Finasteride Microdosing Test (0.033 Mg Ed)

[Afro_Vacancy]

I thought there was a rough consenus that it reduced serum DHT by about 30% at sufficient dosages or something. Maybe im just pulling that figure out my arse though, but if he is that scared about using finasteride that he needs to micro dose so much saw palmetto would probably work better. That's just a guess though.

I didn't know about that development but that sounds good.

What I'd like to know about SP is how it reduces 5ar in each of the scalp, blood, and brain, and which of the three types of 5ar it affects.

 

[EndlessPossibilities]

Look at the graph, the 0.04 mg dose leads to levels of 50 ng/dl, compared to 60 for the placebo.

It may be consistent with a fluke in this study, but there were other studies showing the same thing, and probabilities add in quadrature.

You keep talking about serum effect. Okay of course a low dose will have an effect but it wont give u results!! Hair results!! You need tissue saturation

 

[stachu]

Ah please be my guest and tell me where I said something that is factually wrong in this thread.

Half of your posts are bs. But whatever, keep going and good luck. Get lost now.

 

[INT]

Half of your posts are bs. But whatever, keep going and good luck. Get lost now.

That makes it even easier for you to pick an example. In the meantime, can you leave the people with the IQ score higher than their age alone and bounce?

Thanks.

 

[stachu]

That makes it even easier for you to pick an example.

Okay, ill write fast since i wont invest any time longer for you guys, cause its really funny.

I wont win this argue fights since you guys basing only on studies while its also great comedy because =

You guys be like

" No no lol, look at the studies, graphs showing 0.04mg will be superior also like normal doses bla bla you know nothing about half life of finasteride bla bla *sh*t goes on* you dont know how it works, stop spread bs, look on studies bla bla look on these beautiful curves on these figures bla bla"

Ok, and also you guys

"hahaha lool, merck sponsored these studies, no way its 2% of side effects reported lmao! its more like 50% of people, surpressing the most potent male hormone needs do develop sides bla bla look on there real PFS and horror stories on internet, its blatantly showing us how dangerous this drug is, these studies are scammed"

By the way, starting from today. I will call you guys FunnyDosers.

What a Comedy xD


Post writen directly and in a big mess since i just wont spent more time on arguing with you all here. Good luck, have fun. Love you all.

 

[ScaredOfBalding]

Okay, ill write fast since i wont invest any time longer for you guys, cause its really funny.

I wont win this argue fights since you guys basing only on studies while its also great comedy because =

You guys be like

" No no lol, look at the studies, graphs showing 0.04mg will be superior also like normal doses bla bla you know nothing about half life of finasteride bla bla *sh*t goes on* you dont know how it works, stop spread bs, look on studies bla bla look on these beautiful curves on these figures bla bla"

Ok, and also you guys

"hahaha lool, merck sponsored these studies, no way its 2% of side effects reported lmao! its more like 50% of people, surpressing the most potent male hormone needs do develop sides bla bla look on there real PFS and horror stories on internet, its blatantly showing us how dangerous this drug is, these studies are scammed"

By the way, starting from today. I will call you guys FunnyDosers.

What a Comedy xD


Post writen directly and in a big mess since i just wont spent more time on arguing with you all here. Good luck, have fun. Love you all.

Most of them are hypocrites don't mind them mate. They don't ' believe ' in finasteride studies but they blindly take info from it none the less, they also blindy follow any other studies about dermarolling, seti and other drugs as long as it is not finasteride. And they prefer animal model studies above RCTs. There is not a scientist in the world that agrees with these kids which is why finasteride is still out there.

 

[stachu]

Most of them are hypocrites don't mind them mate. They don't ' believe ' in finasteride studies but they blindly take info from it none the less, they also blindy follow any other studies about dermarolling, seti and other drugs as long as it is not finasteride. And they prefer animal model studies above RCTs. There is not a scientist in the world that agrees with these kids which is why finasteride is still out there.

I just wont spent any time longer to even trying to understand what they really want from the world and life.

 

[INT]

Okay, ill write fast since i wont invest any time longer for you guys, cause its really funny.

I wont win this argue fights since you guys basing only on studies while its also great comedy because =

You guys be like

" No no lol, look at the studies, graphs showing 0.04mg will be superior also like normal doses bla bla you know nothing about half life of finasteride bla bla *sh*t goes on* you dont know how it works, stop spread bs, look on studies bla bla look on these beautiful curves on these figures bla bla"

Ok, and also you guys

"hahaha lool, merck sponsored these studies, no way its 2% of side effects reported lmao! its more like 50% of people, surpressing the most potent male hormone needs do develop sides bla bla look on there real PFS and horror stories on internet, its blatantly showing us how dangerous this drug is, these studies are scammed"

By the way, starting from today. I will call you guys FunnyDosers.

What a Comedy xD


Post writen directly and in a big mess since i just wont spent more time on arguing with you all here. Good luck, have fun. Love you all.

I was talking about myself, I don't speak for what other people say about finasteride. Nice red herring though.

Obviously you cannot give any examples I asked for because there are none and you know you will get destroyed, since you are a barely sentient lifeform. I hope that durex pays you a lot, because you are a walking and 'talking' commercial for condoms.

 

[stachu]

I was talking about myself, I don't speak for what other people say about finasteride. Nice red herring though.

Obviously you cannot give any examples I asked for because there are none and you know you will get destroyed, since you are a barely sentient lifeform. I hope that durex pays you a lot, because you are a walking and 'talking' commercial for condoms.

seriously that was weak xD You can do better. And i would not get destroyed, just i wont go trough this since i told you how it looks when i start to argue and fight with limp noodle funnydosers clan.

You dont even have personal experience with these kind of drugs but still, you guys talk the most. Last time, get f*****g lost finally.

 

[pegasus2]

Why are people even replying to this weird guy. Leave him be - he's only crying because both finasteride/Duta don't work for him. He doesn't understand how finasteride works and has clearly developed a biased viewpoint due to his failures.

This thread is not here for debate whether microdosing finasteride works because research shows it does. It's here to see the efficacy and side-effects of microdosing finasteride when applied topically.

I'm not sure who you're referring to, but Stachu is one of the best responders on this forum. He had tremendous regrowth.

I find it odd that anyone can think the following are all true:

1. You get sexual side effects from reduction of DHT.
2. Microdosing 5-ari reduces DHT as much as a full dose.
3. Your risk of sexual side effects is reduced by microdosing 5-ari

2 out of 3 of these statements can be correct, take your pick which two. All three cannot possibly be true.

Now if you want to argue that the other sides that are unrelated to DHT can be avoided by taking a lower dose while still achieving DHT inhibition then you have something to discuss. Nobody is microdosing 5-ari to avoid those side effects though, they are doing it to avoid the sexual sides that come from reduced DHT. If you reduce the sexual sides then you also reduce the ability of the drug to combat hair loss. It's simple logic. You don't even need a study to show you that. Anyways, in the study that was done, .2mg was the lowest dose that was shown to be nearly as effective at DHT reduction as 1mg. I think taking .2mg is fine, but it's not going to give you less sexual side effects except due to the nocebo effect. If you don't get sexual sides at .2mg, but you did at 1mg, I've got news for you, you were psyching yourself into getting sides that physically weren't there.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I'm not sure who you're referring to, but Stachu is one of the best responders on this forum. He had tremendous regrowth.

I find it odd that anyone can think the following are all true:

1. You get sexual side effects from reduction of DHT.
2. Microdosing 5-ari reduces DHT as much as a full dose.
3. Your risk of sexual side effects is reduced by microdosing 5-ari

2 out of 3 of these statements can be correct, take your pick which two. All three cannot possibly be true.

Now if you want to argue that the other sides that are unrelated to DHT can be avoided by taking a lower dose while still achieving DHT inhibition then you have something to discuss. Nobody is microdosing 5-ari to avoid those side effects though, they are doing it to avoid the sexual sides that come from reduced DHT. If you reduce the sexual sides then you also reduce the ability of the drug to combat hair loss. It's simple logic. You don't even need a study to show you that. Anyways, in the study that was done, .2mg was the lowest dose that was shown to be nearly as effective at DHT reduction as 1mg. I think taking .2mg is fine, but it's not going to give you less sexual side effects except due to the nocebo effect. If you don't get sexual sides at .2mg, but you did at 1mg, I've got news for you, you were psyching yourself into getting sides that physically weren't there.

The sexual sides may partly or predominantly be due to the way that finasteride transforms neuro steroid levels.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Before and after so far. Just 1 month in though.

View attachment 134060View attachment 134061

To be honest o don't notice a difference, and further, I would never know that you're balding based off of the top pic.

 

[pegasus2]

The sexual sides may partly or predominantly be due to the way that finasteride transforms neuro steroid levels.

At least you're being creative, so I'll grant you that point. In all honesty the possibility is there, but there is no data to make the claim. Also a dose of .2mg is probably going to be effective at combating hair loss, but we don't have data to confirm that either.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

At least you're being creative, so I'll grant you that point. In all honesty the possibility is there, but there is no data to make the claim. Also a dose of .2mg is probably going to be effective at combating hair loss, but we don't have data to confirm that either.

We do have data from the Japanese study. 0.20 mg combated hair loss nearly as well as 1.0 mg, you got 95% of the effectiveness with 20% of the dose.

As for the sides, it is not known which of the dozens (hundreds?) of hormones affected by finasteride is most responsible for the sexual side effects. We do know that it's not just T, E, and DHT, as tons of people have failed to recover with hormone replace therapy.

 

[pegasus2]

We do have data from the Japanese study. 0.20 mg combated hair loss nearly as well as 1.0 mg, you got 95% of the effectiveness with 20% of the dose.

As for the sides, it is not known which of the dozens (hundreds?) of hormones affected by finasteride is most responsible for the sexual side effects. We do know that it's not just T, E, and DHT, as tons of people have failed to recover with hormone replace therapy.

I haven't read that study before, but that aligns pretty well with the relationship between DHT reduction across those doses. Just looking at it quickly it looks like it shows the degree of recovery, which might not be as favorable as the response rate.

"At 48 weeks, 58%, 54%, and 6% of men in the finasteride 1 mg, finasteride 0.2 mg, and placebo groups, respectively, had improved based on assessments of global photographs."

It's possible that something like allopregnanolone could be the problem some instances. It's also possible that there is no such thing as pfs, and that people just happened to develop ED while on the drug, and it was completely unrelated to the drug or their hormone levels. Remember that people who never took finasteride do develop ED, and that only a small fraction of the tens of millions of people on finasteride are on these forums complaining.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I haven't read that study before, but that aligns pretty well with the relationship between DHT reduction across those doses. Just looking at it quickly it looks like it shows the degree of recovery, which might not be as favorable as the response rate.

"At 48 weeks, 58%, 54%, and 6% of men in the finasteride 1 mg, finasteride 0.2 mg, and placebo groups, respectively, had improved based on assessments of global photographs."

It's possible that something like allopregnanolone could be the problem some instances. It's also possible that there is no such thing as pfs, and that people just happened to develop ED while on the drug, and it was completely unrelated to the drug or their hormone levels. Remember that people who never took finasteride do develop ED, and that only a small fraction of the tens of millions of people on finasteride are on these forums complaining.

At this point PFS is a certainty.

The distribution of severity is a question, the dose dependence is a question, the exact hormones responsible is a question, and the best treatment is a question, but there is no doubt that it's real.

I discussed it with an elite urologist recently who both publishes and referees papers on the topic. He knows all about ED, but if it were purely random he would be blaming all drugs evenly.

You'll also notice that just as many people use minoxidil but far fewer report sexual side effects. That is an effective control group. If it was just about aging men aging, you'd get exactly as many reports of post minoxidil syndrome. We don't. Only a few scattered instances.

The other way to know that PFS is real is that there is consistency to the symptoms. The survivors report a lot of the same things. It's not just ED.

One thing that I'd be curious to know is if people with more aggressive balding are more likely to get PFS, and if it correlates with hairloss pattern.

 

[pegasus2]

At this point PFS is a certainty.

The distribution of severity is a question, the dose dependence is a question, the exact hormones responsible is a question, and the best treatment is a question, but there is no doubt that it's real.

I discussed it with an elite urologist recently who both publishes and referees papers on the topic. He knows all about ED, but if it were purely random he would be blaming all drugs evenly.

You'll excuse me if I don't take one urologist's opinion as gospel. There are many others who say pfs is imaginary.

You'll also notice that just as many people use minoxidil but far fewer report sexual side effects.That is an effective control group. If it was just about aging men aging, you'd get exactly as many reports of post minoxidil syndrome. We don't. Only a few scattered instances.

Sexual side effects from finasteride are real, but the rate is very low, and they are not permanent. The fact that people don't blame minoxidil for their ED does not mean they don't develop ED while on minoxidil. The FDA does not warn that minoxidil may cause ED, so why would they blame it. If someone develops ED while taking a drug that they know may cause ED then they are going to blame the drug regardless of whether or not it's the cause.

The other way to know that PFS is real is that there is consistency to the symptoms. The survivors report a lot of the same things. It's not just ED.

One thing that I'd be curious to know is if people with more aggressive balding are more likely to get PFS, and if it correlates with hairloss pattern.

There are dozens of symptoms so it's pretty easy to take a few thousand hypochondriacs out of tens of millions of drug users, and get them to say they have 10 symptoms out of 30. That's not very convincing.

If pfs is real then why does dutasteride not cause it? It does the same thing finasteride does, only better. Yet there have been zero reports of PFS symptoms from dutasteride use except in combination with finasteride. Perhaps your urologist sees it in finasteride users because he is looking for it in finasteride users. It sounds like he may have a vested interested in propagating this fallacy.

 

[INT]

You'll excuse me if I don't take one urologist's opinion as gospel. There are many others who say pfs is imaginary.



Sexual side effects from finasteride are real, but the rate is very low, and they are not permanent. The fact that people don't blame minoxidil for their ED does not mean they don't develop ED while on minoxidil. The FDA does not warn that minoxidil may cause ED, so why would they blame it. If someone develops ED while taking a drug that they know may cause ED then they are going to blame the drug regardless of whether or not it's the cause.




There are dozens of symptoms so it's pretty easy to take a few thousand hypochondriacs out of tens of millions of drug users, and get them to say they have 10 symptoms out of 30. That's not very convincing.

If pfs is real then why does dutasteride not cause it? It does the same thing finasteride does, only better. Yet there have been zero reports of PFS symptoms from dutasteride use except in combination with finasteride. Perhaps your urologist sees it in finasteride users because he is looking for it in finasteride users. It sounds like he may have a vested interested in propagating this fallacy.

Even Merck has admitted that side effects can be persistent. Also, there have been reports of duta users as well, it just so happens to be that there are a lot fewer people that take that.

In the country where I am currently living I have spoken to 2 urologists and both believed in PFS.

Anyway, OP told us what he wanted to discuss and what not, let's all respect that and stay ontopic.

 

[pegasus2]

Even Merck has admitted that side effects can be persistent. Also, there have been reports of duta users as well, it just so happens to be that there are a lot fewer people that take that.

In the country where I am currently living I have spoken to 2 urologists and both believed in PFS.

Anyway, OP told us what he wanted to discuss and what not, let's all respect that and stay ontopic.

There actually has been one case reported now for dutasteride. Literally less than one in a million. That's some real believable stuff right there.

"PFS has emerged from reports of non-dermatologists, neuroendocrinological research and reflections, and uncontrolled studies of low quality and with a strong bias selection, while a significant nocebo effect among patients informed about possible side effects"
"We report the first case of PFS in a long-standing (over 20 years) dermatotrichological practice with frequent finasteride prescription observed in a 25-year-old male following dutasteride treatment for male androgenetic alopecia. There was circumstantial evidence that PFS may represent a delusional disorder of the somatic type, possibly on a background of a histrionic personality disorder, which would explain the refractoriness of the condition and a high degree of suggestibility."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31559258

In other words, people who have PFS were just crazy to begin with.

"2,048 monotherapy cases using 5ARIs were identified with 1581 being finasteride 1mg, 240 5mg, and 226 of unreported doses. Overall there was an increase event reporting as time progressed with the majority of these involving the 1mg dose. Finasteride was associated with many sexual side effects: decreased libido, ejaculatory disorder, erectile dysfunction, testicular atrophy, orgasmic disorders, hypogonadism, and overall increased sexual complaints. Other common complaints were dermatologic in nature (dry skin or thinning of skin) as well as changes in metabolism (weight gain, elevated glucose, and elevated lipids). Psychological/neurologic conditions of self-harm (suicide), slow cognition, psychological pathologies, emotional anhedonia, insomnia and overall psychological symptoms were prevalent with finasteride use. One mg of finasteride demonstrated more adverse events than the 5mg in the following areas: sexual dysfunction, libido decrease, ejaculation disorders, erectile dysfunction, testicular atrophy, hypogonadism, skin abnormalities, metabolic abnormalities, self-harm, slow cognition, depression, anxiety, emotional anhedonia, and insomnia. Dutasteride was never reported to cause a PFS-like symptom.

Conclusions

FAERS data suggests that finasteride is associated with a diverse collection of symptoms, particularly in the 1 mg dosage. Dutasteride was not implicated for PFS, resulting in only one AE report. Whether or not PFS is real or imagined is not discernable within this context and database.
https://university.auanet.org/abstract_detail.cfm?id=MP89-08&meetingID=16SAN"

Merck admits to persistent side effects, not pfs, and you know the difference. Two more doctors who believe in pfs isn't much of an argument. The medical community as a whole does not believe in it.

"As yet, the condition is not recognized by the medical community"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31559258

 

[INT]

There actually has been one case reported now for dutasteride. Literally less than one in a million. That's some real believable stuff right there.


"PFS has emerged from reports of non-dermatologists, neuroendocrinological research and reflections, and uncontrolled studies of low quality and with a strong bias selection, while a significant nocebo effect among patients informed about possible side effects"
"We report the first case of PFS in a long-standing (over 20 years) dermatotrichological practice with frequent finasteride prescription observed in a 25-year-old male following dutasteride treatment for male androgenetic alopecia. There was circumstantial evidence that PFS may represent a delusional disorder of the somatic type, possibly on a background of a histrionic personality disorder, which would explain the refractoriness of the condition and a high degree of suggestibility."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31559258

In other words, people who have PFS were just crazy to begin with.

"2,048 monotherapy cases using 5ARIs were identified with 1581 being finasteride 1mg, 240 5mg, and 226 of unreported doses. Overall there was an increase event reporting as time progressed with the majority of these involving the 1mg dose. Finasteride was associated with many sexual side effects: decreased libido, ejaculatory disorder, erectile dysfunction, testicular atrophy, orgasmic disorders, hypogonadism, and overall increased sexual complaints. Other common complaints were dermatologic in nature (dry skin or thinning of skin) as well as changes in metabolism (weight gain, elevated glucose, and elevated lipids). Psychological/neurologic conditions of self-harm (suicide), slow cognition, psychological pathologies, emotional anhedonia, insomnia and overall psychological symptoms were prevalent with finasteride use. One mg of finasteride demonstrated more adverse events than the 5mg in the following areas: sexual dysfunction, libido decrease, ejaculation disorders, erectile dysfunction, testicular atrophy, hypogonadism, skin abnormalities, metabolic abnormalities, self-harm, slow cognition, depression, anxiety, emotional anhedonia, and insomnia. Dutasteride was never reported to cause a PFS-like symptom.

Conclusions

FAERS data suggests that finasteride is associated with a diverse collection of symptoms, particularly in the 1 mg dosage. Dutasteride was not implicated for PFS, resulting in only one AE report. Whether or not PFS is real or imagined is not discernable within this context and database.
https://university.auanet.org/abstract_detail.cfm?id=MP89-08&meetingID=16SAN"

Merck admits to persistent side effects, not pfs, and you know the difference. Two more doctors who believe in pfs isn't much of an argument. The medical community as a whole does not believe in it.

"As yet, the condition is not recognized by the medical community"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31559258

You don't need to convince me that PFS is still not fully accepted by big parts of the medical community. I know that that is the current reality of the situation. Time will tell if it one day will be. And there is no clear definition of PFS, for me it is just a blanket term for persisting side effects after quitting the drug.

If you want to continue to talk about it we can do that in another thread but for here, let's respect OP's wishes and keep this topic about the effect of microdosing topical finasteride and not about the legitimacy of PFS.