juggernaut
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And I guess when u found a pair of shoes in a shoebox you were shocked?TheOne said:
Follica - Good News!
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juggernaut
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TheOne said:
Done, i just pm u a personal apology. please check
michael barry
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Juggernaut,
Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe all you know about follica is from the video.
Now Im going to tell you "the rest of the story".
Read this from Tressless.com: http://tressless.com/blog/2008/03/02/re ... tem-cells/
Regrowing hair with self-mutilation, Jackalopes and stem cells
By Peter, on March 2nd, 2008
50 years ago, the late cancer researcher Charles Breedis was taking a scalpel to the backs of rabbits at a University of Pennsylvania lab. Under a grant by the National Cancer Institute, he was investigating the link between healing and the Shope papilloma virus, a carcinogenic pathogen similar to HPV in humans.
The hide of each animal was excised down to the subcutis, a layer of loose connective tissue beneath surface skin, comprised mostly of insulatory fat. A glass chamber was placed over the wound that held the skin open, leaving only lymph secretion and scabbing to pool over the damage.
The Shope virus was a popular study in most cancer labs. It was discovered in the 1930s and proved with finality that warts are caused by viruses. It was easy to infect the host animal, cottontailed rabbits, and at the time was the only model to study viral carcinogenesis. The excitement over the virus grew to such a fever pitch that it was carried over into human trials, being used on two mentally handicapped German children with a rare genetic disease in what has been billed as the world’s first genetic engineering experiment.
The virus is also thought to be the source of Lepus cornutus, the Jackalope mythology, a kitschy American and Western European icon of an antlered rabbit. If left unchecked, it causes scaly protrusions that branch outward from the animal’s body, sometimes resembling antlers.
There were no antlers in the lab this time, but Breedis had undoubtedly found surprise in a much subtler sort of growth. Publishing his findings in a then 13 year old Cancer Research journal, he noted an unexpected behavior that would be disregarded for half a century: “It is concluded that scar epithelium … is capable of redifferentiating into hair follicles and sebaceous glands.â€
Dr. Breedis had observed the first recorded instance of follicular neogenesis, a phenomenon in which new, fully functioning hair organs develop as a biproduct of trauma to the body.
Articles recently splashed with claims such as “Skin cells have been primed to regrow hair follicles for the first time†(The Guardian), “New Hope For Baldness Treatment: Hair Follicles Created For First Time†(Science Daily), and “First demonstration of new hair follicle generation†(PR release) carried more than a little unintentional hyperbole, but that probably doesn’t bother the accolade’s recipient, Dr. George Cotsarelis. He has rediscovered follicular neogenesis in the very same University of Pennsylvania. It seems the Breedis tomes had been lost to dogma in his own alma mater: “We noticed that after wounding the mice, they developed hair in the middle of the wound,†Cotsarelis said in an interview with ABC Australia, “So we thought something had gone wrong.â€
The concept had risen from the ether, just as our would-be Jackelope’s fur had done so many years ago, and the idea that skin cells can be coaxed into transformation is now mainstream and well accepted.
Cotsarelis has led the charge to commercialize the concept this time around. He is listed as a co-inventor on the patent owned by the University, and is a co-founder, board member and advisor in a start-up company called Follica that has licensed the same patent. Cotsarelis also has his hands in Aderans Research, a leading institute in hair multiplication that is associated with Bosley.
It’s been long speculated that our ability to regenerate ourselves was lost somewhere in the evolutionary ladder. In its place, we gained scarring’s quick fix and the infection-fighting powers of inflammation. We do still have some limited regeneration abilities: children before the age of ten can grow back fingertips, an adult’s liver will regenerate itself if enough of the original is left, and ribs are harvested for source material in graft surgeries because they grow back under specific circumstances.
Embryos are another story. Animals, including humans, in an embryonic state will heal almost perfectly when injured within the womb. Around 16 weeks we lose the ability as our immune system begins to rise in power. It had never been conclusively shown that an adult human can regenerate anything near this capacity until very recently.
Damage to the skin activates growth factors which include a class of around 20 proteins known collectively as Wnt. “Wnt†is a concatenation of the Wingless and Int genes, two separate discoveries. Genetic Gemini of sorts, they share parts in a gamut of interactions, from embryo growth to cancer. Duplicity is written into their nature, just as these wounds give rise to new life.
Follica’s plan is to wound the scalp with something akin to dermabrasion, then nourish the skin with unnatural amounts of Wnt, coaxing new hair out of the otherwise dormant skin.
Other companies are taking very different approaches to the same regenerative end.
Last year, an internet forum user named Raptor posting on a hair loss board emphatically suggested “THERE IS ALREADY A PRODUCT AVAILABLE that can help us to restore our lost hairâ€, but that “red tape must be cut to attain itâ€. He was referring to ACell, a Maryland-based company with a veterinary product that has been otherwise mired in litigation since 2002. The company now has several FDA clearances and is finally gaining some momentum.
Raptor’s point of inspiration was likely the publicized rehabilitation of injured animals shown completely healed from devastating wounds, including hair that seamlessly crawls across what would otherwise be scar tissue. It was suggested that ACell be applied after cosmetic hair transplants, potentially regrowing hair in the small holes that are left from the extraction site. This would effectively be an unlimited supply of hair, multiple surgeries be damned.
Extracellular matrices, the technology behind ACell’s product, have actually been over 20 years in the making within regenerative medicine. Stephen Badylak first discovered the strange behavior while working a Purdue University lab. From this work, matrices have been used in humans since the 90s in upwards of half a million people. It usually comes in the form of sheet-like patches known as grafts which are applied directly to a wound, internal or external.
An extracellular matrix is the scaffolding that cells are held in and communicate through, though it serves many other functions, including managing growth factors and influencing the development, migration and shape of the cells around it. It’s the supporting cast by which the main actors would have no play without.
The real coup comes when the matrix is extracted and placed locally into a wound site. Signaling molecules go to work, redirecting stem cells to create new tissue, blood vessels, hair, sometimes even new bone. The matrix puts the patient’s wound into an embryonic state. Little known to the patients, the product is actually a mucosal membrane removed from animal innards. A big blanket of sausage casing.
Strangely, even a matrix from a different species yields the same results when placed in a wound. Rejection is said to not be a problem because it lacks the regular cells that are detected and attacked by the host body, and Badylak has been cited as saying that no significant side effects have been found in the decades of research.
The patents were first licensed out for orthopedic use to what is now a division of Johnson and Johnson, but are currently being used in multiple companies with many applications. Cook Group Inc., is one such company, basing its more than 100 products on the technology. Their “OASIS Wound Matrix†product alone is “indicated for use in all partial and full thickness wounds and skin loss injuries as well as superficial and second-degree
.
In the 1970's, legendary researcher Dr. Authur Kligman, noted that some acne dermabrasion patients seemed to have de noveau follicle growth on their faces...................
George Cotsarialis, who used to work on hair multiplication, no doubt got tired of the mountainous task HM has turned out to be. In case you dont know, years ago it was predicted that HM would be here in "just a few years" after Dolly the cloned sheep. Aderans and ICX set up shop and were very confident in it. Dr. Walter Ungerer, Dr. Jerry Cooley were also docs involved as well as Dr. Ken Washenik, and Dr. Kurt Stenn, and Dr. Paul Kemp and a few others. Its turned out to be a martyrs task since Colin Jahoda first showed dermal cells alone could induce a new hair to form in his then wife's (Amanda Reynolds--a blonde) arm from one of his own (black hair then, now grey) head hairs in 1984. Its just hard to make it go. They are even trying to have hair cells multiplied and grown into proto-hairs at Aderans now in an attempt to make it happen. Obviously just shooting up bald scalp with dp cells and other hair-inductive cells just isn't that successful, or it would have been out by now. Cotsarialis knew about the wounding all along.
No matter what Cotsarialis claims......................BELIEVE me, he knew what was giong to happen when he abraded that first mouse's skin (or deeply suspected it).
Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe all you know about follica is from the video.
Now Im going to tell you "the rest of the story".
Read this from Tressless.com: http://tressless.com/blog/2008/03/02/re ... tem-cells/
Regrowing hair with self-mutilation, Jackalopes and stem cells
By Peter, on March 2nd, 2008
50 years ago, the late cancer researcher Charles Breedis was taking a scalpel to the backs of rabbits at a University of Pennsylvania lab. Under a grant by the National Cancer Institute, he was investigating the link between healing and the Shope papilloma virus, a carcinogenic pathogen similar to HPV in humans.
The hide of each animal was excised down to the subcutis, a layer of loose connective tissue beneath surface skin, comprised mostly of insulatory fat. A glass chamber was placed over the wound that held the skin open, leaving only lymph secretion and scabbing to pool over the damage.
The Shope virus was a popular study in most cancer labs. It was discovered in the 1930s and proved with finality that warts are caused by viruses. It was easy to infect the host animal, cottontailed rabbits, and at the time was the only model to study viral carcinogenesis. The excitement over the virus grew to such a fever pitch that it was carried over into human trials, being used on two mentally handicapped German children with a rare genetic disease in what has been billed as the world’s first genetic engineering experiment.
The virus is also thought to be the source of Lepus cornutus, the Jackalope mythology, a kitschy American and Western European icon of an antlered rabbit. If left unchecked, it causes scaly protrusions that branch outward from the animal’s body, sometimes resembling antlers.
There were no antlers in the lab this time, but Breedis had undoubtedly found surprise in a much subtler sort of growth. Publishing his findings in a then 13 year old Cancer Research journal, he noted an unexpected behavior that would be disregarded for half a century: “It is concluded that scar epithelium … is capable of redifferentiating into hair follicles and sebaceous glands.â€
Dr. Breedis had observed the first recorded instance of follicular neogenesis, a phenomenon in which new, fully functioning hair organs develop as a biproduct of trauma to the body.
Articles recently splashed with claims such as “Skin cells have been primed to regrow hair follicles for the first time†(The Guardian), “New Hope For Baldness Treatment: Hair Follicles Created For First Time†(Science Daily), and “First demonstration of new hair follicle generation†(PR release) carried more than a little unintentional hyperbole, but that probably doesn’t bother the accolade’s recipient, Dr. George Cotsarelis. He has rediscovered follicular neogenesis in the very same University of Pennsylvania. It seems the Breedis tomes had been lost to dogma in his own alma mater: “We noticed that after wounding the mice, they developed hair in the middle of the wound,†Cotsarelis said in an interview with ABC Australia, “So we thought something had gone wrong.â€
The concept had risen from the ether, just as our would-be Jackelope’s fur had done so many years ago, and the idea that skin cells can be coaxed into transformation is now mainstream and well accepted.
Cotsarelis has led the charge to commercialize the concept this time around. He is listed as a co-inventor on the patent owned by the University, and is a co-founder, board member and advisor in a start-up company called Follica that has licensed the same patent. Cotsarelis also has his hands in Aderans Research, a leading institute in hair multiplication that is associated with Bosley.
It’s been long speculated that our ability to regenerate ourselves was lost somewhere in the evolutionary ladder. In its place, we gained scarring’s quick fix and the infection-fighting powers of inflammation. We do still have some limited regeneration abilities: children before the age of ten can grow back fingertips, an adult’s liver will regenerate itself if enough of the original is left, and ribs are harvested for source material in graft surgeries because they grow back under specific circumstances.
Embryos are another story. Animals, including humans, in an embryonic state will heal almost perfectly when injured within the womb. Around 16 weeks we lose the ability as our immune system begins to rise in power. It had never been conclusively shown that an adult human can regenerate anything near this capacity until very recently.
Damage to the skin activates growth factors which include a class of around 20 proteins known collectively as Wnt. “Wnt†is a concatenation of the Wingless and Int genes, two separate discoveries. Genetic Gemini of sorts, they share parts in a gamut of interactions, from embryo growth to cancer. Duplicity is written into their nature, just as these wounds give rise to new life.
Follica’s plan is to wound the scalp with something akin to dermabrasion, then nourish the skin with unnatural amounts of Wnt, coaxing new hair out of the otherwise dormant skin.
Other companies are taking very different approaches to the same regenerative end.
Last year, an internet forum user named Raptor posting on a hair loss board emphatically suggested “THERE IS ALREADY A PRODUCT AVAILABLE that can help us to restore our lost hairâ€, but that “red tape must be cut to attain itâ€. He was referring to ACell, a Maryland-based company with a veterinary product that has been otherwise mired in litigation since 2002. The company now has several FDA clearances and is finally gaining some momentum.
Raptor’s point of inspiration was likely the publicized rehabilitation of injured animals shown completely healed from devastating wounds, including hair that seamlessly crawls across what would otherwise be scar tissue. It was suggested that ACell be applied after cosmetic hair transplants, potentially regrowing hair in the small holes that are left from the extraction site. This would effectively be an unlimited supply of hair, multiple surgeries be damned.
Extracellular matrices, the technology behind ACell’s product, have actually been over 20 years in the making within regenerative medicine. Stephen Badylak first discovered the strange behavior while working a Purdue University lab. From this work, matrices have been used in humans since the 90s in upwards of half a million people. It usually comes in the form of sheet-like patches known as grafts which are applied directly to a wound, internal or external.
An extracellular matrix is the scaffolding that cells are held in and communicate through, though it serves many other functions, including managing growth factors and influencing the development, migration and shape of the cells around it. It’s the supporting cast by which the main actors would have no play without.
The real coup comes when the matrix is extracted and placed locally into a wound site. Signaling molecules go to work, redirecting stem cells to create new tissue, blood vessels, hair, sometimes even new bone. The matrix puts the patient’s wound into an embryonic state. Little known to the patients, the product is actually a mucosal membrane removed from animal innards. A big blanket of sausage casing.
Strangely, even a matrix from a different species yields the same results when placed in a wound. Rejection is said to not be a problem because it lacks the regular cells that are detected and attacked by the host body, and Badylak has been cited as saying that no significant side effects have been found in the decades of research.
The patents were first licensed out for orthopedic use to what is now a division of Johnson and Johnson, but are currently being used in multiple companies with many applications. Cook Group Inc., is one such company, basing its more than 100 products on the technology. Their “OASIS Wound Matrix†product alone is “indicated for use in all partial and full thickness wounds and skin loss injuries as well as superficial and second-degree
.
In the 1970's, legendary researcher Dr. Authur Kligman, noted that some acne dermabrasion patients seemed to have de noveau follicle growth on their faces...................
George Cotsarialis, who used to work on hair multiplication, no doubt got tired of the mountainous task HM has turned out to be. In case you dont know, years ago it was predicted that HM would be here in "just a few years" after Dolly the cloned sheep. Aderans and ICX set up shop and were very confident in it. Dr. Walter Ungerer, Dr. Jerry Cooley were also docs involved as well as Dr. Ken Washenik, and Dr. Kurt Stenn, and Dr. Paul Kemp and a few others. Its turned out to be a martyrs task since Colin Jahoda first showed dermal cells alone could induce a new hair to form in his then wife's (Amanda Reynolds--a blonde) arm from one of his own (black hair then, now grey) head hairs in 1984. Its just hard to make it go. They are even trying to have hair cells multiplied and grown into proto-hairs at Aderans now in an attempt to make it happen. Obviously just shooting up bald scalp with dp cells and other hair-inductive cells just isn't that successful, or it would have been out by now. Cotsarialis knew about the wounding all along.
No matter what Cotsarialis claims......................BELIEVE me, he knew what was giong to happen when he abraded that first mouse's skin (or deeply suspected it).
Don't mean to derail the history lessons (as they are interesting), but have any of you found anything about silymarin?
I tried my google-paws on it, but honestly didn't dig very deep. It's entirely possible it's a substance that hasn't been tested for the information we want out of it, though that may be presumptious to say.
I'm thinking about ordering some (it's very cheap) and do a small patch again on my temple. Don't know if I should add lithium this time.. it would be beneficial if I didn't for sure, but I guess I'm anxious to discover something effective. On the other hand the whole procedure (partly because of all the stuff Follica mentioned in their patent) is activated when certain elements are present, and any excess elements (or volumes of them) end up doing nothing, rather than being a negative influence.
Then again, that's just guess-work. I'm basing it solely on the many variations that new hair seem to emerge under, with the only red thread being open-healed wounding. The only thing I'm still wary of, is the difference between mice and people with male pattern baldness. According to Harold's cited study, the new mice-hair was close to, or just as, thick as surrounding fur, whereas the hair I have gotten out of my two tries (lithium in one, plucking before + lithium and caffeine in the other) while noticable, are not as dense as existing scalp hair, and far from the density of the hair on the side of my head. If it were, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, and most likely, the whole wounding thing would have been a known hairloss-treatment ages ago.
It's quite obvious that human hair is different from mice fur, and even more different when male pattern baldness is thrown into the mix and complicates everything. Though we seem to have this back and forth regarding WnT-upregulating (and even inhibiting now?) I guess the two constants are still dermabrasion (in most forms) + EGFR-inhibitor - which is why it's imperative that easy to get stuff like silymarin get a closer look. Does it act as an EGFR-inhibitor without inhibiting WnT? How is its' solubility? How well does the skin absorb it, if at all?
Unfortunately my own ability to research it is rather limited. Thus I hope someone else can chim in. Either way, I'm kinda interested in testing it out, though it would be a more robust experience if the substance wasn't so shrouded.
Now that my second abrasion has had time to grow, I can say that it is absolutely better than my first dermabrasion, both in number of hairs and (perhaps most importantly) coverage. Though the second dermabrasion was smaller than the first, I would still say the per-cm gain was higher the second time around. I can't say the exact net gain, but I would guess it's about 130%, if the first dermabrasion was a baseline 100% (so up a third, if you don't want to be so convoluted). Don't know if that makes sense, but what I'm saying is that I would not be willing to describe it as the hopeful "twice as good!", but definately markedly better than my first try.
Knowing the little I know, I would have to say that it was the plucking of the hair a day or two prior to dermabrasion, rather than caffeine, that did the trick. Though caffeine is probably good too, and as it is so cheap it's not cost-prohibited. It's multi-functional too (like acid peels), so you don't have to feel silly for purchasing any quantity of it.
I think in order to get this whole operation to work, we need to add in steps things that work. It's by now pretty clear that this (the procedure as a whole) will not work as smoothly as on mice, regarding density and hair-count and such.
Though I know a more isolated experimentation of each step is more insightful, I don't know how fruitful that is to demand of people (not that anyone has). I guess the most practical thing is to borrow what we each learn from eachothers' venture, and add it to the sum total. So far dermabrasion is thumbs up. And now plucking is thumbs up. Nothing we haven't already known about, but it's comforting to see the result of it on your own head. Since the jury is still out on just what upregulating WnT does to the whole procedure - and the fact that I only have lithium as a crude analog to Follica proteins - I guess I'll leave it in for now.
If the kit-patent is any indication, once we find a good EGFR-inhibitor I think lithium is the first thing that will be made obsolete though.
I tried my google-paws on it, but honestly didn't dig very deep. It's entirely possible it's a substance that hasn't been tested for the information we want out of it, though that may be presumptious to say.
I'm thinking about ordering some (it's very cheap) and do a small patch again on my temple. Don't know if I should add lithium this time.. it would be beneficial if I didn't for sure, but I guess I'm anxious to discover something effective. On the other hand the whole procedure (partly because of all the stuff Follica mentioned in their patent) is activated when certain elements are present, and any excess elements (or volumes of them) end up doing nothing, rather than being a negative influence.
Then again, that's just guess-work. I'm basing it solely on the many variations that new hair seem to emerge under, with the only red thread being open-healed wounding. The only thing I'm still wary of, is the difference between mice and people with male pattern baldness. According to Harold's cited study, the new mice-hair was close to, or just as, thick as surrounding fur, whereas the hair I have gotten out of my two tries (lithium in one, plucking before + lithium and caffeine in the other) while noticable, are not as dense as existing scalp hair, and far from the density of the hair on the side of my head. If it were, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, and most likely, the whole wounding thing would have been a known hairloss-treatment ages ago.
It's quite obvious that human hair is different from mice fur, and even more different when male pattern baldness is thrown into the mix and complicates everything. Though we seem to have this back and forth regarding WnT-upregulating (and even inhibiting now?) I guess the two constants are still dermabrasion (in most forms) + EGFR-inhibitor - which is why it's imperative that easy to get stuff like silymarin get a closer look. Does it act as an EGFR-inhibitor without inhibiting WnT? How is its' solubility? How well does the skin absorb it, if at all?
Unfortunately my own ability to research it is rather limited. Thus I hope someone else can chim in. Either way, I'm kinda interested in testing it out, though it would be a more robust experience if the substance wasn't so shrouded.
Now that my second abrasion has had time to grow, I can say that it is absolutely better than my first dermabrasion, both in number of hairs and (perhaps most importantly) coverage. Though the second dermabrasion was smaller than the first, I would still say the per-cm gain was higher the second time around. I can't say the exact net gain, but I would guess it's about 130%, if the first dermabrasion was a baseline 100% (so up a third, if you don't want to be so convoluted). Don't know if that makes sense, but what I'm saying is that I would not be willing to describe it as the hopeful "twice as good!", but definately markedly better than my first try.
Knowing the little I know, I would have to say that it was the plucking of the hair a day or two prior to dermabrasion, rather than caffeine, that did the trick. Though caffeine is probably good too, and as it is so cheap it's not cost-prohibited. It's multi-functional too (like acid peels), so you don't have to feel silly for purchasing any quantity of it.
I think in order to get this whole operation to work, we need to add in steps things that work. It's by now pretty clear that this (the procedure as a whole) will not work as smoothly as on mice, regarding density and hair-count and such.
Though I know a more isolated experimentation of each step is more insightful, I don't know how fruitful that is to demand of people (not that anyone has). I guess the most practical thing is to borrow what we each learn from eachothers' venture, and add it to the sum total. So far dermabrasion is thumbs up. And now plucking is thumbs up. Nothing we haven't already known about, but it's comforting to see the result of it on your own head. Since the jury is still out on just what upregulating WnT does to the whole procedure - and the fact that I only have lithium as a crude analog to Follica proteins - I guess I'll leave it in for now.
If the kit-patent is any indication, once we find a good EGFR-inhibitor I think lithium is the first thing that will be made obsolete though.
biancolone
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Sorry, just a couple of points.
In the new patent they didn't mentioned lithium. In the other patent (WO/2006/105109) when lithium was mentioned, if I don't make interpretation's mistake, it's *alternative* to EGFR
inibhitor:
They don't write in any part of the text something like lithium compound *and* EGFR inibhitor, while in the new patent they do this (EGFR inibhitor *and* an active ingredient, like minoxidil).
Is it not possible that from the old patient to the new one, they find that the way to go is EGFR inibhitor and own wnt stimulation derived from the abrasion?
Thanks
In the new patent they didn't mentioned lithium. In the other patent (WO/2006/105109) when lithium was mentioned, if I don't make interpretation's mistake, it's *alternative* to EGFR
inibhitor:
They don't write in any part of the text something like lithium compound *and* EGFR inibhitor, while in the new patent they do this (EGFR inibhitor *and* an active ingredient, like minoxidil).
Is it not possible that from the old patient to the new one, they find that the way to go is EGFR inibhitor and own wnt stimulation derived from the abrasion?
Thanks
I don't think lithium (or any WnT-upregulator) has ever been presented as an *alternative* to EGFR-inhibition. Wounding and EGFR-inhibition has always been the two combinations that most consistently, through all of this, have presented themself.
My experiments are not unique -a lot of other people have put lithium on their head and wounded and such, and the results are pretty much the same. Was it enough, we would have seen good regrowth by now. Instead it's merely mediocre, but interesting in and of itself as a proof of concept.
I think the general consesus has always been that an EGFR-inhibitor is the most important factor in all this, and that lithium was used (by home-users) as the easiest thing to obtain, and may still play some role in all this. All the more reasons to find good (and preferably cheap) EGFR-inhibitors, wheter natural or synthetic.
My experiments are not unique -a lot of other people have put lithium on their head and wounded and such, and the results are pretty much the same. Was it enough, we would have seen good regrowth by now. Instead it's merely mediocre, but interesting in and of itself as a proof of concept.
I think the general consesus has always been that an EGFR-inhibitor is the most important factor in all this, and that lithium was used (by home-users) as the easiest thing to obtain, and may still play some role in all this. All the more reasons to find good (and preferably cheap) EGFR-inhibitors, wheter natural or synthetic.
I've recently been looking at the first of two halves of Follica's patent, dermabrasion. like i said before i've read all the posts on this forum now and have realised that we haven't reached anything near conensus on what I consider the simplest element, skin wounding.
We don't seem to know what degree of wounding or reepithelialization is required, so i've gone ahead and tried to answer the question myself.
The Follica patent makes reference to the epidermis and as far as I have seen only once to the dermis as far as some form of abrading is concerned. Based on the Follica patent only healing of the epidermis is required to stimulate HF by way of induced activation of stem cells to create HF as well as skin.
Whilst I can understand the meaning of the above, I have had difficulty understanding how wounding of the epidermis through some form of abrasion could create HF in the dermis; after all the dermis is where the HF resides in the first place so surely wounding of the dermis is required also (but no comment to this effect is made in the patent). The above statement is noteworthy when, as I understand it the cells that create the epidermis are essentially those same cells contained in the dermis that migrate toward the surface and in doing so undergo a process which results in the formation of the epidermal layer. It seems to be that we are essentially seeing an expulsion of old cells to form a protective layer.
Nevertheless, I’ve done a bit more research (of the google variety) and have come across some work by Cotsarelis et al in 1999. The research was continued up to 2004 (as far as I can find) and this quote summarises nicely:
“During embryonic development and epidermis formation, a series of signals between the surface epithelial cells and the underlying dermal cells generate hair placodes in the epidermis (reviewed by Hardy, 1992; Paus and Cotsarelis, 1999; Millar, 2002; Rogers, 2004). These placodes subsequently give rise to the lineages for all the hair follicle layers that ultimately differentiate into the hair shaft and inner root sheath (Hardy, 1992; Figure 1). The hair follicles vary in size and shape depending on their location. The cycling and regeneration of each hair follicle depend on specialized mesenchymal dermal papilla cells and proliferating matrix cells located at the base of the follicle. During normal development, each hair follicle goes through three stages: growth (anagen), involution (catagen) and rest (telogen) (Paus and Cotsarelis, 1999; Figure 1). After the resting telogen period, signals from the dermal papilla cells initiate the regeneration of a new hair.â€
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1283090
As I understand the above quote (and the paper generally), the cells of the dermis are not simply expelled outward to form the epidermis but are recycled with other components (that exist in the pre-corny layer of the epidermis) to create a layer of skin entirely distinct with important functions to play. Now for the interesting part, when the epidermis is wounded, inducing activation of epithelial stem cells, the wounded area returns to an embryonic state (to what degree I do not know) and in doing so the wounded epidermis and dermis communicate a repair process and start to produce new skin and all the structures that exist in skin such as the hair shaft and inner root sheath (essentially the producing elements of the hair on the top of your head, and sebaceous glands one would assume).
So in conclusion, the required level or reepithelialization to produce HF is equal to the wounding of the epidermis, and the epidermis alone.
Note: that wounding causes communication between epidermis and dermis, could Minoxidil working as a channel opener augment communication?
I've had a brief look into what methods can effectively wound the epidermis that are safe, relatively easy to do without complication and are readily available and can be performed at home. Without going into all the detail here and now, I would probably go for Trichloroacetic Acid. It disrupts the epidermis and does not appear to affect the dermis, it has a relatively short healing time of 5 -7 days, it can be use repetitively at intervals of 28 days, it is used frequently in cosmetic facial peels and it has been used on bald scalps to reduce the appearance of sunpots and sun aged skin. In respect of concentrations of this acid the average level for cosmetic procedures is between 15% - 25% and 30% in some case. 50% THC seems to available in order to dilute to lower concentrations, reducing costs. Also THC can be carried in water which makes this acid even easier for the homebrewer.
We don't seem to know what degree of wounding or reepithelialization is required, so i've gone ahead and tried to answer the question myself.
The Follica patent makes reference to the epidermis and as far as I have seen only once to the dermis as far as some form of abrading is concerned. Based on the Follica patent only healing of the epidermis is required to stimulate HF by way of induced activation of stem cells to create HF as well as skin.
Whilst I can understand the meaning of the above, I have had difficulty understanding how wounding of the epidermis through some form of abrasion could create HF in the dermis; after all the dermis is where the HF resides in the first place so surely wounding of the dermis is required also (but no comment to this effect is made in the patent). The above statement is noteworthy when, as I understand it the cells that create the epidermis are essentially those same cells contained in the dermis that migrate toward the surface and in doing so undergo a process which results in the formation of the epidermal layer. It seems to be that we are essentially seeing an expulsion of old cells to form a protective layer.
Nevertheless, I’ve done a bit more research (of the google variety) and have come across some work by Cotsarelis et al in 1999. The research was continued up to 2004 (as far as I can find) and this quote summarises nicely:
“During embryonic development and epidermis formation, a series of signals between the surface epithelial cells and the underlying dermal cells generate hair placodes in the epidermis (reviewed by Hardy, 1992; Paus and Cotsarelis, 1999; Millar, 2002; Rogers, 2004). These placodes subsequently give rise to the lineages for all the hair follicle layers that ultimately differentiate into the hair shaft and inner root sheath (Hardy, 1992; Figure 1). The hair follicles vary in size and shape depending on their location. The cycling and regeneration of each hair follicle depend on specialized mesenchymal dermal papilla cells and proliferating matrix cells located at the base of the follicle. During normal development, each hair follicle goes through three stages: growth (anagen), involution (catagen) and rest (telogen) (Paus and Cotsarelis, 1999; Figure 1). After the resting telogen period, signals from the dermal papilla cells initiate the regeneration of a new hair.â€
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1283090
As I understand the above quote (and the paper generally), the cells of the dermis are not simply expelled outward to form the epidermis but are recycled with other components (that exist in the pre-corny layer of the epidermis) to create a layer of skin entirely distinct with important functions to play. Now for the interesting part, when the epidermis is wounded, inducing activation of epithelial stem cells, the wounded area returns to an embryonic state (to what degree I do not know) and in doing so the wounded epidermis and dermis communicate a repair process and start to produce new skin and all the structures that exist in skin such as the hair shaft and inner root sheath (essentially the producing elements of the hair on the top of your head, and sebaceous glands one would assume).
So in conclusion, the required level or reepithelialization to produce HF is equal to the wounding of the epidermis, and the epidermis alone.
Note: that wounding causes communication between epidermis and dermis, could Minoxidil working as a channel opener augment communication?
I've had a brief look into what methods can effectively wound the epidermis that are safe, relatively easy to do without complication and are readily available and can be performed at home. Without going into all the detail here and now, I would probably go for Trichloroacetic Acid. It disrupts the epidermis and does not appear to affect the dermis, it has a relatively short healing time of 5 -7 days, it can be use repetitively at intervals of 28 days, it is used frequently in cosmetic facial peels and it has been used on bald scalps to reduce the appearance of sunpots and sun aged skin. In respect of concentrations of this acid the average level for cosmetic procedures is between 15% - 25% and 30% in some case. 50% THC seems to available in order to dilute to lower concentrations, reducing costs. Also THC can be carried in water which makes this acid even easier for the homebrewer.
harold
Established Member
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Orin good to hear your second experiment was successful. Do you think you might be able to grab that webcam again in a couple of weeks time and show us what you see?
The jury is absolutely not out. Upregulating wnt is good for hair formation. Follica/Cotsarelis/the studies/patents have always been 100% clear on this. Somebody just misinterpreted a statistically insignificant result as eaning something it didnt.
I'm fairly certain upregulating wnt while downregulating EGFR signalling will always do better than the latter alone. Especially with the materials we are working with. In any case its a good thing. Though I know this will come up again and again.
hh
Orin said:
The jury is absolutely not out. Upregulating wnt is good for hair formation. Follica/Cotsarelis/the studies/patents have always been 100% clear on this. Somebody just misinterpreted a statistically insignificant result as eaning something it didnt.
I'm fairly certain upregulating wnt while downregulating EGFR signalling will always do better than the latter alone. Especially with the materials we are working with. In any case its a good thing. Though I know this will come up again and again.
hh
harold
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That doesnt really apply here. Lithium chloride and lithium carbonate both dissassociate in solution to lithium ions. It is lithium ions that have the physiological effect in both bipolar depression and new hair formation. So lithium = lithium (solubility is a different issue).michael barry said:
hh
harold
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Moomin said:
Correct. If you go down to the dermal layer you do run the risk of damaging/destroying existing follicles and you can cause scarring.
I dont think its necessary to understand all this stuff....anyway one of the things you hear a lot isplacode formation and this is where you get this small "valley" forming that in different parts of the body might goon to become the site of a hair, tooth or feather. I'm fuzzy on the details. Basically all you need to know is that with the right stimulus the skin works it all out itself and reorganises itself into skin with new hair follciles that produce hair.
Sounds right to me. I'm a little fuzzy again on your dermis recycling bit but you may well be talking about something I dont know about.Again i dont think its too important to understand that but it never hurts to know a bit more about whats oing on.
minoxidil probably works through potassium channel -> adenosine -> fibroblast growth factor. Almost certainly by releasing the same growth factors that are responsible for its effects on old hair follciles.
hh
harold said:Orin good to hear your second experiment was successful. Do you think you might be able to grab that webcam again in a couple of weeks time and show us what you see?
- Absolutely. Though, as you know, my camera is crappy and my hair-color makes it very tough to make out minute details. I did take a few "before" shots, so if nothing else I can, if future faux-follica treatments should yield fruit, you will be able to see a progressive move from barren to covered. That's the hope atleast
I concentrated on temple areas. I think this is the most important area to get regrowth in, as 99% of all men regardless of severity of MBP - as you well know - do experience loss in this area. So I guess this is the harshest environment for the hair. If I can catch the hair on camera, I will put it up. But I have to stress that this area was done on a whim and was very small, right in the angle of my temples. The good news is that - while spare - I effectively got some coverage in pretty much the whole dermabraded area, as opposed to the first time around, where I only got coverage at about 30-40% of the entire area.
This could be due to positioning to existing hairline, the time since original hair was lost (as we know that dermabrading, in addition to creating new hair, also awaken dormant hair), or some other factor. But all in all, I think plucking is definately something to be looked into for all who are trying this. I should also note that I did not pluck the area clean or anything. I merely plucked all the whispy go-nowhere hair that stopped growing after about an inch or so. So it seems that a plucking of the *general* area, as opposed to plucking of the *exact* area, is enough to kick up some regrowth.
Orin said:
The jury is absolutely not out. Upregulating wnt is good for hair formation. Follica/Cotsarelis/the studies/patents have always been 100% clear on this. Somebody just misinterpreted a statistically insignificant result as eaning something it didnt.
- Ok good to know. I'm just trying to get some over-sight of what we're talking about, and pair it down to the practical nature of things (as I can't contribute much on the theory of things). It also helps to keep this giant thread cohesive.
Though we still have the problem of just using lithium, but given the situation, this should probably not be disregarded at this point in time. Baby and bath-water and all that. As I said before, it could be cumulative, and worst case scenario, it probably doesn't hurt the procedure.
I'm fairly certain upregulating wnt while downregulating EGFR signalling will always do better than the latter alone. Especially with the materials we are working with. In any case its a good thing. Though I know this will come up again and again.
hh
- I agree, and I don't think anyone really opposes this position, which is a good thing (that we are in agreement of the general concept). But we still lack a EGFR-inhibitor, though there are still some left to explore - both natural and synthetic. As far as I know, nobody on any forum have so far actually used gefitinib in a topical (or otherwise) vehicle for this purpose; though its sudden availability (economically speaking - it can be had for 12 dollar a pill, as opposed to the original 2500-3000 dollars for 30 pills) will surely make that happen.
On the other hand, the only EGFR-inhibitors I know that people have played around with wold be green tea and quercetin, and I don't think I ever read anything from those people - assuming they actually tried it out. I didn't check out MB's reports, so I'll take his word for it (that some of these natural products also unfortunately inhibit WnT). I think this is something to be regarded also.
As I said before, it would make sense if for example green tea also inhibited WnT, as green tea has a historical "cure-all" status, that would make it historically significant as a treatment against hairloss. Concentrated milk-thisle on the other hand, is not so obvious in its' possible benefits. But that's just a logic-based theory, and has obvious faults in rationality.
Though I, as everyone else, are of course hoping that a natural product can compete. Based on my very limited trials of all this, I wouldn't be the least surprised if someone got really good regrowth from topical gefitinib, if they combined it with wounding and plucking prior to that.
I guess it's easy to be very pessimistic with the meager results, but one should not forget just how much we have learnt about possible treatments. Once we - or some other forum - have worked out the kinks, I think the very least we can look forward to, is something that grows more hair than minoxidil - which is great.
Just trying to keep things in perspective. Prior to march/april, most of these kinds of forums were dust-ville, and now everything seem to be moving at light-speed, which is very encouraging. In fact, that we can get anything done on a loosely organized internet forum is a pretty amazing feat all in itself.
There is also the possibility that someone *has* tried gefitinib or similar and had great results, but are unwilling to share this. I had pretty mediocre results, but because I posted some photos, my images got bounced around the internet on a couple of forums and I had my share of PMs demanding both explanation, further details (that I could not provide) or just rude remarks as if I had slapped them in the face.
I'm not one for hysterical ideas, but this is a factor because of the way the internet works. If these kinds of discussions are out in the open, you can be sure there are atleast a handful of tight circles that probably are 2-3 steps ahead of us.
It's just an idea, and something that might counter-balance the amusing worries some of you have displayed about how Follica is going to "come after" the forum that discovered the home-made silver bullet. If I were Follica, the last thing I would do is have my PR-department be caught trying to shut down an internet forum. It's the kind of faux pas that could undo a company.
The last thing a promising up-and-coming company want, is to have the public (and even worse, investors) thinking Donald Duck is running the company. So I think any such worry is unfounded. let's focus on getting something that actually works
PS: Damn. I really don't know how to use quote tags do I?
Any-hoo... I think a good, practical idea, is to pluck all whispy hair in the area a day or two before you dermabrade (atleast a day). If my experiments are anything to go by, it should provide a good boost to your regrowth. Actually, if you're going to do this several times, a good idea might be to pluck the hair that you've previously regrown. Unfortunately I don't think this (atleast the "home-version") will be a one-shot deal. It's more of the 3-4 passes-till-good-coverage-deal. Though I know there is some socially prohibitive aspects to plucking healthy and not-so-healthy hair before dermabrading, I guess you just have to take my word for it that it will be worth it in the end. This should ring especially true for those that jump straight to dermabrading your entire scalp.
At that point you might as well pluck most, if not all your existing hair. And if you're completly smooth up there, it might still be worth to invest in a few waxing stripes (they're cheap and can be bought everywhere), and wav your head. Though you might not see it, plucking near-invisible hair from the root will hopefully have the same effect as plucking more robust hairs.
Just something to think about. Once I'm done with my summer-holiday I will probably pluck most of my front and up all along and into my sides. I'm sure it will be psychologically difficult to do (as I still have pretty good coverage), but I take comfort in both my own experiments, and the very respectable work legitimate scientists have done.
So... if you're going to dermabrade, try to pluck at the very least 20 hairs spread out in the area you're about to dermabrade. It will (according to all provided data) be worth it. I guess you can always invest in a fedora, or a similarily snazzy hat
michael barry
Senior Member
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Harold, Orin, Cal, Bugbug, et al.....
Im going to try a little experiment. You guys have me thinking positive, especially Orin's success and determination.
Here is what Im going to do:
1) Tonight, I'll depilate by plucking three little areas : above my left eyebrow, behind my ear, at the nape of one side of my neck (have a little more hair on the other side anyway).
2) I'll wait three days...........I think the patent says three days anyway to get the plucked hairs all in anagen.
3) I'll abrade with sandpaper, and wait four days.
4) After four days, Im going to us milk thistle extract until day ten. I'll also apply minoxidil around, but not directly on, the wounded area until day ten. I'll probably also take a pinch of lithium chloride (tastes like salt) until day ten
5) Im not going to wash the areas abraded until day ten.
In a month or so, I guess we will see if this series of actions results in anything.
There are a few guys at hairsite willing to give it a go in small areas. Cal is a sharp guy, and TAGOHL knows a great great deal about hair, and he has researched it for several years. Here is to hoping out of the six or eight (or nine or ten) of us who seem just interested enough to try it, that one of us has some eye-opening success.
BTW----On follica watiching the net'................they may be pissed, but since this discovery is really fifty damned years old, and there has been ancedotal reports on discussion forums for many years about guys injecting minoxidil and getting haris, guys in car wrecks getting lots of strange growth, a guy or two hit by lightening getting some growth, some guys getting severe sunburns and getting some growth (Docjo77 had mentioned this in one of his last posts), a picture of a guy now taking getfitinib getting growth on long bald scalp, and another dude taking getfitinib and getting hair all over his nose growing like whiskers.....................its natural people would be talking about this anyway. I dont think follica, however pissed they may be, has much to worry about though................so many people, the vast majority, will never find these rather hidden forums (its plain hard to find the "New Research, and Discoveries Forum" now), and would find it unthinkable to test-patch run anything themselves anyway. There probably wouldn't be 100 people at the most do this at home and get big hair growth who wouldn't go back and get follica's procedure done once it was available......I think they would be worried about nada.
Im going to try a little experiment. You guys have me thinking positive, especially Orin's success and determination.
Here is what Im going to do:
1) Tonight, I'll depilate by plucking three little areas : above my left eyebrow, behind my ear, at the nape of one side of my neck (have a little more hair on the other side anyway).
2) I'll wait three days...........I think the patent says three days anyway to get the plucked hairs all in anagen.
3) I'll abrade with sandpaper, and wait four days.
4) After four days, Im going to us milk thistle extract until day ten. I'll also apply minoxidil around, but not directly on, the wounded area until day ten. I'll probably also take a pinch of lithium chloride (tastes like salt) until day ten
5) Im not going to wash the areas abraded until day ten.
In a month or so, I guess we will see if this series of actions results in anything.
There are a few guys at hairsite willing to give it a go in small areas. Cal is a sharp guy, and TAGOHL knows a great great deal about hair, and he has researched it for several years. Here is to hoping out of the six or eight (or nine or ten) of us who seem just interested enough to try it, that one of us has some eye-opening success.
BTW----On follica watiching the net'................they may be pissed, but since this discovery is really fifty damned years old, and there has been ancedotal reports on discussion forums for many years about guys injecting minoxidil and getting haris, guys in car wrecks getting lots of strange growth, a guy or two hit by lightening getting some growth, some guys getting severe sunburns and getting some growth (Docjo77 had mentioned this in one of his last posts), a picture of a guy now taking getfitinib getting growth on long bald scalp, and another dude taking getfitinib and getting hair all over his nose growing like whiskers.....................its natural people would be talking about this anyway. I dont think follica, however pissed they may be, has much to worry about though................so many people, the vast majority, will never find these rather hidden forums (its plain hard to find the "New Research, and Discoveries Forum" now), and would find it unthinkable to test-patch run anything themselves anyway. There probably wouldn't be 100 people at the most do this at home and get big hair growth who wouldn't go back and get follica's procedure done once it was available......I think they would be worried about nada.
LinuxCavalier
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I definitely think this process is the real long term hope. Just thought I would mention that I broke my shoulder very badly 6 months ago and have noticed definite hair growth on the inside of my right upper arm (near where my humerus was broken.) Now its not enough to cover someones head, but I would say they are fairly thick in that they look the same as the hairs on my underarm. I took nothing (not even finasteride) that would encourage hair growth. The one thing I would note is the hair growth is something that occurred gradually over a period of five months or so.
Right. Even against the great odds that 1 man won't stumble on the exact process, people on this forum aren't interested in and couldn't legally SELL the solution (probably for many reasons). What's more, Follica's final product would more than likely have swifter, more reliable and more intense success.
That said, it'd be nice to be able to at least thicken things up on our own to tide us over until we can gladly pass up on a nice new car and march into a derm clinic for a Follica pass over the scalp.
That said, it'd be nice to be able to at least thicken things up on our own to tide us over until we can gladly pass up on a nice new car and march into a derm clinic for a Follica pass over the scalp.
Jkkezh
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michael barry said:
Sorry, but why would you pluck and abrade those area's? They will probably regrow anyway even if you don't do anything... So I'm not sure what you are trying to get out of this experiment.
Why not just try it on a balding area on your scalp???