar is a prostrate drug. It's not even really for hairloss.

And what other false things did i say: isn't it true that finasteride only inhibits 60-70% of DHT?? Yes, it is, so DHT doesn't dissapear at all. And balding people probably have an excess of DHT.

Do they? Or is it just the case that their hair follicles are too sensitive to DHT? HUGE difference.

DHT is a naturally occuring hormone and one that is vitally important in the male body. Very few people have "excess" DHT.

I believe many people MAY have side effects, but really bad effects are very rare. Like those with permanent sexual disfunction, perhaps they are 0,0000001%.

If that figure was even close to correct we wouldn't have a handful of people on here with these problems. These guys, like myself, were all regular posters on here, too. We must be a very unlucky bunch?

And any medicine can have bad sides in extremely rare cases, even those trivial ones for colds, for example.

Agreed but we're talking about finasteride and it happens to be the case that hundreds of young men swear it ruining them sexually. I am one of these guys.

Ok, DHT may be good if you want to be a pack of muscles, and so what??
Maybe 99% are not interested in that and prefer a head of hair than bald and looking like they're gonna explode. :lol:

Muscles is probably one of the only things DHT isn't that important for.

What i said is perfectly true, excepting the lack of sides, which i can speak only for myself. So there is not gross misinformation at all.
And you may be subjective, because you quit finasteride.

Yep, everyone can speak for themselves. But you have to admit, its pretty tempting for a guy who has never had a problem with finasteride to dismiss guys' that have. It's natural.

WHen i started finasteride i did realise some guys claimed these things. I believed them but personally i assumed i wouldn't be one of them. I was.

I think you'd be best served simply saying that you are having a good experience with it and leave it at that instead of getting into a scientific debate about sides...

 

[kumarhk]

Just curious, but what kind of sexual side effects are you guys experiencing? Is it the inability to maintain an erection or simply the fact that you cannot get aroused at all. In the case of the former, has anyone tried v**** or another type of ED drug to counteract the side effect of finasteride?

 

[Mens Rea]

Just curious, but what kind of sexual side effects are you guys experiencing? Is it the inability to maintain an erection or simply the fact that you cannot get aroused at all. In the case of the former, has anyone tried v**** or another type of ED drug to counteract the side effect of finasteride?

Me:

ED
Penile pain/atrophy, very obvious tissue change
Watery semen
Prostrate pain
Dry skin on my face (used to be oily)


Yes, cialis. It helps my erections alot but i cant take it too often or the effects of it diminish. It definately helps but using cialis at 25 years old and still not even being 100% is a tragic position to be in, believe me.

 

[slurms mackenzie]

Just curious, but what kind of sexual side effects are you guys experiencing? Is it the inability to maintain an erection or simply the fact that you cannot get aroused at all. In the case of the former, has anyone tried v**** or another type of ED drug to counteract the side effect of finasteride?

In my case after about 7 years into it, which is out of the reach of studies

Physically

The cessation of random boners and morning wood, in the case of the random boners i've got to admit socially that was probably a good thing morning wood not so because it's a sign that somethings wrong.

Mentally

A decrease in libido far more than is naturally, to me that was the major thing because it effects how you live your life.

I've come to this conclusion about fins effects on myself because i quit finasteride quite by accident and then noticed after the initial rebound (two weeks of horniness) and then a slump about a year later, everything starting to work just as it did before (which is nice).

Upon taking finasteride again, i then noticed the sides, so for me at the age of 36 my body afaic my body can't tolerate finasteride.

To a young whipper snapper who's got testosterone to spare, IMO if they aren't in the 2% that get instant sides they can spend a couple of years on finasteride and get some good results, all i'd ask is they honestly appraise themselves from time to time.

The only reason i bit back in the post above is because the poster seemed to think he knew it all, when the truth is none of us do, especially long term by which i mean use over 5 years

 

[cristi2011]

It's well known propecia produces a reduction in the libido, but from this to permanent impotence, "risking your health", etc, it's a loooooooooooong way.

 

[Mens Rea]

It's well known propecia produces a reduction in the libido, but from this to permanent impotence, "risking your health", etc, it's a loooooooooooong way.

The apple doesn't fall that far from the tree.

What i mnea by that is, teh mechanisms are the same. How one's body copes with these hormonal changes depends on a myraid of factors. The guy's who have a violent endoctrine crash, for instance, are ruined.

 

[Wuffer]

The big problem is that this crash has never once been observed in a clinical setting. If it does truly exist, it's unfortunate because it seems so rare, nobody will know who it's going to happen to next. There would need to be a study with 10,000 guys mapping their hormones daily to find a few that exhibit this crash.

This phenomenon may very well exist, but there are no studies to back it up, and it doesn't make sense medically for it to happen. This is the reason doctors don't accept it. However, bring them some proof, and doctors (and myself) will start to get behind it.

 

[Mens Rea]

The big problem is that this crash has never once been observed in a clinical setting. .

Yep...

If it does truly exist,

Give it a rest.

This phenomenon may very well exist, but there are no studies to back it up, and it doesn't make sense medically for it to happen.

It doesn't make sense medically?

That sounds dumb.

The truth is the medical world is miles behind where it should be in this regard. It doesn't make sense to the PEOPLE who are in medicine, but that's only due to human limitation.

If hundreds of people are telling me they crashed, i believe them. You can be a jerk and call them liars if you wish, but I know from first hand experience that current "studies" have failed me.

You say you are the scientific type of guy. Cool. But most of the best scientists are open minded. The real enterprising ones who make new discoveries, are open minded.

Real case examples are where its at anyway. THAT'S what matters. Not a piece of paper.

 

[Wuffer]

I am about as open minded as a person can get. I've read all the studies from both sides of the debate. Some of them I simply can't wrap my head around without having a medical degree, but of the ones I can actually understand, they are not concerning to me. I'm not attached to finasteride in any way whatsoever. I've said it before, but the second I see a conclusive study that shows there is a significant risk, I would come off finasteride in a heartbeat. After all, I am taking it. I have my own personal health to worry about! I want to know the facts, and I think I have done more research than 99% of people that take the drug.

I've never said this finasteride crash doesn't exist. It very well could exist. However, there is nothing that i've seen to prove that it does exist right now.

I'm very sure that many people with this crash have experienced all the symptoms that are commonly described, and suffer from long term sexual problems. However, I am not convinced that finasteride caused it. Since there are an infinite number of variables at play here, it would be very 'un-scientific' of me to take the word of someone i've never met, posting on a message board. Even if it's 2000 guys i've never met.

If it was one guy claiming this, we would all think he's insane; just because there are 2000 guys claiming it doesn't make it any more true. I don't think any of these guys are liars, I think there are 2000 guys out there with real problems. There is no evidence that finasteride caused it, other than the fact that they say it is.

I can't confirm that anyones case (including yours) is true. I'm not saying it is not true, but without knowing a medical history and the fact that every other possible cause has been ruled out by a doctor, I simply can't take it on your word that finasteride caused it.

You are right. Real case examples are where it's at. But none of the real case examples prove that finasteride caused it.

 

[Danik0226]

Some misinformation here. I have noticed only a minor drop off when on finasteride. I used to be into bodybuilding, and I have started an exercise routine to pack on the pounds again. When I'm working out, the reduction in libido is almost unnoticeable. As far as bodybuilding is concerned, DHT is of little use with the exception of some slight increase in abdominal fat. I've had some leg workouts where I feel my scalp start to itch a bit, which could be from the increased conversion of testosterone to DHT that occurs towards the end of a workout. If people were more active, I don't think they would see nearly the amount of sexual sides that they do.

There was a study done that suggested bodybuilders use finasteride because of the spikes in testosterone and dht that can occur during and after a workout. People prone to baldness may experience it sooner through anaerobic exercise.

I should also mention that I had my testosterone and dht tested last year. I was not too happy because the DHT levels were quite normal given I've been on finasteride for so long. My testosterone levels were very high. If people are having sexual side effects, it is probably those who have low levels of testosterone and their net androgenic activity is too low to support healthy sexual function.

 

[Mens Rea]

I am about as open minded as a person can get. I've read all the studies from both sides of the debate.

But yet you don't take Dr Crisler, Dr Jacobs or Dr Shippen's word for it that PFS is VERY real?

Very open minded guy, yeah.

I've said it before, but the second I see a conclusive study that shows there is a significant risk, I would come off finasteride in a heartbeat. After all, I am taking it. I have my own personal health to worry about! I want to know the facts, and I think I have done more research than 99% of people that take the drug.

Why are you one of these guys that has to have things written down on a medical journal for it to exist?

Things are rarely that black and white.

I'm a solicitor. I deal with medical negligence cases. Often in these cases there are detailed medical opinions from the best in the field. These experts all tend to contradict each other and disagree about every tangible point.

The moral of that story is obvious. In the real world, things aren't that black and white. Especially in the medical world.

Observing a "crash"...how would they even begin to do this? It's extremely difficult to document. I favour people's real life experience because at the end of the day, that is what matters most.

You might clinge on to what i've just said as some sort of what to enforce your argument when i see things aren't black and white. You shouldn't, though. The thrust of my argument is that since these medical experts can't agree on complex medical matters like this, it's doubtful any medical journal is going to be any more reliable than my, Enden's et al, own personal information that we are offering you.

In our lifetime the personal accounts are what really matters. I'm sure the medical world will get there eventually, and I've don't have a shred of doubt that finasteride is the culprit. The fact that you refuse to believe that finasteride has the capacity to cause these issues is outrageous in my opinion. It'd be understandable if finasteride didn't altar hormones. But it does and we both know how it works (well, i assume you do.)

Not to mention the European label for propecia has "permanent infertility and impotence" on the warning now. Crazy, huh?

It very well could exist.

How very "open minded" of you.

. However, I am not convinced that finasteride caused it.

I am. In most cases.

Since there are an infinite number of variables at play here,.

Yeah, but how do you explain guys 100% healthy until a few pills of propecia? Is this a complete freak coincidence?

There's about 50-100 guys on propecia who had violent sides, and subsequent crash, after literally their first few tablets.

When we're dealing with such time frames , i fail to see how your argument really stands up.

it would be very 'un-scientific' of me to take the word of someone i've never met, posting on a message board. Even if it's 2000 guys i've never met

Well, maybe you'll have yourself as a subject one day. If that even happens, good luck with your sciene, eh?

If you ever are the unfortunate, well, then you'll maybe have a very mind-opening experience about the profound limitations of modern and conventional medicine.

If it was one guy claiming this, we would all think he's insane; just because there are 2000 guys claiming it doesn't make it any more true. I don't think any of these guys are liars, I think there are 2000 guys out there with real problems. There is no evidence that finasteride caused it, other than the fact that they say it is.

You don't need to be a brain surgeon to work out the links here.

One person, yeah maybe, But legitimately in numbers is hardly something you should be questioning, is it?

I can't confirm that anyones case (including yours) is true. I'm not saying it is not true, but without knowing a medical history and the fact that every other possible cause has been ruled out by a doctor, I simply can't take it on your word that finasteride caused it.

Ofcourse you can't, but it's dangerous of you to hang on to the idea that all these guys, including myself, are wrong. Blindly ignorant, actually.

You are right. Real case examples are where it's at. But none of the real case examples prove that finasteride caused it.

How do you propose one "proves" it, then?

There are a few guys out there with as much proof as possible. They have pre and post bloods.. Not good reading.

 

[Wuffer]

Mens,

You make the exact same points over and over and I keep refuting them over and over. I'm am not convinced.

Tell you what; when either of us finds some new information (either supporting your cause or mine) lets post them and discuss. Until then, we keep going over the exact same points over and over and over.

I know you will call this a cop-out (maybe it is a little, i've been fighting a flu for the last few days and I can barely summon the energy to type out this response) but each one of your arguments have been made before, and I don't want to respond to them all again.

Not that I don't want to hear from you or anyone else, but when we keep arguing like this it's not insightful for anyone else. I hope some others will choose to chime in and shaire their thoughts.

Back to the bathroom I go.. ugh.

 

[Mens Rea]

You make the exact same points over and over and I keep refuting them over and over. I'm am not convinced.

At the end of the day, that's your perogative.

You can wait until the inevitable studies come out sure. Cool. But you are taking the drug indefinately in the interim. You are obviously therefore, emotionally connected to your conclusions. That is why you call it your "cause". You know deep down are you risking your sexual health. The percentages, we can discuss, of course.

But yeah, I've said my piece. I know the truth from personal experience and other people's similar experiences. My endo knows, too. But you maybe know better.

 

[Wuffer]

At this point Wuffer is just another right fighter who seems to only request more studies, yet he seems to conveniently ignore those that contradict his glorified views of Androgen Inhibiting drugs.

Give me a break, finasteride. I could just as easily say to you: You are just another bitter finasteride user that had a bad experience and now sets out to demonize it, conveniently ignoring the vast number of studies to prove how safe it is.

I brought this up before, but the second you had a bad experience with finasteride (you claim it caused heart damage) your viewpoint miraculously flipped 180 degrees, and now all the studies you yourself ignored are now suddenly completely legitimate.

When you post replies like this, it makes me think more and more you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You rattle off your studies like you have a medical degree. You and I are not qualified to say any of these studies mean anything. That's up to actual scientists and medical professionals.

YOU are coming out with these claims. It's YOUR responsibility to back up your claims with CONCLUSIVE evidence. None of the studies you rattle off could be considered conclusive; you would be absolutely delusional if you said they were. If they were conclusive, the entire medical community would be up in arms about them. Many of the studies you cite are years old. Don't you maybe think if they were legitimate, the FDA would have picked up on it by now?

They haven't because the FDA looks to real proof. Over ten thousand ACTUAL people on finasteride in years of controlled studies. The fact that you 'conveniently' ignore this is what's really astounding.

You guys are always on the offence, attacking everything I say. I am constantly on the defence. That makes me think that you are the ones with an agenda to push, not me.

 

[Wuffer]

(double post.. I suck at computers.)

 

[Wuffer]

How exactly are you coming to the conclusion that i'm emotionally involved? That's sort of along the lines of "i'm not a jerk, you are! So there!"

So you do have a medical background? You have never once heard you say this, and in our many arguments, I assume you would have mentioned this. However, that was a flat out assumption on my part. If you do indeed have an applicable medical background, then my apologies.

How exactly does that change things if the finasteride trials were done in the 90's? Was it a different drug back then? Were humans genetically different back then? Did people not experience sexual dysfunction back then?

 

[cristi2011]

Finfighter, please give us a break with those studies and studies and studies.
Let's face it: those who make this studies over and over may be very qualified, but still they don't have a clue on what is really producing male pattern baldness or how to cure it.
They simply make some experiments, and derive some conclusions. Actually, you can find studies which contradict each other, i may give one example: one "study" show that green tea lowers DHT, other "study" shows it increases it by 200%. All these studies have a great amount of uncertainty in them, i think we barely can call them "scientific"...They only tell what researchers BELIEVE there SEEMS to happen, not actually what happens there with a 100% probability.
I think that, the more such "studies" one reads, the more confused he gets... They simply may mean nothing...we have many examples when what was believed for years or even decades based on some "studies" proved false one day...
And, for finasteride and sexual disfunction, even studies didn't show there is a major problem. Those who had problems with it keep researching for evidence finasteride is bad, and, surpise: they find it! Because you always find only what you want to find!
And i think only the long-term use of a drug can show us if it's safe or not. And finasteride has been used by many men during the last 10-15 years. I think we can speak of a minimum of 10.000.000 users worldwide, if not even more.(i'm not throwing a random number, there were some computations made by looking at Merck's annual income from propecia). And how many true cases of very bad side effects from finasteride do you know?? And keep in mind there is a subtle issue here with sexual disorders: many men have them even if they haven't heard of finasteride.(otherwise the market for v****, etc wouldn't be so big). Who can prove that his sexual problems are form finasteride alone??

 

[Wuffer]

finasteride, I was perfectly content to let the issue rest for now, since i'm also done with this raging debate. It was your little knock at me:

"At this point Wuffer is just another right fighter who seems to only request more studies, yet he seems to conveniently ignore those that contradict his glorified views of Androgen Inhibiting drugs."

that got me going again.

As I said before, lets resume this debate when "something" else comes out. If you have some new studies or theories or whatever, post them and i'll be happy to debate.. But yes, arguing the same sh!t over and over is extremely tiring!