bornthisway
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first said:
I've read of people benefitting from needling, including via a plum blossom hammer.. so it's definitely possible.
Follica - Good News!
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I've read of people benefitting from needling, including via a plum blossom hammer.. so it's definitely possible.
bornthisway said:
I am one of those people.
I started needling with 4 taped together lancets approximately a month ago, maybe 5-6 weeks.. not really sure. In my opinion it's something most people should add to their regimen, especially seeing how cost-effective it is. Since I've started loads of hair have come on, at various speeds and in various places. Judging from their lenght they seem to have either sprung about 2 weeks or so after my first needling, and in some cases maybe as early as ten days. The longest hairs are a little over a cm in lenght, and almost all of them are thick and terminal.
I yanked out a fully grown hair and compared, and allthough the new hair is not quite as thick it is by far not whispy. My whispy hair start to slope almost immediately after becoming visible - they just don't have the strenght to behave like normal hair. These new hairs behave as if I shaved down existing hair; in fact one patch in particular, which consists of about 12 hairs in a 2 square milimeter area look exacly like that.
It's quite exciting to see, and seems to support the direction Follica is going at. It's probably not a wild stab in the dark, in other words. The only problem with this low-tech, bare essential imitation of Follica, is that the growth is sporradic. All my visible new hairs (that fill in the hairline I had when I was 18 or 19, I'm 25 now) are situated on the left side. Though they even grow directly in the middle of the temple, a place that's been bare for years (not even whispy hairs), my right side, and the side which seems to have been hit the worst so far by hairloss, shows no signs yet.
It may still be too early, but I'm been very consistent with my needling, as in, I've made sure to needle throughout the entire area all over the scalp, paying close attention to the front. I also have 5-6 new hairs in the widow's peak at the same lenght as the left, and I can see about 10 or so glimmers of hair that seems to have recently awoken.
All in all there's no reason to complain when what I do is so removed from what Follica does. I'm guessing the needling draws attention to the scalp and, like plucking of the hairs seem to serve in the patent, signals the scalp-environment to go into repair-mode.
I've just recently, as in last week, started to try to mimick the Follica method more closely. I've dermabraded the left temple mechanically with needles configured like a comb. This way I can abrade without ripping off existing hair, and no need to shave the head. I bought some lithium orotate, though it mixes very poorly with just about anything.... the only thing that half-works, is mixing it with alcohol. Still, after application it leaves a residue behind on the skin. I've read on another forum that lithium absorbs poorly in the skin, so I try to very, very gently needle the delicate dermabraded area before application. I think it's as good as I can do without toying with DMSO and other chemicals that I am profoundly unequiped to handle.
I don't expect any miracles or anything, but it would be cool if any of you would give this low-tech replication a try, if nothing else then to see if there's something to it. Considering that *just* needling, not even dermabrading (which arguably should trigger regeneration to a greater degree than super-tiny puncture-wounds), seems to give results, then I think working out a slightly better and more consistent (result-wise) method shouldn't be too difficult.
Though I have my doubts on the lithium.. can't substantiate it with anything, just a feeling. If you're going to try it, I'd probably suggest using Lithium Chloride, as it apparently is much more solluble. I live in Europe,and the only place that sells Lithium Chloride doesn't ship outside the US.
I have a question though, if any of you can answer it: when the patent says the WnT-signaling drug is already available on the market, does that imply that it's in a product that is applicated on the skin? Or could it be a substanc in a drug that has never been thought to be applicated externally? Or does any internal drug also get the ok to be applied topically? Again, I'm just a little suspicious of the problem lithium has with being absorbed...
On the other hand, I'm just mixing the least solluble kind in 40% alcohol. For all we know Follica puts lithium together in a special creme that's much more efficient absorption-wise than anything you can do at home.. I'm guessing this is also how the actual method will be carried out commercially. You get an appointment, get dermabraded either mechanically or with a laser (and pressumably without having to shave your head; they'd pick the least off-putting choice for the consumer), you get sent home with one or two different solutions packaged in daily-doses that lasts for 9 days and that'll be it.
It still sounds a little clunky, especially if they keep the step where your hair gets plucked three days prior to the dermabrasion, but I'm not complaining. Just will be interesting to see how they sell the whole procedure.. I've noticed most people have a very low threshold for anything that can't be streamlined down to a simple, one button solution.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings.. seeing how I'm on day 2 now with applying lithium, I have 7 days to go, and.. what was it, 6 additional weeks to start seeing results from that specific treatment? I realize that mixing two different, albeit similar methods (standard needling and lithium+derma/follica-aping) doesn't make for the cleanest of experimentations, but I guess I'm a little too selfish at the prospect of potentially having substantial results by summer rather than clearly being able to point out which method is "the best". I'll probably always continue needling, even if the other route is substantially better for growing new hair. Needling alone makes my hair about twice the thickness it usually is - an effect akin to laser-treatment, which ultimately grew too tedious and provided at best 5 terminal hairs and 20 whispy ones over a period of a year.
Needling seems to accomplish exacly the same result that laser does, though needling takes me 10 minutes to do and not over an hour, and also actually grows (or at the very least, very effectively rejuvenates) hair worth talking about. It's kind of interesting how the methods synergize together, accomplishing the same thing through different means.
I think most lancets are the same lenght, there is no indication on the box. I actually don't think it's any worry should you hit a hair-follicle, however deep they are. Consider all the experiments on cutting follicles up and the pretty remarkable ability for the halves to renegerate. I wouldn't be surprised if accidently hurting them would turn out to be a good thing in the end, reparing ones that have gone dormant or have been damaged.
My lancets are the thinnest available, "OneTouch UltraSoft". They are most likely available everywhere, and the fact that they are so thin is why I don't fret wheter or not I might hit a follicle. I press them down to about half lenght, which is just over 1 mm I guess, perhaps 1,2 mm. Not really sure though.
There is almost always blood-letting, but the actual wounds that are created this way are almost completly healed the next morning, and all gone by the following night. When I'm tired and want to get it over with I do it in front of the mirror, which takes about 5-10 minutes to do my entire scalp, at about 2-3 presses a second. It's a rythm thing you'll work into muscle-memory after a few sessions.
Be prepared, should you start, to have some spots be very sensitive, to the point of tears welling up in your eyes as a pure nerve-response. I used to do a little dance on my tippy-toes too, out of a mix of frustration, pain and steadfast determination. Most of that goes away after about 10 sessions or so, as well as the crusty, crackling sound you first experience when needling. Collagen is created like crazy when you needle, which is one reason the skin will feel softer, looser, less thin and more.. hmm bouncy I suppose. Some seem to think the popping/cracking sound is dead tissue and "debris", though I'm not as sure. In any case, it doesn't seem to hurt the hair.
Needling, allthough perhaps not as deep, is for this reason a great way to fill in wrinkles with the increased creation of collagen. Knowing that this is a well-known (and pretty old) fact makes you wonder why people pay crazy amounts to get bovine collagen inserted into their skin that will naturally fade after 6-12 months. There are rollers available on the net for this, and rolling them on your face takes a precious minute or two a day for a remarkably substantial effects in photos, the likes of which no fancy, smancy skin-creme seems to be able to replicate. I think one of the reports on the effects of the rollers/needling, also mentioned that well under 1% of skin creme, minoxidil and the like actually goes into the skin.. needling increased absorptions by some out-of-this-world number, like 4000% or so.. though percents are relative
After long discussion on some other forums it was pretty much concluded that the commercial rollers don't penetrate deep enough, and that those that did were at an odd, cost-prohibitive price, like 200-300 dollars for an extra milimeter or so. Odd indeed. In any case, lancets are sterile and if you work out the math you're spending maybe 20 dollars a year for the supplies. It's nice not to have to worry about cleaning equipments and such hassle, and just be able to pick out a new pair when you need them.
Anyway I do this twice a week, taping together 2 pairs of lancets and then taping those pairs into a quadruple formation. Every now and then I turn the contraption in my hand to get a more varied and covered needling.
Twice a week seems to be sufficient for my hair to permanently be in a "lasered-like-state" where it is thick, shiny and healthy looking like normal people's hair; I've always envied that kind of hair, and now I have it - even though I severly lack in actual numbers. Sometimes a loose strand will curl up at an odd angle, and when a single hair portrudes like that, I think it looks almost artificially thick, like doll hair.
On the other hand, I've always had very fine, almost silky hair, even as a kid, so that's my base of comparison. My hair is of a very pale platinum blonde (which unfortunately, because I am also so pale, makes any kind of photo-journal over hairprogress an exercise in futility - a friend of mine, when she first met me when I was 17, said she had never seen anyone with actual transparent, ghost-like hair, though this was clearly not a jab at any hairloss-situation as there was none at the time), so just about any brunette or dark hair, even thinning ones, would probably be thicker than mine from the get-go. Even when I was 15 and had good amounts of hair, it was hard to get any kind of volume to make a spiky or styled hairdo, and usually ended up with a wavy-curved-to-the-side-style. So it's a structure thing; soft, fine and much too flexible.
I wish I had asian hair sometimes, or african. European hair unfortunately seems to be the hardest to get back to a cosmetically acceptable state as the individual hair is so fine. Hopefully, in a few years that won't be an issue.
Edit: Sorry for the endlessly long, tangential-prone messages to, what was in essence, a simple and direct question. I'm a free-lance writer and expression through text is such a natural fit for me, that when I don't write professionally I tend to slip into the same modus operandi that I use in speech, which tends towards the inexplicable mix of thoroughness of detail, and stream of consciousness.
My lancets are the thinnest available, "OneTouch UltraSoft". They are most likely available everywhere, and the fact that they are so thin is why I don't fret wheter or not I might hit a follicle. I press them down to about half lenght, which is just over 1 mm I guess, perhaps 1,2 mm. Not really sure though.
There is almost always blood-letting, but the actual wounds that are created this way are almost completly healed the next morning, and all gone by the following night. When I'm tired and want to get it over with I do it in front of the mirror, which takes about 5-10 minutes to do my entire scalp, at about 2-3 presses a second. It's a rythm thing you'll work into muscle-memory after a few sessions.
Be prepared, should you start, to have some spots be very sensitive, to the point of tears welling up in your eyes as a pure nerve-response. I used to do a little dance on my tippy-toes too, out of a mix of frustration, pain and steadfast determination. Most of that goes away after about 10 sessions or so, as well as the crusty, crackling sound you first experience when needling. Collagen is created like crazy when you needle, which is one reason the skin will feel softer, looser, less thin and more.. hmm bouncy I suppose. Some seem to think the popping/cracking sound is dead tissue and "debris", though I'm not as sure. In any case, it doesn't seem to hurt the hair.
Needling, allthough perhaps not as deep, is for this reason a great way to fill in wrinkles with the increased creation of collagen. Knowing that this is a well-known (and pretty old) fact makes you wonder why people pay crazy amounts to get bovine collagen inserted into their skin that will naturally fade after 6-12 months. There are rollers available on the net for this, and rolling them on your face takes a precious minute or two a day for a remarkably substantial effects in photos, the likes of which no fancy, smancy skin-creme seems to be able to replicate. I think one of the reports on the effects of the rollers/needling, also mentioned that well under 1% of skin creme, minoxidil and the like actually goes into the skin.. needling increased absorptions by some out-of-this-world number, like 4000% or so.. though percents are relative
After long discussion on some other forums it was pretty much concluded that the commercial rollers don't penetrate deep enough, and that those that did were at an odd, cost-prohibitive price, like 200-300 dollars for an extra milimeter or so. Odd indeed. In any case, lancets are sterile and if you work out the math you're spending maybe 20 dollars a year for the supplies. It's nice not to have to worry about cleaning equipments and such hassle, and just be able to pick out a new pair when you need them.
Anyway I do this twice a week, taping together 2 pairs of lancets and then taping those pairs into a quadruple formation. Every now and then I turn the contraption in my hand to get a more varied and covered needling.
Twice a week seems to be sufficient for my hair to permanently be in a "lasered-like-state" where it is thick, shiny and healthy looking like normal people's hair; I've always envied that kind of hair, and now I have it - even though I severly lack in actual numbers. Sometimes a loose strand will curl up at an odd angle, and when a single hair portrudes like that, I think it looks almost artificially thick, like doll hair.
On the other hand, I've always had very fine, almost silky hair, even as a kid, so that's my base of comparison. My hair is of a very pale platinum blonde (which unfortunately, because I am also so pale, makes any kind of photo-journal over hairprogress an exercise in futility - a friend of mine, when she first met me when I was 17, said she had never seen anyone with actual transparent, ghost-like hair, though this was clearly not a jab at any hairloss-situation as there was none at the time), so just about any brunette or dark hair, even thinning ones, would probably be thicker than mine from the get-go. Even when I was 15 and had good amounts of hair, it was hard to get any kind of volume to make a spiky or styled hairdo, and usually ended up with a wavy-curved-to-the-side-style. So it's a structure thing; soft, fine and much too flexible.
I wish I had asian hair sometimes, or african. European hair unfortunately seems to be the hardest to get back to a cosmetically acceptable state as the individual hair is so fine. Hopefully, in a few years that won't be an issue.
Edit: Sorry for the endlessly long, tangential-prone messages to, what was in essence, a simple and direct question. I'm a free-lance writer and expression through text is such a natural fit for me, that when I don't write professionally I tend to slip into the same modus operandi that I use in speech, which tends towards the inexplicable mix of thoroughness of detail, and stream of consciousness.
bornthisway
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Orin said:
Long for sure.
I'll have to fully read this later. But, there is no reason to be skeptical of needling given the number of people that have tried it and claimed benefit among many hair loss forums (and Follica). I do wonder how more penetrable formulations are especially if the base is emu.. will it really be much more significant?About the plum blossom hammer.. it's used for treating hair loss in Chinese medicine.. though someone at Regrowth used it for 3 months and had no improvement.
http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums ... =5&t=16792
So, the length of the needle, arrangement, frequency, spacing, depth, possible topicals applied, etc, are likely relevant for hair growth.
Since it seems hard to find people using the same method and replicating results I haven't looked into it much, but hearing of results is always promising.
Exacly; it's the unknown, successful combination of variables that is frustrating, not wheter or not the actual method works or not. I'd say by now, through countless anecdotal and scientific evidence, we can conclude that the body can regenerate itself given the right circumstances.
I'd think it would be beneficial if we could move away from the endless churn of wheter or not needling is viable or symptomatic of a no-end-in-sight situation. Sometimes the skepticism on boards such as these border on narrow-mindedness.. but on the other hand, threads about the correlation between masturbation and hairloss keep popping up now and then, only to be countered by the amazingly harebrained counter-argument that sex, in whichever (assumingly) form bypasses the supposed negative effects of masturbation.
Still, to expect any kind of controlled and systematic research being done on an open, free-to-join forum is probably naive, though sound logical discussion is always nice to read; if nothing else than to infuse some hope
Oh and about the uncontrolled variables - the patch I was talking about before in my hairline, the 2 square milimeter one loaded with hair.. given its lenght, it seems to have sprung from one of the first tries with needling, when I used a sewing needle that, because it wasn't sterile, gave me a pronounced inflammation that later turned into acne and then resided after a week.
I'm not suggesting that actively trying to inflame your scalp could be a solution, an assumption that would be the logical conclusion for forum trolls to go with, but that it might be my own anecdotal support to the assumption that an actual wound (in some substantial capacity), like dermabrasion, is probably more effective than the actual act of puncturing very tiny holes. Dermabrasion is probably a much better way to ensure the pressence of regenerative cells, and avoid the side-effects that having a deep wound would come with.
In this case substantial regrowth just seemed to have been done in a round-about-way, with needless inflammation and some acne, which is in essence a certain type of wound that is probably potent with regenerative-cells.. or maybe I'm just extrapolating too much. Still, given the assumption that dermabrasion/needling with regenerative effect can be done over and over and over again, as opposed to a one-shot try makes fuzzing about small details such as absolutely optimal treatment method kind of moot.
Food for thought though.
I'd think it would be beneficial if we could move away from the endless churn of wheter or not needling is viable or symptomatic of a no-end-in-sight situation. Sometimes the skepticism on boards such as these border on narrow-mindedness.. but on the other hand, threads about the correlation between masturbation and hairloss keep popping up now and then, only to be countered by the amazingly harebrained counter-argument that sex, in whichever (assumingly) form bypasses the supposed negative effects of masturbation.
Still, to expect any kind of controlled and systematic research being done on an open, free-to-join forum is probably naive, though sound logical discussion is always nice to read; if nothing else than to infuse some hope
Oh and about the uncontrolled variables - the patch I was talking about before in my hairline, the 2 square milimeter one loaded with hair.. given its lenght, it seems to have sprung from one of the first tries with needling, when I used a sewing needle that, because it wasn't sterile, gave me a pronounced inflammation that later turned into acne and then resided after a week.
I'm not suggesting that actively trying to inflame your scalp could be a solution, an assumption that would be the logical conclusion for forum trolls to go with, but that it might be my own anecdotal support to the assumption that an actual wound (in some substantial capacity), like dermabrasion, is probably more effective than the actual act of puncturing very tiny holes. Dermabrasion is probably a much better way to ensure the pressence of regenerative cells, and avoid the side-effects that having a deep wound would come with.
In this case substantial regrowth just seemed to have been done in a round-about-way, with needless inflammation and some acne, which is in essence a certain type of wound that is probably potent with regenerative-cells.. or maybe I'm just extrapolating too much. Still, given the assumption that dermabrasion/needling with regenerative effect can be done over and over and over again, as opposed to a one-shot try makes fuzzing about small details such as absolutely optimal treatment method kind of moot.
Food for thought though.
bornthisway
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michael barry said:
michael barry said:
In the following study it seems at least one of the essential oils was a hair growth agent in alopecia areata. Essential oils were thyme, rosemary, lavender, and cedarwood. (Carrier oils of grape seed/jojoba were used in both groups.)
"The main problem with this study is that the researchers did not describe the duration of the patients' alopecia. However, in a reply to a letter, they described the patients as having had alopecia areata from less than 1 year to more than 9 years. This explains the low improvement rates in both groups but does not invalidate the statistically significant difference for those that received the essential oils."
http://archderm.ama-assn.org/cgi/conten ... GDST8013F5
Randomized Trial of Aromatherapy
Successful Treatment for Alopecia Areata
Arch Dermatol. 1998;134:1349-1352.
Objective To investigate the efficacy of aromatherapy in the treatment of patients with alopecia areata.
Design A randomized, double-blind, controlled trial of 7 months' duration, with follow-up at 3 and 7 months.
Setting Dermatology outpatient department.
Participants Eighty-six patients diagnosed as having alopecia areata.
Intervention Eighty-six patients were randomized into 2 groups. The active group massaged essential oils (thyme, rosemary, lavender, and cedarwood) in a mixture of carrier oils (jojoba and grapeseed) into their scalp daily. The control group used only carrier oils for their massage, also daily.
Main Outcome Measures Treatment success was evaluated on sequential photographs by 2 dermatologists (I.C.H. and A.D.O.) independently. Similarly, the degree of improvement was measured by 2 methods: a 6-point scale and computerized analysis of traced areas of alopecia.
Results Nineteen (44%) of 43 patients in the active group showed improvement compared with 6 (15%) of 41 patients in the control group (P=.008). An alopecia scale was applied by blinded observers on sequential photographs and was shown to be reproducible with good interobserver agreement ({kappa}=0.84). The degree of improvement on photographic assessment was significant (P=.05). Demographic analysis showed that the 2 groups were well matched for prognostic factors.
Conclusions The results show aromatherapy to be a safe and effective treatment for alopecia areata. Treatment with these essential oils was significantly more effective than treatment with the carrier oil alone (P=.008 for the primary outcome measure). We also successfully applied an evidence-based method to an alternative therapy.
Introduction
Cedarwood, lavender, thyme, and rosemary oils have hair growth–promoting properties. These oils have been anecdotally used to treat alopecia for more than 100 years. To date, there have been no controlled trials to evaluate this treatment. Our experience using aromatherapy provides anecdotal evidence that several patients have had marked improvement with this form of therapy. Our aim in this study was to test the hypothesis that pharmacologically active stimulants for hair growth are present in these oils and that use of these oils can be therapeutic in patients with alopecia.
Alopecia areata is a common condition affecting 1% of the Western world. It can cause substantial social and psychological distress and is often highly detrimental to the patient's well-being and self-esteem. In 1 study,12 patients with alopecia areata had an increased risk of developing a psychiatric illness. An autoimmune cause is widely accepted. However, it is thought that stress can affect its course. Current conventional treatments have limited success or unacceptable toxic effects. The course of alopecia areata is unpredictable, but factors affecting prognosis are well established. A poor prognosis is indicated by the long duration of the condition (>1 year), associated autoimmune conditions (eg, thyroid disease), atopy, and family history.
PATIENTS, MATERIALS, AND METHODS
PATIENTS
Eighty-six patients diagnosed as having alopecia areata were invited to take part in this randomized, controlled trial. These patients were interviewed, and they completed a questionnaire. Patients with a medical history of hypertension, epilepsy, or pregnancy were excluded. Two of 86 patients were excluded because they had androgenic alopecia. Topical medication and intralesional corticosteroid therapy for the alopecia were discontinued before the trial.
Eighty-four patients were randomized into 2 groups by the aromatherapist (M.J.). All patients signed a written consent form before the trial.
The trained aromatherapist explained how to use the oils and demonstrated the technique of scalp massage. The oils were massaged into the scalp for a minimum of 2 minutes. A warm towel was then wrapped around the head to aid absorption of the oils. Patients were advised to use this technique every night.
There were 2 arms to the trial. The active group received the essential oils: Thyme vulgaris (2 drops, 88 mg), Lavandula agustifolia (3 drops, 108 mg), Rosmarinus officinalis (3 drops, 114 mg), and Cedrus atlantica (2 drops, 94 mg). These oils were mixed in a carrier oil, which was a combination of jojoba, 3 mL, and grapeseed, 20 mL, oils.
The control group received the same carrier oils without added essential oils, and the oils were identical except in smell, which could not be mimicked in the control.
MEASUREMENT AND EVALUATION
Initial and 3- and 7-month assessments were made by 3 methods:
1. A 4-point scale, such as that described by MacDonald Hull and Norris,17 was used to check that the severity was similar in active and control groups, as follows: 1 indicates vellus hair or no hair; 2, sparse pigmented or nonpigmented terminal hair; 3, terminal regrowth with patches of alopecia areata; and 4, terminal regrowth in all areas.
2. A standardized professional photographic assessment of each volunteer was taken at the initial interview and after 3 and 7 months. Changes in these photographic assessments formed the primary outcome measure, with improvement as the most important factor. These changes were scored independently by 2 dermatologists (I.C.H. and A.D.O.) who were unaware of the therapy administered. Improvement in photographic assessment was graded using a numerical scale
3. A further secondary outcome measure was performed. A map was traced onto transparent film wherever the alopecia occurred in patches. These tracings were then transferred onto flat acetate sheets. A computerized image analyzer was used to calculate the areas of alopecia at the initial assessment and after 3 and 7 months.
STATISTICAL METHODS
We calculated that if improvement occurred in 20% more patients with active treatment than in the control group it would require 47 active and 47 control patients to detect improvement at a 5% significance level with a power of 80%.18 Statistical analysis was performed on an intention-to-treat basis. A pooled variance estimate Student t test for independent samples was used to test improvement in the patients' alopecia with the map-tracing method. The {chi}2 test was used to detect improvement in the active and control groups. A Mann-Whitney U test, corrected for ties, was used to assess the significance of the degree of improvement in scored photographic assessment. The level of agreement of the alopecia scoring scale between 2 assessors was examined using the Cohen weighted {kappa} statistic.
The trial was approved by the Joint Ethical Committee for the Grampian Health Board and by the University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Scotland.
RESULTS
Eighty-four patients entered the trial; 28 (68%) of the patients in the control group and 35 (81%) of the patients in the active group completed the trial (Figure 2). The patients were well matched for the important demographic indicators that might affect response to therapy (Table 1). The distribution of patients by the 4-point scale was similar in both groups.
The improvement was statistically significant in all assessments undertaken. The primary outcome measure of improvement vs no improvement showed improvement with essential oils (P=.008, {chi}2) (Table 2). The degree of improvement shown in the photographs was assessed by the Mann-Whitney U test and was significant (P=.05). The results of the alopecia scale, which scored the degree of improvement (from 1-6), are illustrated in Figure 3. The measurement of traced areas, which could be performed in only 32 patients, showed a mean±SD reduction in area affected of 103.9 ± 140.0 cm2 compared with -1.8 ± 155.0 cm2 in the control group (Figure 4). This was significant, with P =.05 (Student t test). A relative risk of 2.6 (95% confidence limits, 1.2, 5.6) was calculated for the likelihood of improving on the active therapy. Weighted {kappa} statistic was 0.84 for agreement between scorers on the assessment of the photographic scale, showing good interrater correlation.
This indicates that this is a reproducible method of assessment. One patient who received active treatment and had an excellent response (ie, a score of 6 on our scale) is pictured
COMMENT
The responses were variable but showed a clear and statistically significant advantage to treatment with this standardized regimen of aromatherapy. Although the tradition of aromatherapy is to combine several oils, it seems likely that 1 of these agents has a stimulatory effect on hair growth. One male patient also had severe androgenic alopecia, which was not included in the assessment of efficacy, and within this area there was some moderate regrowth of hair and improvement in alopecia areata.
There was a higher dropout rate in the control group, which could be explained by the fact that the volunteers became discouraged with the 7-month protocol. The control oil was not odorless because the carrier oils have some smell, and patients did not know what aroma to expect. However, they may have surmised that their treatment was inactive and withdrew from the trial. The control group's relative lack of response again suggests a pharmacoactive property of the topically applied therapy as opposed to an effect arising from the comforting, relaxing effect of massage and of the application procedure, which was the same for both groups.
Previous studies of alopecia therapies have used only subjective scales of improvement, such as those described by MacDonald Hull and Norris.17 We found these scales less helpful because there are large intervals between the points in the alopecia scale. We validated the method of sequential photography with a standardized approach using a professional photographer's studio. Images were judged by blinded observers and showed good agreement. This proved to be the most blinded and unbiased approach because there was no possibility of smelling which treatment had been applied.
We encountered no significant adverse events from this treatment, which makes the therapeutic ratio high compared with other therapies, such as diphencyprone,14, 16 squaric acid dibutylester,19 and systemic or intralesional corticosteroid injections.
Populations in other trials may differ in prognostic factors. Shapiro et al20 and Gordon et al14 found a 38% success rate in producing cosmetically acceptable regrowth in patients with alopecia using diphencyprone. A review of psoralen–UV-A therapy for alopecia areata by Taylor and Hawk21 revealed that phototherapy was disappointing, with minimal benefit. Therefore, this aromatherapy trial, with an improvement rate of 44%, is comparable to and possibly of more benefit than trials of conventional therapies for alopecia areata. Compared with these other treatments, its safety is also greater, offering a better therapeutic ratio.
Accepted for publication April 16, 1998.
michael barry
Senior Member
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Orin,
If you are going to peruse Needling, why not just copy what Follica is doing as much as possible in their patent? You can cop much of what they are up to. Needling will form uneccessary scar tissue and we dont want that.....
Ive read through their patent, and some of the substances they use are things we wont be able to get our hands on (but perhaps can get a few more than you'd think if you order them from chemical companies-----murine fiberblast growth factor can be obtained for instance).
1) They pluck the hairs or depilate them with nair.
2) Wait three full days
3) They abrade (dermabrasion). Sandpaper is mentioned in the patent. The epilithial layer is removed and the skin is smooth and shiny and pink afterwards.
4) Wait three to four more days-----no healing ointment, no-anti-infective (alcohol) and no bandages (dont sleep on it) can be used during this all-important period or re-epilithialization. To be honest, just dunking your head under bathwater might be the best way to "shampoo" during this short time.
5) They apply wnt protiens, and we dont have those, but they mention any lithium compound. Lithium Chloride which can be bought from some chemical companies mimics many wnt compounds in the skin. Mixed with water applied to a moist, warm scalp............probably would get some in the dermis. Taking garlic during this time (trace amounts of lithium in garlic) might also see more lithium in the scalp via the bloodstream. They mention minoxidil in the patent also. It has alcohol. I suppose one could take the loniten tablets (minoxidil) from day 3 or 4 through about day 8 or so (4-5 days). They mention things that up NO. Argninine ups NO, that could be taken during this time also. Lithium would be the most important thing. They mention anti-androgens to be used during this time. After day 3 until day 8 or so at (days 3-12, with day 1 being the wounding day, are what is first proferred in the patent), finasteride and maybe even internal spironolactone for five days would probably really aid the effectiveness.
Their patent is online. Alot of older women have dermabrasion done three or four times a year with no long term skin damage, but with needling............one is making scar tissue. If I were you, and Im not, I'd read the patent very carefully and abrade with sandpaper and try to emulate what they do as much as possible. I'd at least take garlic internally around the weeks I needled to increase my chances of lithium being around the wounded area, but I really do think sandpaper abrasion would be much better because Follica found that wounds that covered a sqare cm or so are what really showed improvements in hair. The biggest factor in the amount of hair they shown was wnt7a being present. It increased the de noveau haircounts from something like 9 in the abraded area to 140.
I hope you have success in whatever you do 'up there', but hope you dont create too much scar tissue if you choose to needle.
If you are going to peruse Needling, why not just copy what Follica is doing as much as possible in their patent? You can cop much of what they are up to. Needling will form uneccessary scar tissue and we dont want that.....
Ive read through their patent, and some of the substances they use are things we wont be able to get our hands on (but perhaps can get a few more than you'd think if you order them from chemical companies-----murine fiberblast growth factor can be obtained for instance).
1) They pluck the hairs or depilate them with nair.
2) Wait three full days
3) They abrade (dermabrasion). Sandpaper is mentioned in the patent. The epilithial layer is removed and the skin is smooth and shiny and pink afterwards.
4) Wait three to four more days-----no healing ointment, no-anti-infective (alcohol) and no bandages (dont sleep on it) can be used during this all-important period or re-epilithialization. To be honest, just dunking your head under bathwater might be the best way to "shampoo" during this short time.
5) They apply wnt protiens, and we dont have those, but they mention any lithium compound. Lithium Chloride which can be bought from some chemical companies mimics many wnt compounds in the skin. Mixed with water applied to a moist, warm scalp............probably would get some in the dermis. Taking garlic during this time (trace amounts of lithium in garlic) might also see more lithium in the scalp via the bloodstream. They mention minoxidil in the patent also. It has alcohol. I suppose one could take the loniten tablets (minoxidil) from day 3 or 4 through about day 8 or so (4-5 days). They mention things that up NO. Argninine ups NO, that could be taken during this time also. Lithium would be the most important thing. They mention anti-androgens to be used during this time. After day 3 until day 8 or so at (days 3-12, with day 1 being the wounding day, are what is first proferred in the patent), finasteride and maybe even internal spironolactone for five days would probably really aid the effectiveness.
Their patent is online. Alot of older women have dermabrasion done three or four times a year with no long term skin damage, but with needling............one is making scar tissue. If I were you, and Im not, I'd read the patent very carefully and abrade with sandpaper and try to emulate what they do as much as possible. I'd at least take garlic internally around the weeks I needled to increase my chances of lithium being around the wounded area, but I really do think sandpaper abrasion would be much better because Follica found that wounds that covered a sqare cm or so are what really showed improvements in hair. The biggest factor in the amount of hair they shown was wnt7a being present. It increased the de noveau haircounts from something like 9 in the abraded area to 140.
I hope you have success in whatever you do 'up there', but hope you dont create too much scar tissue if you choose to needle.
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Bornthisway.........
I have a hunch that cedarwood oil is an anti-androgen. If someone would put it on one side of their beard for 3-4 months, they could confirm this.
I have a hunch that cedarwood oil is an anti-androgen. If someone would put it on one side of their beard for 3-4 months, they could confirm this.
Thank you for your input, Berry.
I'd disagree that the kind of needling I do creates any scar tissue to speak of; the fact that it heals completly after one day, and similar methods are used to actually decrease scar-tissue seems to show otherwise. Also, based on the data that I have myself experienced, ie, that hair that could not possibly come from anything other than needling is now (as far as I can see them, could be loads more all over my scalp), cover pretty much my entire left side of my hairline. A conservative measure would put it to about 50 new hairs, though my skin-tone and hair-color makes it extremly hard to accurately count.
They can however both be felt and seen, and far exceeds anything I've tried before, better than the growth (in both numbers, quality and time) I got from propecia (and then dutasteride), nizoral and laser-brush. Sure, it's a gamble, and I don't have any super-microscope nor the clairvoyance needed to accurately tell if I'm doing any long-term damage, but everything I'm seeing seems to show otherwise. This kind of needling is used through dermarollers (though my needles go deeper) to provide collagen, evening out skin-tone and *removing* scarred tissue. I'm thinking this kind of needling calls healing attention to the scalp, rather than damaging it, which is the reason for the burst of regrowth in a mere meager 6 weeks. As mentioned, needling also gives several advantages that I don't think I am ready to turn down, such as giving me healthy, shiny and most of all strong hair. My hair looks and behaves like it has styling products in it when it doesn't. Before I needled/lasered extensively, my hair would look awful and just lay flat, crawled across my head in a terribly unappealing way. I guess I'm too narcissistic, or envious of people with normal hair.
Currently I am using lithium (orotate) solved in alcohol twice daily, and every other day or so I very gently needle the dermabraded area to increase absorption. Because I am operating in the dark, and have a pretty restricted budget, I will limit my Follica-approximation to this; dermabration, waiting 3-4 days (waited 4 days this time), and then lithium twice daily for 10 days. I *may* pluck some hair if this proves successful, but I suspect needling recreates the plucking effect.. in any case, since I don't know for sure, I don't want to pluck any hair as of yet. If this proves to work only half as good as follica's way of doing it, and if I can repeat it several times, then I don't see the point in plucking hairs.
You could say that time is on my side. Though I've been somewhat spoiled by quick results from needling, I am happy to just be in the right direction, as well as having the privilege to be in the wave of new methods for hairloss. It's about time we've stepped out of the terrible early 90's and its products as the only means of combating hairloss. Beside giving a very basic safety net, it's abudantly clear that they're at best marginally effective, and I'm not settling for marginally effective.
The body obviously knows how to create new hairs. The fact that everyone is loosing their mind over it is due to the grossly dissproportionate importance we've given to headhair. Regenerating nerves is by far more impressive, from a slightly more objective point of view.
I will give your sandpaper idea some consideration.. I've actually though about the dermabrasion itself.. the two times I've done it now I've used needles, and since I did not know what to aim for, I kinda peeled of the outermost layer, which did produce some bloodletting. The first wound is about two to two-and-a-half weeks old, and I can still see a very faint pink outline. This will naturally fade of course, though I'm suspecting that I went needlessly deep. In both instances I developed a wound-crust all over the area, though I don't know if that is the case with dermabrasion also. It peeled off completly on day three though, revealing pink skin underneath, so I don't worry too much about it. The next time I will try to be more gentle, but because I do not want to shave my head, I think I have to continue using needles as opposed to sandpapering.
This is a first for me, so I guess I'm allowed some newbie-misstakes.
Again, would be wonderful knowing if anyone else tried to approximate the Follica patent. As far as I can tell, I'm doing just the bare minimum. Hopefully it will be enough for some substantial regrowth, bu you never know. I guess some healthy trial and error is the only alternative to full on industrial espionate on Follica.
I'd disagree that the kind of needling I do creates any scar tissue to speak of; the fact that it heals completly after one day, and similar methods are used to actually decrease scar-tissue seems to show otherwise. Also, based on the data that I have myself experienced, ie, that hair that could not possibly come from anything other than needling is now (as far as I can see them, could be loads more all over my scalp), cover pretty much my entire left side of my hairline. A conservative measure would put it to about 50 new hairs, though my skin-tone and hair-color makes it extremly hard to accurately count.
They can however both be felt and seen, and far exceeds anything I've tried before, better than the growth (in both numbers, quality and time) I got from propecia (and then dutasteride), nizoral and laser-brush. Sure, it's a gamble, and I don't have any super-microscope nor the clairvoyance needed to accurately tell if I'm doing any long-term damage, but everything I'm seeing seems to show otherwise. This kind of needling is used through dermarollers (though my needles go deeper) to provide collagen, evening out skin-tone and *removing* scarred tissue. I'm thinking this kind of needling calls healing attention to the scalp, rather than damaging it, which is the reason for the burst of regrowth in a mere meager 6 weeks. As mentioned, needling also gives several advantages that I don't think I am ready to turn down, such as giving me healthy, shiny and most of all strong hair. My hair looks and behaves like it has styling products in it when it doesn't. Before I needled/lasered extensively, my hair would look awful and just lay flat, crawled across my head in a terribly unappealing way. I guess I'm too narcissistic, or envious of people with normal hair.
Currently I am using lithium (orotate) solved in alcohol twice daily, and every other day or so I very gently needle the dermabraded area to increase absorption. Because I am operating in the dark, and have a pretty restricted budget, I will limit my Follica-approximation to this; dermabration, waiting 3-4 days (waited 4 days this time), and then lithium twice daily for 10 days. I *may* pluck some hair if this proves successful, but I suspect needling recreates the plucking effect.. in any case, since I don't know for sure, I don't want to pluck any hair as of yet. If this proves to work only half as good as follica's way of doing it, and if I can repeat it several times, then I don't see the point in plucking hairs.
You could say that time is on my side. Though I've been somewhat spoiled by quick results from needling, I am happy to just be in the right direction, as well as having the privilege to be in the wave of new methods for hairloss. It's about time we've stepped out of the terrible early 90's and its products as the only means of combating hairloss. Beside giving a very basic safety net, it's abudantly clear that they're at best marginally effective, and I'm not settling for marginally effective.
The body obviously knows how to create new hairs. The fact that everyone is loosing their mind over it is due to the grossly dissproportionate importance we've given to headhair. Regenerating nerves is by far more impressive, from a slightly more objective point of view.
I will give your sandpaper idea some consideration.. I've actually though about the dermabrasion itself.. the two times I've done it now I've used needles, and since I did not know what to aim for, I kinda peeled of the outermost layer, which did produce some bloodletting. The first wound is about two to two-and-a-half weeks old, and I can still see a very faint pink outline. This will naturally fade of course, though I'm suspecting that I went needlessly deep. In both instances I developed a wound-crust all over the area, though I don't know if that is the case with dermabrasion also. It peeled off completly on day three though, revealing pink skin underneath, so I don't worry too much about it. The next time I will try to be more gentle, but because I do not want to shave my head, I think I have to continue using needles as opposed to sandpapering.
This is a first for me, so I guess I'm allowed some newbie-misstakes.
Again, would be wonderful knowing if anyone else tried to approximate the Follica patent. As far as I can tell, I'm doing just the bare minimum. Hopefully it will be enough for some substantial regrowth, bu you never know. I guess some healthy trial and error is the only alternative to full on industrial espionate on Follica
.michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Orin,
Here is the Follica patent, http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo= ... SPLAY=DESC
I want you to look at this example from the patent. Its "experiment 7" and the only one they shared with us that was HUMAN SKIN grafted onto a SCID mouse growing HUMAN hair.:
EXAMPLE 7
EDIHN-INDUCES NEW HAIR FOLLICLES IN HUMAN SKIN
MATERIALS AND EXPERIMENTAL METHODS
Grafting
[000210] Discarded human, adult scalp from the preauricular area obtained from plastic surgery was grafted onto immunodeficient (scid) mice. The graft was bandaged and allowed to heal, then was used in the wound healing study 3 months after grafting.
RESULTS
[000211 ] To determine whether human skin responded to EDIHN as did mouse skin, human skin was grafted onto SCID (immuno-deficient) mice and subjected to depilation by plucking and wound induction three days later. Seven days following wound induction, formation of new HF was observed in the human skin (Figure 2 IA; arrows indicate new HF) by hematoxylin and eosin staining of paraffin embedded tissue sections.
[000212] In additional experiments, adult human skin was grafted onto mice., abraded, and examined at 7 days post-abrasion. New HF were generated in the human skkx, which mimicked normal hair follicle formation during fetal development, as evidenced by staining for SlOO A6 or S100A4 (Figure 21B).
P-7628-PC
[000213] The results of this Example show that EDIHN can be used to generate hair growth inhuman skin as for mouse skin.
Me again Orin........
If you have read the patent, the time frame with human hair germs being detected in the dermis after the abrasion is the "shocker" in reading of that particular experiment. I didn't even notice it for a week or two. In the mice experiments, hair isn't detected until days 11 and 12 or so, but human hair germs were detected in the dermis a mere 7 days post abrasion.
The conclusion is clear.....................the re-epilithialization period of human skin is much shorter than it is with a mouse. In the patent they discuss the time frames of adding a compound that promotes differentation of skin cells into hair cells. The earliest they mention adding anything to the wounded area is 3 days post injury, but they go as far as 6 and 7 days. Im betting day 4 post injury would be about the "sweet spot". Keep in mind Orin, to replicate their experiments as closely as possible, one needs to think about how the mice were treated. Mice dont shampoo or even get their coats wet. To be honest, as "unfun" as that would be.....................for at least 4 days this would be the best thing to do.
Also you mentioned that you are having better growth on one side...................do you sleep on the side with weaker growth? They mention no bandages in the patent. They want the skin to air-heal like an animals in the wild after an injury. They want no ointments or any anti-infectives. Alcohol for instance is used as an anti-infective. I mean what I say about washing with water (just dunk your head under the bathwater for a minute or so) during this time.
Orin, you can look in the patent and find a black and white picture of hairs growing on a mouse from wounding. They are growing together thickly. Ive seen two photos....................and the new hair on the mice came in quite thick......just like the surrounding area. It would take a while to see it in a human though....................just because a HAIR GERM is detected, it would probably be a couple of more weeks before the new hair broke the skin.......
Ive put together something you could try based on things that are in their patent...........................
Day one-------------abrade your scalp with sandpaper, start taking finasteride
Day FOUR.................(lithium chloride used to be used as salt, but its toxic in large doses and over long periods of time)...
Buy apples (I'll explain about the apples in a second) and use lithium chloride as salt and cut them in
sections and use the lithium chloride on them. They will
taste like a salted apple. Id eat about three a day this way for about five full days. Id take arginine
during this time also.
Day ten...................you would be "through", but to speed things up perhaps you could keep using the arginine and stay
on finasteride until new hairs appeared.
Why the apples you ask? In the patent they discuss enhancing the process by using blockers of epidermal growth factor. Apples have a substance that interfere with epidermal growth factor receptors. Im pretty damn sure that pure apple juice from real apples that you made with a blender would have the precise polyphenols that did this, but injesting three a day would almost surely get some of them to your scalp. It would also be easier to have the lithium getting to your scalp via the bloodstream. They are very particular in the patent about any anti-infective not being used. Salts (lithium chloride is a salt) would of course be anti-infective. Other lithium compounds that arent' salts might not be, but lithium chloride supposedly is the best lithium compound for mimicking wnt signalls in human skin.
If this didn't work for you.......................you could always make apple juice out of real apples (blender) and mix lithium chloride in it (no alcohol----it reacts), and get your head wet with warm water and place on your hydrated scalp.
If you prefer needling.............................the same thing should apply with the arginine, apples, lithium chloride. If I was going to do minoxidil, I think I'd do it internally until at least day 9 or so when I knew hairs were already forming. minoxidil usually has PPG or alcohol and again, you dont want an anti-infective. The longest stuff is take for in the patent is 9 days post-wounding................................so there is no reason to still be taking the lithium after that time. The arginine might make the hairs appear sooner though because Nitric Oxide speeds up hair growth. The other stuff in the patent is more exotic and harder to get ahold of. I have lithium chloride. Its cheap from many chemical comapanies. Im thinking about doing this myself.
Orin,
Whatever you do, I hope you keep us informed as to your success and what you did and didn't do to be successful. I'd love for some guy to luck up on something.
I do fear that the hairs made will have to have finasteride to maintain them in the male pattern baldness-area however. One might have to be on finas to keep what this makes..................I'd love to be wrong about that though. Good luck !
Here is the Follica patent, http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo= ... SPLAY=DESC
I want you to look at this example from the patent. Its "experiment 7" and the only one they shared with us that was HUMAN SKIN grafted onto a SCID mouse growing HUMAN hair.:
EXAMPLE 7
EDIHN-INDUCES NEW HAIR FOLLICLES IN HUMAN SKIN
MATERIALS AND EXPERIMENTAL METHODS
Grafting
[000210] Discarded human, adult scalp from the preauricular area obtained from plastic surgery was grafted onto immunodeficient (scid) mice. The graft was bandaged and allowed to heal, then was used in the wound healing study 3 months after grafting.
RESULTS
[000211 ] To determine whether human skin responded to EDIHN as did mouse skin, human skin was grafted onto SCID (immuno-deficient) mice and subjected to depilation by plucking and wound induction three days later. Seven days following wound induction, formation of new HF was observed in the human skin (Figure 2 IA; arrows indicate new HF) by hematoxylin and eosin staining of paraffin embedded tissue sections.
[000212] In additional experiments, adult human skin was grafted onto mice., abraded, and examined at 7 days post-abrasion. New HF were generated in the human skkx, which mimicked normal hair follicle formation during fetal development, as evidenced by staining for SlOO A6 or S100A4 (Figure 21B).
P-7628-PC
[000213] The results of this Example show that EDIHN can be used to generate hair growth inhuman skin as for mouse skin.
Me again Orin........
If you have read the patent, the time frame with human hair germs being detected in the dermis after the abrasion is the "shocker" in reading of that particular experiment. I didn't even notice it for a week or two. In the mice experiments, hair isn't detected until days 11 and 12 or so, but human hair germs were detected in the dermis a mere 7 days post abrasion.
The conclusion is clear.....................the re-epilithialization period of human skin is much shorter than it is with a mouse. In the patent they discuss the time frames of adding a compound that promotes differentation of skin cells into hair cells. The earliest they mention adding anything to the wounded area is 3 days post injury, but they go as far as 6 and 7 days. Im betting day 4 post injury would be about the "sweet spot". Keep in mind Orin, to replicate their experiments as closely as possible, one needs to think about how the mice were treated. Mice dont shampoo or even get their coats wet. To be honest, as "unfun" as that would be.....................for at least 4 days this would be the best thing to do.
Also you mentioned that you are having better growth on one side...................do you sleep on the side with weaker growth? They mention no bandages in the patent. They want the skin to air-heal like an animals in the wild after an injury. They want no ointments or any anti-infectives. Alcohol for instance is used as an anti-infective. I mean what I say about washing with water (just dunk your head under the bathwater for a minute or so) during this time.
Orin, you can look in the patent and find a black and white picture of hairs growing on a mouse from wounding. They are growing together thickly. Ive seen two photos....................and the new hair on the mice came in quite thick......just like the surrounding area. It would take a while to see it in a human though....................just because a HAIR GERM is detected, it would probably be a couple of more weeks before the new hair broke the skin.......
Ive put together something you could try based on things that are in their patent...........................
Day one-------------abrade your scalp with sandpaper, start taking finasteride
Day FOUR.................(lithium chloride used to be used as salt, but its toxic in large doses and over long periods of time)...
Buy apples (I'll explain about the apples in a second) and use lithium chloride as salt and cut them in
sections and use the lithium chloride on them. They will
taste like a salted apple. Id eat about three a day this way for about five full days. Id take arginine
during this time also.
Day ten...................you would be "through", but to speed things up perhaps you could keep using the arginine and stay
on finasteride until new hairs appeared.
Why the apples you ask? In the patent they discuss enhancing the process by using blockers of epidermal growth factor. Apples have a substance that interfere with epidermal growth factor receptors. Im pretty damn sure that pure apple juice from real apples that you made with a blender would have the precise polyphenols that did this, but injesting three a day would almost surely get some of them to your scalp. It would also be easier to have the lithium getting to your scalp via the bloodstream. They are very particular in the patent about any anti-infective not being used. Salts (lithium chloride is a salt) would of course be anti-infective. Other lithium compounds that arent' salts might not be, but lithium chloride supposedly is the best lithium compound for mimicking wnt signalls in human skin.
If this didn't work for you.......................you could always make apple juice out of real apples (blender) and mix lithium chloride in it (no alcohol----it reacts), and get your head wet with warm water and place on your hydrated scalp.
If you prefer needling.............................the same thing should apply with the arginine, apples, lithium chloride. If I was going to do minoxidil, I think I'd do it internally until at least day 9 or so when I knew hairs were already forming. minoxidil usually has PPG or alcohol and again, you dont want an anti-infective. The longest stuff is take for in the patent is 9 days post-wounding................................so there is no reason to still be taking the lithium after that time. The arginine might make the hairs appear sooner though because Nitric Oxide speeds up hair growth. The other stuff in the patent is more exotic and harder to get ahold of. I have lithium chloride. Its cheap from many chemical comapanies. Im thinking about doing this myself.
Orin,
Whatever you do, I hope you keep us informed as to your success and what you did and didn't do to be successful. I'd love for some guy to luck up on something.
I do fear that the hairs made will have to have finasteride to maintain them in the male pattern baldness-area however. One might have to be on finas to keep what this makes..................I'd love to be wrong about that though. Good luck !
saucemcbrolock
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 0
I have diffuse thining all over my head and some serious thinning in the crown. I wasnt really loosing hair intill i started using steroids. Im not sure if i was suppost to go bald or not, or if i just sped up the process.
Any way i havent used steroids in about 6 months. I have however grown alot of hair back from using minoxidil. It sort of like when using minoxidil my whole head is covered with hair, its just that my hair has to be kept short because some of the hairs are so miniaturized that they only work to fill in. I have however stopped using the minoxdil because it bloates my face and gives me severe wrinkles at 25 years old. so all that hair that the minoxidil grew has fallen out and my hair is diffusly thinned out.
So as of now its like if i look at my hair under the light its easy to see that my hairs are spead out and unhealthy looking, but most others have no idea.
I do notice that places where i am missing hair, especially my widows peak that i can see the holes where the follicles where and they look like its like dry skin damage all over them. I wonder if i was to nair my head or use some sort of dermabrasion technique if its possible that most of the hairs would be able to come back through. because they do grow from minoxidil and i dont have the excess dht around any more? thanks
Any way i havent used steroids in about 6 months. I have however grown alot of hair back from using minoxidil. It sort of like when using minoxidil my whole head is covered with hair, its just that my hair has to be kept short because some of the hairs are so miniaturized that they only work to fill in. I have however stopped using the minoxdil because it bloates my face and gives me severe wrinkles at 25 years old. so all that hair that the minoxidil grew has fallen out and my hair is diffusly thinned out.
So as of now its like if i look at my hair under the light its easy to see that my hairs are spead out and unhealthy looking, but most others have no idea.
I do notice that places where i am missing hair, especially my widows peak that i can see the holes where the follicles where and they look like its like dry skin damage all over them. I wonder if i was to nair my head or use some sort of dermabrasion technique if its possible that most of the hairs would be able to come back through. because they do grow from minoxidil and i dont have the excess dht around any more? thanks
- saucemcbrolock
I've never used minoxidil, but if you're having success with it, you could do a google-search for "needling" and "minoxidil". You should be able to find the report that claims up to 4000% better absorption rate if needling is used in conjunction with minoxodil, as it apparently doesn't get through the scalp well enough on its own. The pictures are pretty impressive if you can find them.
- Barry
I appreciate your input and information, but as I've pointed out, I don't want to overdo it when I'm working with such unknown factors. For now I will keep it as simple as possible. The flip side is that if I get some substantial regrowth with lithium and wounding, that should be a clear indication on its own, should it not? From then we can add more of the building blocks from the patent.
About the growth being weaker on one side; no I've made a point of trying *not* to sleep on the side that I've dermabraded, though even if I did twist into it during sleep, I doubt it has too much of an effec - negative or otherwise. I mean, mice sleep too, and sometimes brushed up against stuff.
I'm also alittle confused about the anti-infectant.. the lithium I use is orotate as I've stated before, and I cannot mix it with anything other than alcohol . I have no means of ordering Lithium Chloride, that does mix with water, so this has to do for now. On the other hand, minoxodil is mentioned in the patent, which does have alcohol, though maybe it doesn't go into detail on its use. Furthermore, it is quite possible that Follica themself use lithium since it's so cheap and would qualify as "already being in previously approved products".
I guess ultimately I would like it if I could have some lithium chloride mixed in water, but unless someone can give me a link that ships it to europe then that is a no go. I dermabraded my hand with sandpaper to see what it was like.. I don't recommend it because you move the skin of your hand a lot more than your scalp so it hurts a lot more. It's on day three now and very closely resembles the wound I got from my make-shift needle-brush (which I don't use for needling, just dermabrading). I think it's important to point out that I dermabrade AND needle, while the former I've only done once so far. I personally do not think needling creates the optimal kind of wound for creating new hair, or atleast, is not as effective as dermabraded sin does. Though as stated, I continue to needle for similar, and synergetic reasons.
Oh and when I dermabraded my temple I didn't use any shampoo for the 4 days, and when I did, as I do now, I use an organic shampoo that claims to be good for hair loss. It's called Lamas chinese something-or-other. Beside the organic hippy bullcrap, it has a lot of poentially viable ingredient in it, like mint oil and I think licorice. Anyway, it's mild, effective at g iving my hair some life withoiut being harsh, and smells really nice. My sweet-tooth awakens everytime I use it.
I'll keep you posted; specifically in 6 weeks when the results independant from needling should start to pop up. If I see substantial growth in that area I know where it is from. I'm also toying with the idea of dermabrading and lithium-pouring the right side, the weak one. Since it obviously doesn't respond to needling, then IF it responds to lithium, I have an better marker for success. But, again, probably not until the results from the temple is in, or until I can find a way to get chloride. Is orotate much worse in terms of mimicking WnT?
I've never used minoxidil, but if you're having success with it, you could do a google-search for "needling" and "minoxidil". You should be able to find the report that claims up to 4000% better absorption rate if needling is used in conjunction with minoxodil, as it apparently doesn't get through the scalp well enough on its own. The pictures are pretty impressive if you can find them.
- Barry
I appreciate your input and information, but as I've pointed out, I don't want to overdo it when I'm working with such unknown factors. For now I will keep it as simple as possible. The flip side is that if I get some substantial regrowth with lithium and wounding, that should be a clear indication on its own, should it not? From then we can add more of the building blocks from the patent.
About the growth being weaker on one side; no I've made a point of trying *not* to sleep on the side that I've dermabraded, though even if I did twist into it during sleep, I doubt it has too much of an effec - negative or otherwise. I mean, mice sleep too, and sometimes brushed up against stuff.
I'm also alittle confused about the anti-infectant.. the lithium I use is orotate as I've stated before, and I cannot mix it with anything other than alcohol . I have no means of ordering Lithium Chloride, that does mix with water, so this has to do for now. On the other hand, minoxodil is mentioned in the patent, which does have alcohol, though maybe it doesn't go into detail on its use. Furthermore, it is quite possible that Follica themself use lithium since it's so cheap and would qualify as "already being in previously approved products".
I guess ultimately I would like it if I could have some lithium chloride mixed in water, but unless someone can give me a link that ships it to europe then that is a no go. I dermabraded my hand with sandpaper to see what it was like.. I don't recommend it because you move the skin of your hand a lot more than your scalp so it hurts a lot more. It's on day three now and very closely resembles the wound I got from my make-shift needle-brush (which I don't use for needling, just dermabrading). I think it's important to point out that I dermabrade AND needle, while the former I've only done once so far. I personally do not think needling creates the optimal kind of wound for creating new hair, or atleast, is not as effective as dermabraded sin does. Though as stated, I continue to needle for similar, and synergetic reasons.
Oh and when I dermabraded my temple I didn't use any shampoo for the 4 days, and when I did, as I do now, I use an organic shampoo that claims to be good for hair loss. It's called Lamas chinese something-or-other. Beside the organic hippy bullcrap, it has a lot of poentially viable ingredient in it, like mint oil and I think licorice. Anyway, it's mild, effective at g iving my hair some life withoiut being harsh, and smells really nice. My sweet-tooth awakens everytime I use it.
I'll keep you posted; specifically in 6 weeks when the results independant from needling should start to pop up. If I see substantial growth in that area I know where it is from. I'm also toying with the idea of dermabrading and lithium-pouring the right side, the weak one. Since it obviously doesn't respond to needling, then IF it responds to lithium, I have an better marker for success. But, again, probably not until the results from the temple is in, or until I can find a way to get chloride. Is orotate much worse in terms of mimicking WnT?
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
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Orin,
If you read their patent, they tell you pretty much what they intend to do.
Day 1, they will pluck hair
Day 3, they abrade the balding area, removing the epilithial layer
Day 6 or 7 or even 8....they start applying their compound----the most important factor of which will be wnt7a . They keep
applying the compound until at the most 12 days after the wounding date. Thats it.
The reason they do "nothing" from day 3 to day 6 or 7 is that they want the skin to re-epilithialize. Its the epilithial cells that are going to make the hair. So for at least three days, and probably four after the wounding..............they do nothing. No soap, no bandages, no ointments, any of that. When the skin is re-epilithialized THATS when they add the lithium along with the EGF-receptor blocker. Why Epidermal Growth Factor receptor blocker? Because they dont want the skin to regrow, the body then makes the choice to make a hair follicle instead (hair follicles are the "command center" in skin renewal). The want the body to think the skin is too injured to simply make more skin at the surface level.
Ive seen the pictures of the hair regrowth they have had......................they are very impressive. If you want to have big-time success with it, it would be best to ape what they do as much as possible. They mention "lithium compounds" in the patent, so any of them would be useful. I have read that lithium chloride in particular is a good mimetic of wnt in human skin----but the oronate would probably be fine. They are giong into human testing soon, so we will see what kind of success that they have.
If you read their patent, they tell you pretty much what they intend to do.
Day 1, they will pluck hair
Day 3, they abrade the balding area, removing the epilithial layer
Day 6 or 7 or even 8....they start applying their compound----the most important factor of which will be wnt7a . They keep
applying the compound until at the most 12 days after the wounding date. Thats it.
The reason they do "nothing" from day 3 to day 6 or 7 is that they want the skin to re-epilithialize. Its the epilithial cells that are going to make the hair. So for at least three days, and probably four after the wounding..............they do nothing. No soap, no bandages, no ointments, any of that. When the skin is re-epilithialized THATS when they add the lithium along with the EGF-receptor blocker. Why Epidermal Growth Factor receptor blocker? Because they dont want the skin to regrow, the body then makes the choice to make a hair follicle instead (hair follicles are the "command center" in skin renewal). The want the body to think the skin is too injured to simply make more skin at the surface level.
Ive seen the pictures of the hair regrowth they have had......................they are very impressive. If you want to have big-time success with it, it would be best to ape what they do as much as possible. They mention "lithium compounds" in the patent, so any of them would be useful. I have read that lithium chloride in particular is a good mimetic of wnt in human skin----but the oronate would probably be fine. They are giong into human testing soon, so we will see what kind of success that they have.
yeah, the human testing seems promising, but I'm an impatient (and poor) man. And I'm also a bit of a DIY'er.
About the skin-growth blocker... would it be enough to mix lithium + water/alcohol and extract of this apple-thing? Or does that not exist? I suppose one *could* buy some high-grade apple-juice, or even mix the shavings of green baby apples in a blender until it's liquid, but it sounds incredibly sticky and messy to actually apply. An extract would be optimal I guess, unless the active ingredient doesn't in that form.
I might consider looking into it on my next try, but for now I'm keeping it super simple. My test-run is done this friday and I just looked at the abraded area and it's covered in hair already, all of them from needling. This is both good and bad; good in that it means more hair for me (if they grow long and mature), but bad as it will be even harder to see how the lithium-exposed (if any) hair has developed.
Would you mind checking up on some source for the skin-growth inhibitor for me, if there is any such info on it? Like a commercial product.. it *sounds* as it should be in some health freak dietary supplemant store. God knows they put everything in pill-form nowadays to promote, the rather ambigiously defined, "health".
Oh and was there any data on subjects that only did plucking, wounding and lithium? As in, a trial that didn't involve skin-growth inhibition? Would be a bummer to have missed one of the most important factors. Though lithium no doubt ranks high up there, perhaps it only works well when the competition, skin growth, has been severly diminished.
I wish it wouldn't take 6 weeks though... I have so many questions and things to tinker with. Knowing myself I'll probably not be able to *not* do another , perhaps slightly modified, run on the weak-growth side of my head. Or even on the front and middle of scalp where most of my hairloss is. As long as I leave enough room to sleep on my back I guess I will be ok, and thankfully the back of my head seems to be the only place that really got anthing substantial out of conventional methods.
I also wish Follica would publish some new breakthroughs and offer an even better glimpse into what makes this tick. It wouldn't surprise me if they just went and Ockham's razored the whole hairloss problem in the very brief period of time they've existed as a company. It would be hillarious to find out that in the end, all you needed to grow back hair was some salt and a cup of apple-juice.
About the skin-growth blocker... would it be enough to mix lithium + water/alcohol and extract of this apple-thing? Or does that not exist? I suppose one *could* buy some high-grade apple-juice, or even mix the shavings of green baby apples in a blender until it's liquid, but it sounds incredibly sticky and messy to actually apply. An extract would be optimal I guess, unless the active ingredient doesn't in that form.
I might consider looking into it on my next try, but for now I'm keeping it super simple. My test-run is done this friday and I just looked at the abraded area and it's covered in hair already, all of them from needling. This is both good and bad; good in that it means more hair for me (if they grow long and mature), but bad as it will be even harder to see how the lithium-exposed (if any) hair has developed.
Would you mind checking up on some source for the skin-growth inhibitor for me, if there is any such info on it? Like a commercial product.. it *sounds* as it should be in some health freak dietary supplemant store. God knows they put everything in pill-form nowadays to promote, the rather ambigiously defined, "health".
Oh and was there any data on subjects that only did plucking, wounding and lithium? As in, a trial that didn't involve skin-growth inhibition? Would be a bummer to have missed one of the most important factors. Though lithium no doubt ranks high up there, perhaps it only works well when the competition, skin growth, has been severly diminished.
I wish it wouldn't take 6 weeks though... I have so many questions and things to tinker with. Knowing myself I'll probably not be able to *not* do another , perhaps slightly modified, run on the weak-growth side of my head. Or even on the front and middle of scalp where most of my hairloss is. As long as I leave enough room to sleep on my back I guess I will be ok, and thankfully the back of my head seems to be the only place that really got anthing substantial out of conventional methods.
I also wish Follica would publish some new breakthroughs and offer an even better glimpse into what makes this tick. It wouldn't surprise me if they just went and Ockham's razored the whole hairloss problem in the very brief period of time they've existed as a company. It would be hillarious to find out that in the end, all you needed to grow back hair was some salt and a cup of apple-juice.
Do you think that demoabrasion alone could increae hair diameter in zones with thinning hair?
This could be stupid but ICX obtains good results "stimulating" scalp previous the injections. My take is that is curious that changes in hair diameters and density comes magically with the use of that stimulation.
Is posible that when you still has hair and you destroy your skin your cells try to repair the folicle and not need to be induced to make the hair that is still there.
Just a thought.
This could be stupid but ICX obtains good results "stimulating" scalp previous the injections. My take is that is curious that changes in hair diameters and density comes magically with the use of that stimulation.
Is posible that when you still has hair and you destroy your skin your cells try to repair the folicle and not need to be induced to make the hair that is still there.
Just a thought.
This follica news is very exciting and Im really hoping this prooves to be *it* in terms of regrowth. But, im a little worried in one aspect and thats the type of hair follicle that they get to germinate. How do they get specifically head follicles to grow and more specifically the type from your scalp, rather than say general body hair follicles? We already know that these types of follicles are very different beasts altogether, shown in cases where body hair has been transplanted onto the scalp, they a) refuse to grow in a more dense pattern than in the general body pattern (which suggests these follicles have signalling between one another) and b) refuse to grow longer than your average body hair also, resulting in very poor results.
On the mouses shown with the results, it doesnt matter of course because there is very little distinction between any type of hair present with it all growing to the same length and density, ie any follicles germinated will provide the correct results on a mouse. On a human it HAS to be scalp hair to provide the correct results. I dont know how this can be guaranteed with the follica procedure, unless there is just some innate property about the human scalp that will germinate scalp hair versus general body hair... hopefully this is indeed the case.
On the mouses shown with the results, it doesnt matter of course because there is very little distinction between any type of hair present with it all growing to the same length and density, ie any follicles germinated will provide the correct results on a mouse. On a human it HAS to be scalp hair to provide the correct results. I dont know how this can be guaranteed with the follica procedure, unless there is just some innate property about the human scalp that will germinate scalp hair versus general body hair... hopefully this is indeed the case.
That's a pretty good point. I bet if new follicles form it does so randomly or based on some genetic information. I'm not sure where the hair growth pattern would be derived from. Obviously people do not usually grow hair on their cheeks or forehead, but would their patent make this possible?