Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[JaneyElizabeth]

Im referring to obsolutetinker and people like him.

Who was that guy? I seem to recall several pages of a tantrum by him.

 

[Androgenic Alpaca]

Who was that guy? I seem to recall several pages of a tantrum by him.

Some men are so insecure about not being masculine enough that they throw a temper tantrum whenever they see other men (or other AMAB people) acting in ways that they perceive to be less masculine.

 

[Ephemeral-Kitten]

I call people what they ask to be called. You know that I wish you well but I don't respond well if a person keeps going when we both already stated our piece/peace. Life is too short for me to be sitting around conjecturing. about all the different names and terms and shades of meaning and acronyms plus cis-folks are not expected to know what afab means. I have my transgender support group this evening and we all do just fine already so thanks but I prefer to discuss science not linguistics. I have three genders and two personalities plus I have asperger-like tendencies so if you keep pushing me I will just withdraw. We have lots of interesting hair issues up on the board and you have expertise.

I abhor when people move to a new gender and start telling the original chromosomal folks how they should live their lives and whom they should associate with. I find that one group in particular that claims to be a certain gender but whose ethic and tendency to become offended if "misgendered" is nothing at all like the group they purport to be part of which is dismissive of people who are overly sensitive.

But if you want to debate this formally, then let me know and prepare myself. But I enjoy satire especially regarding groups that I am a member of. I have sort of grilled folks who want to use different pronouns for each meal or who expected people to know that they are "Zier" on Fridays. I despise that whoever runs the movement decide on "they are" instead of "they is". It is fatuous and nobody can discern easily the antecedent. With they is, you know it is singular and it is irrelevant that it is conjugated in the singular--it is singular in meaning so I would appreciate everyone on here trying to say "They is" for my sake. Kidding. The acronym agab to some is offensive as is the Northeast usage of "guys" for people of both genders. I still use the word sex and SRS and I eschew politically correct terms like GAS, which again nobody else knows the meaning of outside a select few. Be careful what you ask me because I am very frank and as a transgender person, resistant to other people telling me how to act. I base my life on inquiry and compassion for others but also truth.

Goddess Bless.

I'm not sure what like 90% of that post had to do with what I said. But sure, feel free to debate me formally on how cis and trans are not antonyms.

 

[Ephemeral-Kitten]

Initially, that's the hardest part of coming out as transgender in the MtF context because we are socialized that there is nothing more humiliating than a male in female clothing and that men with small organs are less masculine (which they are hormonally but not in terms of societal value).

The hardest part for me has always been struggling with an androgen-based puberty. I don't even wear female clothes, rather I strive to make my phenotype as estrogenic and non-androgenic as possible. To that end, hormones, facial surgery, etc.

If I only passed in female clothing or with stereotypically feminine gender expression then I don't believe that is truly passing. Physical dysphoria is my priority anyway, more so than social. I think androgens are a curse which vanquishes beauty and robs life expectancy. Meanwhile causing a high libido which is exceptionally annoying. A curse of nature to blight those who suffer an SRY gene activation.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Pegasus in using 400 mg of estriol. It would be interesting to hear more about that. Hard to estimate but I might be taking about 15 mg of estradiol although it varies. Probably the estrogen and derma rolling on the hairline and the crown is carrying the water for my hair right now. I actually have to go refill the duta and provera. I am taking prometrium 100's orally which is unlikely to move the needle a lot but I told folks that I would anecdotally verify P's effects on hair and its late addition on breasts.

 

[Androgenic Alpaca]

Pegasus in using 400 mg of estriol. It would be interesting to hear more about that. Hard to estimate but I might be taking about 15 mg of estradiol although it varies. Probably the estrogen and derma rolling on the hairline and the crown is carrying the water for my hair right now. I actually have to go refill the duta and provera. I am taking prometrium 100's orally which is unlikely to move the needle a lot but I told folks that I would anecdotally verify P's effects on hair and its late addition on breasts.

Pegasus's post says that 400mg per batch, with 1 batch being 10 days worth. So he uses 40mg estriol/day.

I'm currently using 30mg/day myself

Estriol has very poor absorption and on top of that is a very weak estrogen compared to estradiol. Obviously its impossible to make a direct comparison between estriol and estradiol since they affect the estrogen receptiors in different ways, but I'm sure that that 40mg/day dose of E3 has less feminizing effects than even just 1mg/day of E2

 

[Androgenic Alpaca]

Pegasus's post says that 400mg per batch, with 1 batch being 10 days worth. So he uses 40mg estriol/day.

I'm currently using 30mg/day myself

Estriol has very poor absorption and on top of that is a very weak estrogen compared to estradiol. Obviously its impossible to make a direct comparison between estriol and estradiol since they affect the estrogen receptiors in different ways, but I'm sure that that 40mg/day dose of E3 has less feminizing effects than even just 1mg/day of E2

I've only been using estriol a couple weeks, so too soon to tell if its helping my hair, but it does seem to have made my skin very soft

 

[Androgenic Alpaca]

I feel the same. That's why I refer to the Goddess as a reference to estrogen and Her Spirit but it is more of a reaction against what the God I grew up with "stood for".

Okay. Here is a today pic. I am finally getting confident enough to post and I am pretty happy but lighting still makes a difference. Once we can look in three way mirrors in changing rooms and not see thinning in the crown, we are gold and I can declare victory. My hair appears to be growing rapidly from the estrogel, retin-A, derma-rolling and Rogaine. I used Keto 2 percent today. Do you guys understand the concept of not jinxing it? Even though I am not superstitious at all.

Second pic is Jane pic from last week. Anytime I find a mirror, I am one happy little person. First pic

View attachment 147214 View attachment 147213

Btw, your hair in the second pic looks incredible. lots of density, very healthy looking texture and shine. Would never have thought it would be possible from your before pics

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I've only been using estriol a couple weeks, so too soon to tell if its helping my hair, but it does seem to have made my skin very soft

I've only been using estriol a couple weeks, so too soon to tell if its helping my hair, but it does seem to have made my skin very soft

I always liked it and that it did nice things but the MtF crowd is adamant that estriol menopausal cream is too weak to have effects but I have used it since late 2013 sometimes alone but usually with Life Flo Biestro Care. I sure have no complaints in the breast department and the theory is that cis-female girls start puberty with very little estrogen and that initiates breast growth.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Btw, your hair in the second pic looks incredible. lots of density, very healthy looking texture and shine. Would never have thought it would be possible from your before pics

Ha. That's a wig but still my standard until my own covers my ears and looks androgynous.

One reason why I came on with such a splash is that I have been researching and planning this but I had to decide finally to just say wtf about further breast growth. MtFs essentially have no real cataloging of what effects happen at what level of estrogen. I think for female hair you have to hit targets but for effects below the neck, they can come with middling amounts of both estrogen and T. I finally found an article about when to add AA's for hair growth and that tipped me off. Otherwise, non-binary people probably won't have enough estrogen to trigger hair restoration.

The next step was bica due to its great reputation for hair growth but the article also said that E2 only should work so I went off Premarin because you don't want to swallow enough Premarin to hit targets, dumped spironolactone because I felt crappy and then added the two Climara patches plus estrogel, my old friend. I will try to keep posting daily pics so people can get a sense of how fast it is growing or not. Obviously, I am thrilled. This has been my lifetime goal apart from my family, to figure this out. I will also address the rejuvenation aspects. Like @bridgeburn, I liked all of the female side-effects and I was tired of T and its driven feeling. Another hypothesis which I think that I have confirmed is that I had to remove the beard to stop the dermatitis in spite of finasteride and Duta and spironolactone and Premarin because the DHT is synthesized in the skin. Now with the follicles gone, my face cleared up and lightened in shade as is common for white MtFs.

Goddess Bless my alter-ego, he served me well but as can be seen, he looks exhausted and a bit bewildered by life. Jane took over and saved the day but I still have to juggle things due to my custody case.

Not to brag but I had always been attractive and then T started ravaging me with dermatitis and finasteride maybe started losing some effect and I expected to be more attractive both presenting as a female and as a male under the dominion of estrogen. I am 170 centimeters and weigh 61 kilos and being petite makes a world of difference in presenting as female.

 

[Ephemeral-Kitten]

I always liked it and that it did nice things but the MtF crowd is adamant that estriol menopausal cream is too weak to have effects but I have used it since late 2013 sometimes alone but usually with Life Flo Biestro Care. I sure have no complaints in the breast department and the theory is that cis-female girls start puberty with very little estrogen and that initiates breast growth.

Hormonal creams usually have poor absorption due to lack of a proper vehicle. Estriol gel is far better because ethanol facilitates more absorption than the creams. Estriol pills should work well too because estriol is an end product of enzymatic conversion, similar to how T can become DHT but not the reverse.

Regarding breast development, estrone is the primary factor in female puberty from tanner stage 1 to 4. This is possible because of the strong concentration of 3 enzymes in the breast tissue: 17b-HSD, aromatase, and sulfotransferase.

 

[Ephemeral-Kitten]

I despise that whoever runs the movement decide on "they are" instead of "they is". It is fatuous and nobody can discern easily the antecedent. With they is, you know it is singular and it is irrelevant that it is conjugated in the singular--it is singular in meaning so I would appreciate everyone on here trying to say "They is" for my sake. Kidding. The acronym agab to some is offensive as is the Northeast usage of "guys" for people of both genders. I still use the word sex and SRS and I eschew politically correct terms like GAS, which again nobody else knows the meaning of outside a select few. Be careful what you ask me because I am very frank and as a transgender person, resistant to other people telling me how to act. I base my life on inquiry and compassion for others but also truth.

Goddess Bless.

Oh yeah, I just saw this again when I was going back in the thread and it reminded me of an interesting example regarding agreement in number. Historically, the word "you" has referred exclusively to more than one person, with "thou" used for singular. Today, we use "you" for both plural and singular, but the existence verb remains plural even when referring to just one person. "Who are you?"

Also I've never heard of anyone being offended by agab and people use guys in a neutral way on the west coast as well lol

 

[Ephemeral-Kitten]

I am not going there and doing that with you because you take it personally

I don't take it personally at all, it is only mildly annoying when people don't take objective correction gracefully.

 

[Ephemeral-Kitten]

That's what I am talking about. I had somebody hounding me on reddit telling me that I am a binary mtf and not a non-binary mtf and I am like, wtf, nobody uses it that way, even if maybe correct but people don't know people's situation. I might more so have multiple personality syndrome. I assure you that were I into it, I can defend my position. I am generally very precise when it matters and I am typing thousands and thousands of words a week but if you want to be my editor, then we can talk.
Goddess bless.

Someone who is non-binary is not binary trans or cis, so that person made no sense, as unrelated as it may be. It's telling that you say you can defend your position that cis and trans are not antonyms (despite them literally being so) and yet never do. If you were imprecise in your language and misspoke earlier, that is totally fine, but then I'm puzzled why you didn't say so rather than trying to fortify your position by speaking about many unrelated things ad nauseum.

It was a very trivial, gentle correction, because I thought you may have naively believed that the meaning of cis was the same as biological since people use cis male/female and biological male/female interchangeably sometimes. I'm not trying to attack your identity or something.

Regarding multiple personality syndrome, I would say inconsistent gender would be more akin to gender fluidity than "cisgender transgender" which is an oxymoron.

 

[Androgenic Alpaca]

Hormonal creams usually have poor absorption due to lack of a proper vehicle. Estriol gel is far better because ethanol facilitates more absorption than the creams. Estriol pills should work well too because estriol is an end product of enzymatic conversion, similar to how T can become DHT but not the reverse.

Regarding breast development, estrone is the primary factor in female puberty from tanner stage 1 to 4. This is possible because of the strong concentration of 3 enzymes in the breast tissue: 17b-HSD, aromatase, and sulfotransferase.

Yeah improper absorption is something that I'm worried about. I really need to find a solution for estriol application that is both cost-effective and just plain effective. Considering also adding in progesterone. Really it might be best to find a Doctor that'll write me some prescriptions for compounding, but idk if any doctors would be willing to do that for me.

I found some estriol tablets on the grey market pharmacy websites, most are 2mg estriol per tablet. I have no idea if that'll be enough. Topical estriol is suggest to be used in large doses due to poor absorption, I don't know about oral

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I never thought about estriol pills. Is Life-Flo too expensive? Or do you not like the carrier? The problem with adding progesterone and I did too is it is impossible to verify if it is doing anything without testing and even then you have to put it in the backdoor or maybe inject it. I hear some good things about its effects on breasts, face and scalp but everything always comes back to estrogen for hair and except for boobs, for most MtF things.

This is sort of my job now meaning the courts are still lagging so I apply estrogel maybe ten times a day. I use it as a hair tonic like the old Vitalis--boy, those disappeared--and I also use it on the normal areas of interest.

One thing that I might point out to guys is that look at the area in front of your ears. Even guys with full coverage tend to have far less hair here than women and that is sort of part of the female hairline even though it is vertical in orientation. That's why it can be so hard to verify one's own progress. A lot of guys like Shia Leboeff (sp) have decent hair on top but the hair in front of the ears is distracting. Yes, that is how much of a perfectionist I am but I hate jagged "hairlines" in front of the ears and many, many males have this. So, I put estrogel especially where the sideburns meet the wispy hair coming down from the hairline. That can fill in so gradually that you can tell that things are better but it is hard to articulate because the temples still lag.

 

[Androgenic Alpaca]

I never thought about estriol pills. Is Life-Flo too expensive? Or do you not like the carrier? The problem with adding progesterone and I did too is it is impossible to verify if it is doing anything without testing and even then you have to put it in the backdoor or maybe inject it. I hear some good things about its effects on breasts, face and scalp but everything always comes back to estrogen for hair and except for boobs, for most MtF things.

This is sort of my job now meaning the courts are still lagging so I apply estrogel maybe ten times a day. I use it as a hair tonic like the old Vitalis--boy, those disappeared--and I also use it on the normal areas of interest.

One thing that I might point out to guys is that look at the area in front of your ears. Even guys with full coverage tend to have far less hair here than women and that is sort of part of the female hairline even though it is vertical in orientation. That's why it can be so hard to verify one's own progress. A lot of guys like Shia Leboeff (sp) have decent hair on top but the hair in front of the ears is distracting. Yes, that is how much of a perfectionist I am but I hate jagged "hairlines" in front of the ears and many, many males have this. So, I put estrogel especially where the sideburns meet the wispy hair coming down from the hairline.

Life-flo has a piddly amount of estriol in it, I'd need to use almost an entire container each day. Plus there's the absorption problems that ephemeral-kitten mentioned. It would be better to use something in a vehicle that contains alcohol or DMSO.

And as for progesterone, there's different effects of different routes of administration. large doses have antigonaotropin effects, especially when taken rectally. Progesterone is also useful for breast development in late tanner stages. But I'm more interested in using it in smaller topical doses. This has been experimentally shown to improve skin and hair health, though truthfully I'm not sure what the biochemical mechanism here at play is

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Life-flo has a piddly amount of estriol in it, I'd need to use almost an entire container each day.

I forget that we are extreme users. One day an entire 80 gram tube of estrogel just vaporized. I laugh about science but I continue trying to verify for myself although I am pretty happy and others, if you can fatten up your *** or boobs or thighs with direct application of estrogel. The new thing now is scrotal application of the patch since a new study on absorption came out and boy does that shrink the area a lot, a lot. You might try scrotal application but then again, you have receptor clinging versus filling issues that I don't have. All's I knows is that Biestro worked pretty good for me and I can try to show a pictorial timeline regarding that at some point.

And wait, you aren't MtF, so scratch the reference to you but for others....

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I think that the evidence for progesterone related to breasts is mixed but I think that most lean towards its not being essential for any aspect of the MtF HRT experience. I just watched the Dr. Will Powers video on youtube and that is a great overview by a quack so we all have our talents and strengths. I am going to try to maybe do some research on medroxyprogesterone acetate which I use at 10 mg.

One thing is that for hair, the synthetic question is not such a big deal because we are trying to coax out dormant hair. I don't have to use provera forever or any particular AA forever for my hair although many MtFs do have to use these "forever" along with at least E.

 

[Ephemeral-Kitten]

I am so exhausted but let me think some more. I lost my children because I didn't know how to handle "this" and so I spend hours and hours litigating this transgender custody litigation. In spite of that, finding Jane is part of my blessing and I savor it. and her The idea of each of us, being perfect via hormonal manipulation obsesses me right now but I am a man/woman/they of many interests. I was done and finished with life and Jane brought me back.

So on the one hand, the whole ides of doing all of this just to have boobs seems frivolous but for me, hair is like boobs X 10. The science is so much more viable for hair. How many of us can make this work just the way that we want? So all of the rest is noise right now. Goddess gave me my hair back and she threw in some nice boobs for free so I am both blessed and still trying to dig myself of the fall-out in my family and with my ex. Gender dysphoria can be staggering and I am still articulating my world, and I might not have made it just a few months or a year ago if I hadn't happened to have done everything just right the last year.

There is a way to do the entire MtF experience better but not in the ways that people think. We will see about Pegasus because that is interesting but I think that he is going to top out before you might or I might because the male hair experience among whites is just not very good compared to the female one and the teenage boy one, which I adored. But being irreverent is part of who I am at my core. I really had Goddess direct me on all of this and it all became clear how I was to proceed. I have to accept my inner diva while trying to remaining in equilibrium about everything else. I guess I will go answer some questions like "Help. I started HRT three weeks ago and my boobs aren't sore" and "sore" boobs mean more boobs, sigh.

I'm sorry about your situation with your kids.

It's not fair to categorize trans women as all just focusing on boobs to the exclusion of all else. My boobs are small and I really don't care because I have other priorities like my face (aesthetic surgery coming up), hair, voice, and so on. Unless I passed fully, I don't know if I would consider larger breasts a benefit. Maybe some day I'll regret not focusing on boobs. As an aside, I don't have any name or identity or any of that because it seems pointless to me to come up with a new name that is more commonly identified as female until I fully pass regardless of presentation. Identity is not a very important topic to me. Looking non-male is the priority to me. That being said, I definitely don't relate to being a guy in the slightest and only boymode because it's easier to ignore myself and fend off physical dysphoria. All I really have going for me is my torso circumference being within female norms and having a little bit of hips, which may have been the consequence of having estradiol above male range even without HRT, since estrogens cause earlier bone fusion, but who knows.

Anyway, this "response" was completely unrelated and did not even remotely address the fact cis and trans are antonyms lol