Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[John Difool]

If you keep T up then you will need AA & 5ARi based on your DHT. Bica is good for that Expect gyno even with high T as E2 will find its way to the breasts tissues and Bica will increase it. However raising E2 in a range that brings results will lower your T. Check E2 monotherapy. There is no magic. In fact this very thread shows the outcome of raising E2 and using AA in the first few pages

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

<raises hand?

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

No, I haven't used bica or CPA. I take 10 mg MPA/Provera which I often forget to fill. Right now, the big 2 are oral minoxidil and climara and estrogel. I have put on very large amounts of weight over the past two weeks which doesn't thrill me. Since I go tomorrow for laser hair removal, I am not too worried about body or beard hair regrowth from oral minoxidil.

I stopped spironolactone in May and that was basically the point where my hair got long enough after my spironolactone shed to monitor going forward. It's funny because were I in male mode, I would be ecstatic with the progress and the crown finally filling in, but in a female context, I have higher aspirations and those seem to be within reach as well.

 

[Jacob Williams]

Man...I know Ikarus and Noah mentioned that they tried to combine CPA and Bicalutamide in the past and actually noticed a decrease in effectiveness. I always assumed that was just placebo because I couldn’t think of any medical reason why that would be the case, but my experience kind of matches up. I was on Bicalutamide alone for 8 months and didn’t notice a detectable difference in my hair. Now this might’ve been because I still had decent density and the drop from 80% to 70% is a lot less noticeable than the drop from 60% to 50%, especially with long hair, but I certainly feel like I’m regressing much quicker while on a combination of CPA and Bicalutamide. That being said I don’t have any other evidence of increased androgen activity. I don’t think my skin is more oily, nor more acne prone. I also haven’t noticed a change in my sex drive or erection strength. I guess I must be imagining things.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I find that hair improvement isn't automatic but that estrogen by itself in sufficient quantities is enough to stop hair loss and likely, in my case to result in essentially full regrowth in a male context but once the hair has been recovered, then the improvement stage of longer anagen and estrogenic skin effects take over.

 

[John Difool]

Did you do any blood work to validate that theory?

 

[pegasus2]

We know from that patent that even estriol is enough to stop hair loss and get some improvement, so I am not surprised you are able to get significant regrowth on estradiol alone. I've recently added it to my regimen, hoping that the sides will be delayed/less severe since I'm not on any oral AA. I'm only on topical dutasteride and RU.

 

[Jacob Williams]

Did you do any blood work to validate that theory?

I wouldn’t have a reference point. I don’t know what my levels looked like on Bica or CPA alone. I’m still not convinced they counteract each other. I think I was regressing on Bica alone it was just less noticeable because I had much better density at the time.

 

[John Difool]

We know from that patent that even estriol is enough to stop hair loss and get some improvement, so I am not surprised you are able to get significant regrowth on estradiol alone. I've recently added it to my regimen, hoping that the sides will be delayed/less severe since I'm not on any oral AA. I'm only on topical dutasteride and RU.

Would be interesting to see results of your blood work

 

[Androgenic Alpaca]

We know from that patent that even estriol is enough to stop hair loss and get some improvement, so I am not surprised you are able to get significant regrowth on estradiol alone. I've recently added it to my regimen, hoping that the sides will be delayed/less severe since I'm not on any oral AA. I'm only on topical dutasteride and RU.

Are you going to document your T/E blood levels? would be very useful knowledge

My plan is to upgrade from E3 to E2 if I'm not happy with the results of my current regimen in 4 or 5 months (without an oral AA) and it would be nice to know what to expect if I do go down that route

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I keep my ears open and again and again, when MtFs are having issues with their meds, it's always the AA.

Btw, the FtMs at the DIY site have been banished. I think that it has to do with testosterone being schedule 3 as a drug.

 

[John Difool]

I use 6mg topical E2. E3 didn't work very well.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I am not certain that anything works except for estradiol and perhaps estrone or a mega dose of estriol but I continue monitoring the progress of those on AA's without estrogen or who use 2 mg or less and I don't think that it works in any sort of predicable manner. Breast growth certainly is nothing predictable or that can be improved based upon current data and studies.

When I was using Life Flo Biestro, I had far "better" breast and *** results than anything above the neck and it took me two years to even bother trying for targets once I dumped spironolactone and decided that I could live with the feminine figure that I have which is stereotypical of cis-females not MtF's. HRT is maddening in that you have folks like me who did DIY and then HRT for six years and I have gotten excellent results. I literally could not complain about anything. Being small in size and stature is a huge aide which is something many/most MtFs refuse to accept but it shouldn't impact upon hair improvement, unlike hip and bust and facial feminization results. Others claim little to no external results at all.

I posted a hair study done on just one person who did have good results on spironolactone and only regrowth significant hair after adding spironolactone but she couldn't make targets. I have a very firm feeling about this, that adult female levels of estradiol are necessary for estrogen to work its magic on hair regrowth/improvement. I have also tried to depict the different way that hair appears to be restored for MTF's and unless we are talking about areas of bald scalp, hair "regrowth" is not based upon the temples and crown as in male pattern baldness but appears rather to take place in a context of regrowth/improvement affecting all of the scalp hair, not just the temples and crown. If true, it is similar to female pattern hair loss which is also non-localized compared to male pattern baldness.For some whites, there is a sort of kinky or curly stage along with the mullet effect that can often make hair unruly and difficult to comb. I am right at that point so we shall see.

Notice how the hairline improvement is based upon the center point and not the temples which are lagging more so but it is clear that when that little triangle in the center of the frontal hairline fills in, that much of the battle will have be at least temporarily won. At that point, I expect thickening and length increase due to increased anagen cycles.

With respect to @bridgeburn, as I recall, he was taking approximately 6 mg of estradiol

sublingually which is much more like 12 mg perhaps plus he was always taking an AA in normal or slightly lessened dosage which was probably efficacious in getting the ball rolling for him. I guess experiences are different but spironolactone weakened me so greatly that staying on it wasn't for me and I have just upped the estradiol and the estrogel in the scalp. Knock on wood; I prefer not to say too much still lest I crash and burn but everything since my massive spironolactone shed to baldness has worked as expected resulting in the term "benevolent shed" in terms of regrowth but it still sucked because it took a year to get back to a respectable length. I think that I still look better in the wig which is a specific form of irony, i.e. restoring hair and hairline as has been my dream for 36 years and then not being ready yet to bear the fruits. It still won't be long enough probably till New Year's.

 

[finastride23]

Are you losing ground from shedding or hair miniaturization?

hair miniaturization

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I partially agree with your and the mainstream medical view that Androgenetic Alopecia is due to genes. But there is always something called epigenetics and it has been substantiated numerous times. Environmental factors due to play a MAJOR role behind our good and bad genes.

What influences genes? What makes one generation healthy than the other? What makes Asian men less susceptible to pattern baldness?

Think about it from a birds eye view. It is not rocket science. It's what we primary put in our mouths, our stress levels, our sleep cycles, our entire lifestyle.

I love to always use the Japanese as a comparison here. Compare our diets with Japan (traditional not westernized). They avoid dairy (dairy is the culprit behind many diseases include Androgenetic Alopecia, limit meat consumption (primarily eat seafood), eat 12x the daily requirement of kelp (iodine is the source of thyroid regulation which is the source and TARGET for hair density and length), they eat more soy than any other nation (I have already pointed out numerous soy studies and how they play a role in hair growth. In fact some Japanese men are androgynous, whether it's the surplus of the phytoestrogens in soy in their diets or something else, I won't be surprised.), they drink more green tea than any other nation (numerous studies on green tea suppressing DHT, prolactin, and cortisol, and other stress hormones), and walk a lot. Their eating schedules are also not erratic.

And when you look at the U.S. what do you see? Doctors against iodine because they think it raises blood pressure (yea you morons the artificial table salt but not sea salt or pure grade iodine). Soy is poison. Yea GMO soys not organic, another moronic claim. Hamburgers, pizza, dairy, dairy, dairy, dairy, red meat, red meat, red meat, fatty foods, sodas, and other sh*t, etc. Overtime, of course our ancestors who eat sh*t food and live an unbalanced shitty lifestyle will pass off those shitty genes to the next generation. If that next generation repeats the same pattern, then those problematic genes are passed the next generation...so on and so forth.

So when you refer to genetics, it's the culmination of a prolonged healthy or unhealthy lifestyle over a set number of years that determines the quality of genes we get from our grandparents and parents. However, just because someone is born with sh*t genes, doesn't mean it's their fate. That's where epigenetics come into play which can change the outcome of your gene destiny.

I was 19 and had no time to do anything regarding gene destiny. Typically on baldness forums it is important to note that we are usually whites with this issue and I don't see too many non-whites since they have hair. American blacks do share a number of genes with white Americans.

At the same time, I don't think that Native American men who may bald less than white females have much of anything to inform us. I do not believe that dietary factors matter in baldness per se when we have the goal of hair regrowth. It might have been relevant beforehand but there probably is no data indicating that when Asian men go bald that they regain their hair any easier than do whites. If we were able to use epigenetics before the male pattern baldness horse shoe pattern then that might be worthwhile. But once follicles are dormant, it is very difficult to revive them.

I probably shouldn't say never but I don't expect the hairloss conundrum to be resolved except for how it is resolved now, meaning some hormonal medication will halt hair loss in many such as finasteride/Duta or AA's but whatever causes baldness in terms of cause and effect seems to involve some sort of injury to the dermal papillary that neither duta nor finasteride seems able to resolve. It's not clear to me that AA's "regrow" hair.

My thought is that AA's and reductase inhibitors are largely able to stop hair loss but that only estrogen changes the actual scalp environment to a degree necessary for dormant follicles to awaken and grow again. This still doesn't resolve the extreme differences in anagen length which seem linked to hair quality in females and again indicates that males aren't playing with a full deck of cards compared to females. It's the very essence of reproduction in a sense as hair loss is far more sexually dimorphic in whites and as we see, altering either T or E can wreak havoc with the reproductive system so we are hampered in our ability to make changes without impacting on male fertility.

 

[Androgenic Alpaca]

I partially agree with your and the mainstream medical view that Androgenetic Alopecia is due to genes. But there is always something called epigenetics and it has been substantiated numerous times. Environmental factors due to play a MAJOR role behind our good and bad genes.

What influences genes? What makes one generation healthy than the other? What makes Asian men less susceptible to pattern baldness?

Think about it from a birds eye view. It is not rocket science. It's what we primary put in our mouths, our stress levels, our sleep cycles, our entire lifestyle.

I love to always use the Japanese as a comparison here. Compare our diets with Japan (traditional not westernized). They avoid dairy (dairy is the culprit behind many diseases include Androgenetic Alopecia, limit meat consumption (primarily eat seafood), eat 12x the daily requirement of kelp (iodine is the source of thyroid regulation which is the source and TARGET for hair density and length), they eat more soy than any other nation (I have already pointed out numerous soy studies and how they play a role in hair growth. In fact some Japanese men are androgynous, whether it's the surplus of the phytoestrogens in soy in their diets or something else, I won't be surprised.), they drink more green tea than any other nation (numerous studies on green tea suppressing DHT, prolactin, and cortisol, and other stress hormones), and walk a lot. Their eating schedules are also not erratic.

And when you look at the U.S. what do you see? Doctors against iodine because they think it raises blood pressure (yea you morons the artificial table salt but not sea salt or pure grade iodine). Soy is poison. Yea GMO soys not organic, another moronic claim. Hamburgers, pizza, dairy, dairy, dairy, dairy, red meat, red meat, red meat, fatty foods, sodas, and other sh*t, etc. Overtime, of course our ancestors who eat sh*t food and live an unbalanced shitty lifestyle will pass off those shitty genes to the next generation. If that next generation repeats the same pattern, then those problematic genes are passed the next generation...so on and so forth.

So when you refer to genetics, it's the culmination of a prolonged healthy or unhealthy lifestyle over a set number of years that determines the quality of genes we get from our grandparents and parents. However, just because someone is born with sh*t genes, doesn't mean it's their fate. That's where epigenetics come into play which can change the outcome of your gene destiny.

So its definitely true that the Western diet has way too much red meat and possibly dairy as well and we'd all do well to eat more vegetables, pretty much everything else you said is bunk. GMO soy is poison while organic is healthy? Table salt is bad for you while sea salt isn't? I'd love for you to point out the difference in chemical structure between sodium chloride from the ocean and sodium chloride from a salt shaker - which, by the way probably also came from sea water, its just been processed to remove impurities, which include mercury and uranium.

I meant to reply to your previous post, but the use of soy to prevent hair loss is questionable. It's certainly true that phytoestrogens in soy are known to be agonists for the estrogen receptors, but you'd have to eat A LOT of soy to get that any benefit. If you do get benefits from soy, it'd be from Equol, which is a metabolite of diadezin (sorry, spelling is wrong), which does actually show lots of promise. However, a special type of gut bacteria is needed which makes Equol, and most westerners do not have this bacteria and it is not entirely clear how to cultivate it. So maybe youd grow hair from soy if literally 100% of your caloric intake was from soy foods, but adding a glass of soy milk to your diet every day will have far less benefit from say, minoxidil.

I'm not trying to sh*t on soy, btw. I hope that people eat more soy and less meat and dairy since soy is more sustainable, healthier, and less cruel to animals. Soy is good. But it won't reverse balding.

Also, btw, I just wanted to point out that you saying that Japanese men are more effeminate because they eat soy is based on old racist stereotypes and is only one step away from those weirdos on Youtube who say that "soy boys" are leading to the destruction of masculinity and the downfall of western civilization or whatever

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

@Itsnoahkennedy Are you still taking meds for maintenance? I am curious to know what would happen if you stop everything for at least 12 months. Will you lose ground or the gains you attained while you were on HRT.

@JaneyElizabeth Curious to know your thoughts on this.

We often hypothesize about doing what I am doing and then making a mad dash back to the XY side, then keeping our hair with dutasteride and plowing a lot of fertile fields due to our new bodacious locks and how popular they make us. It's funny but there are not many aspects of the HRT experience that are permanent. Breast growth is often cited as the main thing that a person is "stuck" with but breasts can also deflate naturally or serms could be used. For FtMs, clitoris size can't easily be changed back but they appear to regrow their hair if they de-transition off HRT. Boy, do some of them put on some outrageous body hair everywhere below the neck. Yikes! Not even cis-males want to be bears, at least not most of them but I assume most of that body hair would be shed by FtMs.

So the cis-male person trying to pull a fast one on baldness is hampered in two main things. One, no more estrogen. Two, no more longer anagen cycle in the male context. You didn't mention whether reductase inhibitors were "legal" in this hypothetical. My feeling is that 12 months is a long time and that 3 months without meds would be pushing it without AA's, estrogen or reductase inhibitors. Right now, I am extremely sold on estradiol mono therapy and I would probably need 3 X Estrofem daily to hit targets so that is far from a difficult regime and I just don't see it in my future since I don't appear to have any real reason to make a mad dash back to maleness in the hormonal sense, lol. I appear to be more popular as Jane. So what would be the place of AA's for cis-males in the context of restoring hair loss? If they use estrogen, then seemingly, they don't need anything else so what is the point of using these AA's?

I have a feeling that they might be perceived as less feminizing although the term "feminizing" can mean different things. Personally, I found spironolactone to be overly feminizing in terms of the impact it had on my personal strength which it vastly diminished. Estrogen is more benign related to that and estrogen is also in mono therapy, from what I can tell, far less feminizing than spironolactone which caused me to have essentially no sex drive for a year and that was the best thing about spironolactone that I can say. It was nice to have a vacation from the constant male sex drive but estrogen tends to knock out the bad aspects such as fixative fantasies while keeping the ability to fantasize non-compulsively. CPA and MPA, both progestins were used on sex offenders due to their high dose effects on testosterone.

We don't want to say estrogen is good just because it is "natural" but it is a consideration. Estrogen and testosterone are quite similar chemically and they can essentially take over the other's receptors with minimal to now distinction. Both men and women have muscles for instance and females have very little circulating but they still can lift many things, do many physical activities, although less well generally than males, unless the activities involve balance, grace or being limber. In these sports, females get most of the acclaim and the male sports are less viewed. We can take E or T the rest of our lives and our bodies will sort of figure it out as long as we have one or the other.

From what I can discern, the MtF population appears to have less regrowth than I would expect. People discuss things in different fora but AA's often seem to be the villain here too.

 

[franzliszt]

We often hypothesize about doing what I am doing and then making a mad dash back to the XY side, then keeping our hair with dutasteride and plowing a lot of fertile fields due to our new bodacious locks and how popular they make us. It's funny but there are not many aspects of the HRT experience that are permanent. Breast growth is often cited as the main thing that a person is "stuck" with but breasts can also deflate naturally or serms could be used. For FtMs, clitoris size can't easily be changed back but they appear to regrow their hair if they de-transition off HRT. Boy, do some of them put on some outrageous body hair everywhere below the neck. Yikes! Not even cis-males want to be bears, at least not most of them but I assume most of that body hair would be shed by FtMs.

So the cis-male person trying to pull a fast one on baldness is hampered in two main things. One, no more estrogen. Two, no more longer anagen cycle in the male context. You didn't mention whether reductase inhibitors were "legal" in this hypothetical. My feeling is that 12 months is a long time and that 3 months without meds would be pushing it without AA's, estrogen or reductase inhibitors. Right now, I am extremely sold on estradiol mono therapy and I would probably need 3 X Estrofem daily to hit targets so that is far from a difficult regime and I just don't see it in my future since I don't appear to have any real reason to make a mad dash back to maleness in the hormonal sense, lol. I appear to be more popular as Jane. So what would be the place of AA's for cis-males in the context of restoring hair loss? If they use estrogen, then seemingly, they don't need anything else so what is the point of using these AA's?

I have a feeling that they might be perceived as less feminizing although the term "feminizing" can mean different things. Personally, I found spironolactone to be overly feminizing in terms of the impact it had on my personal strength which it vastly diminished. Estrogen is more benign related to that and estrogen is also in mono therapy, from what I can tell, far less feminizing than spironolactone which caused me to have essentially no sex drive for a year and that was the best thing about spironolactone that I can say. It was nice to have a vacation from the constant male sex drive but estrogen tends to knock out the bad aspects such as fixative fantasies while keeping the ability to fantasize non-compulsively. CPA and MPA, both progestins were used on sex offenders due to their high dose effects on testosterone.

We don't want to say estrogen is good just because it is "natural" but it is a consideration. Estrogen and testosterone are quite similar chemically and they can essentially take over the other's receptors with minimal to now distinction. Both men and women have muscles for instance and females have very little circulating but they still can lift many things, do many physical activities, although less well generally than males, unless the activities involve balance, grace or being limber. In these sports, females get most of the acclaim and the male sports are less viewed. We can take E or T the rest of our lives and our bodies will sort of figure it out as long as we have one or the other.

From what I can discern, the MtF population appears to have less regrowth than I would expect. People discuss things in different fora but AA's often seem to be the villain here too.

I had to look up MPA, do you think adding progesterone would be good for the hair? I so, at what dosing/interval and administration route? I think the hairloss hast stopped, I'm really hopeful I can get back to where I was a couple of months ago.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I didn't get baseline numbers so it won't be very interesting. All I'm concerned with is if I see breast development.

Interesting fact, Asians get their different skin color from their Eastern diet. It has nothing to do with having different genes. Also, blue eyes are caused by diets high in animal fats and dairy. All humans actually have the same genes, and our differences all come down to our lifestyle choices.

Okay, Mr. Mendel. What are alleles?

 

[John Difool]

Topical is best. Oral can convert to more T & DHT.

Progesterone Cream

Choose Empower Pharmacy for compounded Progesterone Cream. The leading accredited 503A and FDA-registered 503B compounding pharmacy.

www.empowerpharmacy.com