DWAT: Dermal White Adipose Tissue Hypothesis

[balda]

I am going to try this anti inflammation / anti fibrosis protocol :

Topical etoricoxib
Topical setipiprant
Topical caffeine
Topical dexpanthenol
Topical L carnitine (it inhibits TGF-b like taurine)
Topical taurine
Topical niacin

What do you think?

Imo, it's really interesting. Please share the results.
Seems many of them have documented anti-fibrotic effect.
The question is are they powerful enough? And are they "preventive" or "revertive"? or the both?
Ideally it should be powerful fibrosis-reversing remedy.


PS.
from earlier notes:
"
Potentially, halting or reversing the transdifferentiation of adipocytes to myofibroblasts along with improving survival of reparative adipose-derived stromal cells (ADSCs) and expression of ANTIFIBROTIC CYTOKINES may be effective therapeutic avenues.
"

 

[onemoretime]

Imo, it's really interesting. Please share the results.
Seems many of them have documented anti-fibrotic effect.
The question is are they powerful enough? And are they "preventive" or "revertive"? or the both?
Ideally it should be powerful fibrosis-reversing remedy.


PS.
from earlier notes:
"
Potentially, halting or reversing the transdifferentiation of adipocytes to myofibroblasts along with improving survival of reparative adipose-derived stromal cells (ADSCs) and expression of ANTIFIBROTIC CYTOKINES may be effective therapeutic avenues.
"

Since massage can eventually break down scars, and is used to break down calcification in sport injuries, wouldn't some sort of extreme scalp massage eventually break down fibrosis? Assuming new is not formed, and that you can actually get deep enough to massage the layer where fibrosis is set (no idea how deep that is).

Also, what of serrapeptase, doesn't is break down fibrin? Problem with getting it to the scalp?

Finally, would copper peptides taken sublingualy work, or does it have to be a topical application?

https://www.super-nutrition.com/en--scientific-research--ghk-cu-tripeptide-5-mg--H763 - would this work? I saw the picured you poseted about 10mg of Cu GHK, but it doesn't say how it was taken.

 

[onemoretime]

Also, what is the situation with diffuse thiners, are they losing fat tissue as well?

Has there been any report if Norwood 5+ guys that do a huge hair transplant, do they regain the tissue over time now that there is hair there?

 

[balda]

Since massage can eventually break down scars, and is used to break down calcification in sport injuries, wouldn't some sort of extreme scalp massage eventually break down fibrosis? Assuming new is not formed, and that you can actually get deep enough to massage the layer where fibrosis is set (no idea how deep that is).

Also, what of serrapeptase, doesn't is break down fibrin? Problem with getting it to the scalp?

Finally, would copper peptides taken sublingualy work, or does it have to be a topical application?

https://www.super-nutrition.com/en--scientific-research--ghk-cu-tripeptide-5-mg--H763 - would this work? I saw the picured you poseted about 10mg of Cu GHK, but it doesn't say how it was taken.

Thanks

massage:
i don't know for now. seems you know even more about it. could you provide some scientific papers related to massage/fibrosis?

serrapeptase:
thanks. not used or collected info yet. just saw as it's mentioned once in another post.

ghk:
topical, imo. personally, tried to order it, but it was "reversed" by customs or so
specifically that stuff: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XFQCL74

since that i added more other things, but it's too early to record/share the results.
particularly, i've investigated "iodine" as a remedy for fibrosis (hopefully there is one type of fibrosis or all of them has the same nature).
it's cheap and available basically everywhere. will post more about it one day. it's suppposed to be safe, as already scientifically prooved as a topical remedy for AA (not Androgenetic Alopecia!). it means it's safe in any case, even if it's not effective in Androgenetic Alopecia case.
some links for aa and scars (scars are pure fibrosis):

Successful human scar regeneration by topical iodine A case report: An interim (3.5 year) summary

Download Citation | Successful human scar regeneration by topical iodine A case report: An interim (3.5 year) summary | Control of regeneration and wound healing are scientific and clinical objectives. In 1997, topical Lugol's iodine solution applied daily for 3... | Find, read and cite all the...

www.researchgate.net

Topical Iodine Cured His Patchy Hair Loss ONLY AFTER 2 MONTHS!

Can Iodine grow back your hair? We recently came across hair loss success story from a guy who cured his alopecia areata (AA) using tincture of iodine for hair loss and we had to share it with our readers.Look at his AMAZING before and after photos (Scroll down to see photos). As most of you...

www.msfullhair.com

Alopecia areata

Alopecia areata

ijdvl.com

ps.
i would take it pretty seriously:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/this-guy-went-from-norwood-2-5-3-to-a-norwood-1-claiming-he-followed-this-regimen.79236/

 

[balda]

Also, what is the situation with diffuse thiners, are they losing fat tissue as well?

Has there been any report if Norwood 5+ guys that do a huge hair transplant, do they regain the tissue over time now that there is hair there?

diffuse: imho there is not too much difference in the process of environment/skin degradation between "thinning" types.

transplants: i strongly believe that not pure "hairs", but "shaft", including dwat and etc, are transplanted. that is, dwat isn't supposed to be regained after, it's just transplanted with.

 

[balda]

Status.

Dropped Cetirizine. As i have mood swings cause of it
Not using any topical preventive (!) anti-androgenic remedies anymore.

Still sticking to:
- niacin (indirectly anti-androgenic) and some other vitamin-b related stuff
- tocotrienols and other lipids (cod liver, lecithin), also added more recently (k2/m4)
- taurine (multiplied dosage)
- hagerty's massage (but mostly for non-Androgenetic Alopecia reasons)

...and much more highly experimental stuff to be shared later

 

[onemoretime]

Thanks

massage:
i don't know for now. seems you know even more about it. could you provide some scientific papers related to massage/fibrosis?

serrapeptase:
thanks. not used or collected info yet. just saw as it's mentioned once in another post.

ghk:
topical, imo. personally, tried to order it, but it was "reversed" by customs or so
specifically that stuff: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XFQCL74

since that i added more other things, but it's too early to record/share the results.
particularly, i've investigated "iodine" as a remedy for fibrosis (hopefully there is one type of fibrosis or all of them has the same nature).
it's cheap and available basically everywhere. will post more about it one day. it's suppposed to be safe, as already scientifically prooved as a topical remedy for AA (not Androgenetic Alopecia!). it means it's safe in any case, even if it's not effective in Androgenetic Alopecia case.
some links for aa and scars (scars are pure fibrosis):

Successful human scar regeneration by topical iodine A case report: An interim (3.5 year) summary

Download Citation | Successful human scar regeneration by topical iodine A case report: An interim (3.5 year) summary | Control of regeneration and wound healing are scientific and clinical objectives. In 1997, topical Lugol's iodine solution applied daily for 3... | Find, read and cite all the...

www.researchgate.net

Topical Iodine Cured His Patchy Hair Loss ONLY AFTER 2 MONTHS!

Can Iodine grow back your hair? We recently came across hair loss success story from a guy who cured his alopecia areata (AA) using tincture of iodine for hair loss and we had to share it with our readers.Look at his AMAZING before and after photos (Scroll down to see photos). As most of you...

www.msfullhair.com

Alopecia areata

Alopecia areata

ijdvl.com

ps.
i would take it pretty seriously:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/this-guy-went-from-norwood-2-5-3-to-a-norwood-1-claiming-he-followed-this-regimen.79236/

All the information I have is from talking with the physios at my work place. Manual therapy works on both scar tissue and calcification. The former fairly slowly. One older woman we had working there before apparently massaged a scar on his face completely away. It took a few years and I don't know which oil she used.

Micro-needling works by inducing new collagen production, so maybe that helps in restoring the layers over time?

How did you plan to use that GHK bottle? Adding it to something? Wonder if it would would be stable if added to minoxidil.

I've ordered these: https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Creams, vitamins, serums, masks/Copper peptide facial mask/ basically you can use is like a lotion, no need to use it like a mask.

If you are using Hagerty's massage, why not upgrade to full scalp massages? Hagerty's massages gave me eye strain for some reason.

results of this old dude from massages (just the pics, the rest is rubbish) :

Thinking about the layers, can't help thinking that blood is they key. Healthy, oxygen and nutrient rich blood, and minimizing inflammation from all sources (food, DHT, pdg2...). Getting it to the scalp in huge quantites in order to slowly wash away all the buildup and maybe start restoring the fat layers, esspcially if is connects sucesfully to dormant follicles.

One experiment with twins I would really like to is this: you get two twins destined to go bald, one goes on live a normal life, the other becomes one of those weird acrobats that hang from their hair and are swung around by it. I can't imagine the second ever losing any tissue, he'd have roots all the way to his ***.

 

[onemoretime]

On a side not, I've borrowed a hyper-volt device from work today. This thing:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71iV7YdBrwL._AC_SX425_.jpg

Using the top right attachment is perfect for scalp, as it has kind soft collapsable top, and hard at the bottom. This is normally a massage device for body. I also have an Teether inversion table.

I normally invert at about 70 degrees (90 would be full inversion, but that is too much). While being almost full inverted I used the hypervolt at highest setting, pushing the device at the head as hard as I can. You can feel your head vibrate deeply, even to the chest area. All that blood pooling in my head and then being thrown about by the hypervolt could maybe do some good, if massages are doing good. Possibly even help with some topical absorption in this way.

The trick now is to get the blood pumped full of things that can help restore the fat layer over time. And do all of that for at least a year to see if it has any merit. I've seen people have no results from manual therapy for over a year, and then suddenly it starts.

One thing I can definitely say from my own experience, after a year of massages (with a month off) and about 9 months of micro-needling: my crown area tissue seems to be thicker now. I can do 2.5 mm depth with derminator 2 now with no blood and no reall pain. Used to hurt like a MF and I could only do slow speed. Now 2.5 mm medium speed is not a problem. It'd like to believe it is end result of some fat tissue restoring itself. It is also the only area where I've had noticeable regrowth (thou nothing spectacular as I'm starting from NW7), people actually noticed I now have a swirl back there.

The rest of the scalp is less painfull now then I do needling, and I can go about 0.25 deeper, so maybe? But no real results there, so maybe not.

The copper peptides stung like a mf after microneedling thou.

 

[onemoretime]

Don't know about lard, but I just remembered the first time I've read the adipose tissue being a key factor was from Loren Pickart. And to combat that he created a lipid replenisher - Emu Oil S.

Emu Oil S for Skin

Emu Oil S for the skin is a perfect natural oil to protect the most dry or most fragile skin. This ancient remedy, 100% pure emu oil, is enhanced with natural protective antioxidants to restore your skin into being soft, supple and radiant.

store.reverseskinaging.com

It is bassicaly emu oil + Q10 + tocopherols +tocotrienols + lutein + saw palmetto. Anyone's guess if it does anything.

 

[onemoretime]

@balda

How about this?

Buy GHK-Cu Pre Mixed Peptide Pen - Direct Peptides

Buy Ghk-Cu Pre Mixed Peptide Pen , available in 5mg and 100mg from Direct Peptides. This anti-aging peptide helps repair skin.

direct-peptides.com

Shoot the copper peptides strait into the scalp. Could also work as a DHT blocker this way as a bonus.

 

[balda]

All the information I have is from talking with the physios at my work place. Manual therapy works on both scar tissue and calcification. The former fairly slowly. One older woman we had working there before apparently massaged a scar on his face completely away. It took a few years and I don't know which oil she used.

I'm personally sceptical about message as fibrosis reverting technics. Maybe it could be used as preventive, but not as reverting remedy. If you met any formal researches, would be nice to check. In case of the man from the video, the minimal regains are achieved thanks to better blood circulation or removing some other possible issues, such as calcification.

Micro-needling works by inducing new collagen production, so maybe that helps in restoring the layers over time?

maybe, no idea. For now i stay away from needling. I don't see how it cures follicles "environment". Boosting growth factors could barely be a critical part of the routine.

How did you plan to use that GHK bottle? Adding it to something? Wonder if it would would be stable if added to minoxidil.

Don't know for now. Topically somehow.

I've ordered these: https://owndoc.shop/Dermaneedling/Creams, vitamins, serums, masks/Copper peptide facial mask/ basically you can use is like a lotion, no need to use it like a mask.

Cool, thanks )

If you are using Hagerty's massage, why not upgrade to full scalp massages? Hagerty's massages gave me eye strain for some reason.

It has a very very big advantage, from my point of view, it's hands-free.

results of this old dude from massages (just the pics, the rest is rubbish) :

Thinking about the layers, can't help thinking that blood is they key. Healthy, oxygen and nutrient rich blood, and minimizing inflammation from all sources (food, DHT, pdg2...). Getting it to the scalp in huge quantites in order to slowly wash away all the buildup and maybe start restoring the fat layers, esspcially if is connects sucesfully to dormant follicles.

Last time I gravitate to the hypothesis that there are more hair follicle environment pathologies behind, not just fibrosis of dwat. But anyway, they are "morphology" related factors. The damages should be reverted/compensated or at least prevented. If it happens, blood flow and other metabolic processes should run properly.

 

[TheHawk]

Finally have time to degen into these things like I’m 18 again.

getting cetrezine, alcohol, and distilled water and making a potion

looking into Niacin too.

second straight night of pig larding my scalp too

doing infrared lasering every day

about order this massage device that works like the hairguard scalp pump

But I’m really focusing on the anti-fibrotic angle of things.

 

[GRme11]

thanks for the help . what are your take on prostaquinon from fagron? ( nigella sativa extract that is supposed to work on ppgd2 inhibition but might be a cox2 inhibitor unfortunnately) i'm using it in conjuction to ceti since i won't touch seti

Hello. Are you still using the Prostaquinon? Yes, it's a COX-2 inhibitor, so it both lowers PGE2/PGD2. I think it's only good, for 1-2 times per week application for 10 minutes, then wash the hair, so someone will not disrupt the PGE2 ratio so much.

 

[balda]

Trying to get back with some ongoing notes.

Rosiglitazone:
has anyone tied it, topically?
(supposed to revive dwat)

PS.
seeing more and more threads/thoughts related to"environment-centric" hypothesis. That the hair follicles environment degrades one way or another: fibrosis, calcification, dermal adipocytes depletion, capillaries depletion etc. In other words, hair follicles don't disappear or die, just "captured". So the potential remedy should be able to revert degradation (and to prevent it, but it's not so critical, if the reversion is achievable) of the environment.

 

[coolio]

When they transplant a balded human follicle onto the back of an immume-suppressed mouse, the hair shaft starts regrowing and it pushes the fibrosis out of the way easily.

Our balding follicles are not being choked off by fibrosis. They are shutting down because of cellular problems.

 

[balda]

When they transplant a balded human follicle onto the back of an immume-suppressed mouse, the hair shaft starts regrowing and it pushes the fibrosis out of the way easily.

Our balding follicles are not being choked off by fibrosis. They are shutting down because of cellular problems.

The reference?

In general, if i get it right, they transplant "grafts with follicles", not just "follicles" (it's even barely possible to separate and transplant follicles only). The grafts include follicles (potentially several ones). So all the transplanted hair follicles have prone to degradation or something environment. Imho.

 

[coolio]

I don't have references but it's an old well-known thing. The fibrosis issue is a secondary effect of the balding process and there isn't much gain from fighting it.

Transplant doctors move little chunks of scalp skin with hairs growing out of them. That's what it boils down to.

Transplanted hairs are definitely prone to thinning worse than they did in their native (donor) area. But the severity of that effect varies a lot. The transplant industry says it doesn't happen but that's bullshit. It definitely happens to some guys with transplants.

 

[balda]

@coolio You wrote:
"They are shutting down because of cellular problems."

Please, could you specify/name that "cellular problems"? Any clues?

 

[balda]

Something big? or small? time will tell. hooray, anyway.

DWAT fixing compositions been patented a few weeks ago:

US Patent Application for COMPOSITIONS AND METHODS RELATING TO ALOPECIA Patent Application (Application #20230390355 issued December 7, 2023) - Justia Patents Search

Provided herein are compositions and methods for targeting dermal white adipose tissue for hair follicle stimulation and regeneration.

patents.justia.com

#adp355 )
#tripeptide #hexepaptide #adiponectin #anti-fibrotic #ppar-g #igf-1 #jak-stat

 

[balda]

something that came to mind to me too:

https://www.reddit.com/r/RealRegrowth/comments/svlj3q

hair growth pattern in newborns as a predictor of future baldness progress.
if so, it could be linked to dwat. its thickness/distribution/"consistency" defines potential filling/balding pattern.