apparently not if the speed of 8000rpm is what A6 achieves my only hope is the going 1.mm to 2.5mm weekly is what ruined everyone's gains. i beleave round here they call that cope
Follica Microneedling Protocol Patent Disclosed
- Thread starter benjt2
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I think some of you guys are focusing way too much on RPMs. The idea behind Follica's protocol is to make a certain number of needle strikes in a given area. You can accomplish that with a device with 1 RPM...it would just take you a really long time to do it.
Having a pen with a high RPM will allow you to make a lot of strikes quickly. This is good for doctors and patients, since it reduces the amount of time needed for the procedure.
If your pen oscillates slower, you'll have to move it more slowly across the skin than you would if you were using Follica's device. How much slower? You'd have to do the math based on the specs of your device.
Having a pen with a high RPM will allow you to make a lot of strikes quickly. This is good for doctors and patients, since it reduces the amount of time needed for the procedure.
If your pen oscillates slower, you'll have to move it more slowly across the skin than you would if you were using Follica's device. How much slower? You'd have to do the math based on the specs of your device.
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Multiple people earlier in the thread seemed to think that not laying the needle strikes down in one pass up one pass across was not the same as going over again the same area with another pass . personally i dont see how 1600 strikes per cm laid at 10 or 20 passes is any different if done in the same session?
The fact that several people by now reported that "needling according to the Follica protocol feelds different afterwards" and that the effect feels "like a sunburn" gives me hope. Maybe they really figured something out that no one else did before.
Also, one reminder: We don't know whicch elements of the protocol are exactly critical and why, because we understand the biological processes too little. We don't know if there is an upper bound for wound density where the body just says "ok, this is different damage, I will trigger a different healing response now". Or depth of 0.8 to 1.0 mm. It might be that deeper damage (which damages blood vessels, capillaries and other stuff) might lead to a healing response which then recruits stem cells for healing the "supporting infrastructure" instead of the follicles. Or needling at least 2 cm into adjacent, non-bald areas. This might also be crucial for using quorum sensing.
We don't know what the consequences and importance of the different parameters are and why. Thus I advise to stick to them as closely as possible, to alter as little as possible.
I myself will start needling again according to Follica's protocol. I needled for almost a whole year before with no results (1.75 to 2.0 mm, once every two weeks on average, at TBPHP pen's highest speed setting), but maybe following their protocol as closely as I can will finally bring about positive effects.
It might also be that there is something else to their method which is not covered in the needling protocol. Maybe a certain post-needling substance or care routine which is required to really kick off follicle neogenesis. We don't know, but the fact that their valproic acid patent was published quite recently tells us that it might play an important role. I just hope Follica will be ready for market launch ASAP and until then I will at least try to replicate their needling protocol.
Who knows, maybe their protocol will finally show the effect that Dhurat-like needling did unfortunately not show.
Also, one reminder: We don't know whicch elements of the protocol are exactly critical and why, because we understand the biological processes too little. We don't know if there is an upper bound for wound density where the body just says "ok, this is different damage, I will trigger a different healing response now". Or depth of 0.8 to 1.0 mm. It might be that deeper damage (which damages blood vessels, capillaries and other stuff) might lead to a healing response which then recruits stem cells for healing the "supporting infrastructure" instead of the follicles. Or needling at least 2 cm into adjacent, non-bald areas. This might also be crucial for using quorum sensing.
We don't know what the consequences and importance of the different parameters are and why. Thus I advise to stick to them as closely as possible, to alter as little as possible.
I myself will start needling again according to Follica's protocol. I needled for almost a whole year before with no results (1.75 to 2.0 mm, once every two weeks on average, at TBPHP pen's highest speed setting), but maybe following their protocol as closely as I can will finally bring about positive effects.
It might also be that there is something else to their method which is not covered in the needling protocol. Maybe a certain post-needling substance or care routine which is required to really kick off follicle neogenesis. We don't know, but the fact that their valproic acid patent was published quite recently tells us that it might play an important role. I just hope Follica will be ready for market launch ASAP and until then I will at least try to replicate their needling protocol.
Who knows, maybe their protocol will finally show the effect that Dhurat-like needling did unfortunately not show.
Top speed means you were doing 18000 rpm follicas is 7200rprm means you would of easy to hit 1600 strikes per cm which is concerning i use to do 4 to 6 passes with a d2 at 2.0 and did not really have any after effects more intensive 1.0 hurts for 48hours straight hoping that means something im losing alot of skin today in temples like sunburn loss on day 5. only had blood flakes and dust in old style attempts
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What makes you think no one had good results? I've been using the A6 for a year and have been amazed with how effective its been.
I've pretty much followed the approach used by @74775446, which is effectively 6 passes at 2mm (applying no pressure), once a week I haven't paid much attention to what speed I was using, but based on this info, I'll be using the lowest speed setting and shifting my frequency to once every 2 weeks. I'm reluctant to change much else given the results I've had...
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There seems to be some confusion, so let me clear it up.
The derminator 2's highest speed setting operates at 25 Hz; that is, 25 stabs per second.
Suppose we are evenly needling a unit area of one cm^2. Suppose we are using the 12 needle head. The amount of time we should spend there to get 1600 stabs is:
Time = (1600 holes/cm^2)*(1 cm^2)/((12 holes/stab)*(25 stabs/second)) = 1600/(12*25) = 5.33 seconds.
If you are moving 1 cm^2 per second, you would need ~5 passes with the derminator to get the density suggested by the Follica patent.
In other words, if you go read the Derminator 2 manual, you would realize that Vaughter Wellness made a tool with the recommendation of 250 holes/cm^2; therefore, the highest speed on the derminator is 25 Hz, meaning one would have to make only a single pass at a speed of ~1 cm^2/second to reach the target quickly with a 9 or 12 needle head. This is what the company intended to achieve in a product that could deliver results with a fast procedure; speed minimizes pain and time lost.
According to the Follica patent, we actually require around 5x the needling density, and as such it takes 5x the time with the Derminator 2, as compared to how Vaughter Wellness recommends needling. Sessions with the Derminator 2 will take 5 times as long. Logically, Follica's microneedle head oscillates ~5x faster at 120 Hz to speed things up for a conveniently short session time. You may try to source a faster microneedling device than D2 if you wish, but note that Follica's patent states the importance of creating thin vertical holes. Perhaps cheaper options compromise penetration depth/hole profile. Proceed with caution.
The needle gauge recommended by Follica and used by Vaughter Wellness is approximately the same so there is no need to be concerned about the needle size with the D2.
Tl;dr: 12 needles on highest speed on D2 (25 Hz) means you need to spend ~5-6 seconds on each square cm of area you want to cover in order to reach 1600 holes/cm. Make sure you keep the needle moving so the holes are distributed as uniformly as possible. Do not just hold it still in one place. Make multiple passes in an area until all parts of the entire region experiences a "5-6 second dose" of needling at this setting.
The derminator 2's highest speed setting operates at 25 Hz; that is, 25 stabs per second.
Suppose we are evenly needling a unit area of one cm^2. Suppose we are using the 12 needle head. The amount of time we should spend there to get 1600 stabs is:
Time = (1600 holes/cm^2)*(1 cm^2)/((12 holes/stab)*(25 stabs/second)) = 1600/(12*25) = 5.33 seconds.
If you are moving 1 cm^2 per second, you would need ~5 passes with the derminator to get the density suggested by the Follica patent.
In other words, if you go read the Derminator 2 manual, you would realize that Vaughter Wellness made a tool with the recommendation of 250 holes/cm^2; therefore, the highest speed on the derminator is 25 Hz, meaning one would have to make only a single pass at a speed of ~1 cm^2/second to reach the target quickly with a 9 or 12 needle head. This is what the company intended to achieve in a product that could deliver results with a fast procedure; speed minimizes pain and time lost.
According to the Follica patent, we actually require around 5x the needling density, and as such it takes 5x the time with the Derminator 2, as compared to how Vaughter Wellness recommends needling. Sessions with the Derminator 2 will take 5 times as long. Logically, Follica's microneedle head oscillates ~5x faster at 120 Hz to speed things up for a conveniently short session time. You may try to source a faster microneedling device than D2 if you wish, but note that Follica's patent states the importance of creating thin vertical holes. Perhaps cheaper options compromise penetration depth/hole profile. Proceed with caution.
The needle gauge recommended by Follica and used by Vaughter Wellness is approximately the same so there is no need to be concerned about the needle size with the D2.
Tl;dr: 12 needles on highest speed on D2 (25 Hz) means you need to spend ~5-6 seconds on each square cm of area you want to cover in order to reach 1600 holes/cm. Make sure you keep the needle moving so the holes are distributed as uniformly as possible. Do not just hold it still in one place. Make multiple passes in an area until all parts of the entire region experiences a "5-6 second dose" of needling at this setting.
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The head diameter is not relevant for the calculation. I already posted about not staying in one spot for an extended period of time. The 5 second dose per 1 cm^2 is no more than the inverse of the movement rate - 1/5 cm^2 per second. See the derminator 2 manual regarding the calculation if you are still confused. Again, the amount of time is the average amount of time spent in a unit area; that is, I have simply given the rate at which one should needle if using D2. The D2 is also meant to be used in a constant circular motion. Used correctly, you will not hit 533 wounds three times. There should be no pausing. Hence the last bit about imagining each area receiving a total "dose" of about 5 seconds of exposure. This does not mean stay in one spot for 5 seconds. It also does not mean doing 1 cm^2 at a time, as that is too small of an area compared to how widely spaced the needles are, which I believe is what you take issue with. Rather the right technique is to evenly and in circular motions cover a large area, all over, over and over, until a total amount of time of [(area covered in cm^2)*5 seconds per cm^2] is reached, yielding an average time of around 5 seconds per unit area, or moving at an average speed of 1/5 cm^2/second. The average values are not the instantaneous values during treatment but with homogeneous passes, you will achieve something close to average.
Arguably, many passes in small circular motions at a lower frequency will give a more uniform hole distribution than a 12 needle head oscillating at 120 Hz aiming to get all the holes in a single pass - the latter is much more prone to the same-hole-striking problem you are concerned about, unless the motion of the needle and area covered are controlled very well. This is likely why Follica has arranged its needle head in a linear array and recommends a "lawnmower" pattern of treatment in its patent. On the other hand, the Derminator 2's manual explicitly warns against moving in a linear motion and instead suggest constant circular motions as the needles themselves are arranged in a circular pattern. The Derminator 2 cannot be used to make linear passes with a constant velocity, or else you are correct that it is possible to overlap holes if you move at a constant velocity that is the average velocity and want it done in one pass. The D2 is not designed to achieve a hole density of 1600 holes/cm^2 in a single pass lawn mower pattern. Hence we calculate the time to spend per unit area and make circular motions over a large area until we average 5 seconds spent per cm^2. The hole distribution will be quite random if you keep the head moving in small circular motions constantly.
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1500 / 60 = 25 wow im dumb for not seeing that. Thanks i understand a lot more now about times . moving in a precise pattern still going to be night mare without shaving my head or having second person do it. Yea i was hesitant on changing pens till i found one the same standard as the d2 but faster im skeptical that they don't sacrifice clean accurate wounds for speed.
interesting you hypothesizing the 120hz is more about "wham bam next customer please" rather than correct even strike/hole distribution ?
I believe the makers of the derminator have recently switched their recommendation to linear movement just like every dermatologist and Follica is now recommending. At least I think I saw them make a comment on Youtube regarding that. Either way, every dermatologist is now recommending linear movement over circular regardless of the device used. If you move the derminator 2 at a rate of .75cm/second and move up by 1/2cm at a time then you are getting 6 seconds of needling/cm², which equates to 1600 needle strikes when doing one x-axis pass and one y-axis pass. This is what I'm doing, and it works well enough. There is no need to do circular motions, but if that's what makes you comfortable then have at it. I'm sure either way will do just fine.
If you are using a circular motion then you are going over the same area repeatedly even if you are keeping it moving constantly. No, you're not going to hit 533 wounds 3 times, I was saying that as in illustration to make a point. By going over the same spot repeatedly a number of double strikes is unavoidable, so the less times you go over the same spot the better. With a circular motion you are running the needles over the same area several times during one pass. We can agree that the derminator is not ideal for this procedure, but I don't believe your circular method is any better. The only things I took issue with in your post was that everything you said has already been posted in this thread, and that you didn't make clear that you are talking about using a circular method, which does make the size of the needle array irrelevant for your method. If you are using the lawnmower method then it matters, which is why I pointed it out.
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I am not aware of that youtube comment, but respectfully I defer to the instructions in the derminator manual.
It is indeed possible to ensure no hole overlap in a steady speed, single pass, high frequency needle head. In the limiting case, it would be a single row of very closely packed needles, with the needle row oriented perpendicular to the needling direction. Obviously with one array of 6 needles one would need a needling frequency of 240 Hz for Follica's desired hole density and perhaps that was excessive, and I speculate that this is why Follica opted for a 120 Hz, two rows of 6 needle head. Nevertheless, their head consists of a narrow band of closely packed needles arranged perpendicular to the needling direction. Notice how close packed the needles are; the inter-needle spacing is about 3x the needle diameter. Also see that the second row is offset with respect to the first to avoid overlapping holes during a single pass and to yield an inter-hole spacing of approximately 1.5 needle diameters. This will deliver high density holes in a single linear sweep.
The D2 cartridge on the other hand has an inter-needle spacing of millimeters - wider than the spacing between two adjacent holes if 1600 holes/cm^2 are desired. Hence moving the D2 needle head linearly will leave "lines" of densely packed holes (potentially with overlapping needle strikes) in the direction of needling, and gaps between these "lines" in the perpendicular direction that are millimeters wide. This is my understanding of why a circular pattern (nominally random but evenly distributed pattern) is required with a needle head that has widely spaced needles, as explained by the D2 manual. This is also, I believe, why they device comes in with a time calculating function given area of coverage as input - the idea is to randomly and evenly cover the area until the time is up. With a single pass device like Follica's, the relevant parameter is the device's linear speed which has to be controlled accurately, rather than the session time.
I will have to disagree about the linear motion with the D2 head, but it is also clear to me that the design of Follica's needle head allows efficient single pass linear motion - again due to close packed needles arranged in a narrow array perpendicular to the needling direction, and this can really mitigate the hole overlap problem. Doing a linear motion with the D2 will not mitigate the overlap problem but will rather exacerbate it.
And yes you are right, this is not new information. I merely aimed to summarize bottom line for D2 users to get an idea of how to mimic Follica's protocol - about 5x passes on the highest setting, or if one prefers, 5x the session time, if one has been to doing it as per the Vaughter Wellness recommendations.
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1600 holes per cm2.
Think about that.
1600 per square inch would be a pretty incredible amount of holes, never mind 1600 per cm2.
All that hole-punching on the surface and only 0.8 mm deep. That's pretty shallow in medical terms. But it's going to "disrupt" the living hell out of the very top layer. It goes way beyond any normal dermarolling. I think they are using needles to approach a dermabrasion-like effect.
You know what's interesting about dermabrasion? Dermatologists have seen it forming all-new terminal follicles here and there. They first reported seeing it decades ago.
Think about another Follica detail: The hole-punching has to extend 2 cm beyond the area to be regrown. That's a long distance on the forehead of a paying customer. He's hoping his forehead won't look too torn-up and red at work on monday.
I don't think Follica would stipulate the distance of 2 whole centimeters if they didn't have to. They could have made it 0.5 cm and been satisfied that they covered the whole area to be regrown. I think the 2mm radius detail is more evidence that the treatment relies on activating the skin's healing processes. Whereas normal dermarolling is mainly just causing better absorption of topical drugs from the physical holes.
IMO you're selling Follica's treatment short. This will probably grow more hair than needling + minoxidil alone. How much, I don't know. But any regrowth at all = the best new treatment we've had in 30 years.
. . . . .
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So if im understanding if draw a 5cm circumference circle at 1 cm a second i would draw that circle for 56 seconds id get 1680 strikes in that 10cm area 56 x 25 x 12 / 10 - 1680 Tho width of the head is not 1cm squared. also would it helpful to draw practice circles on a4 paper then measure the average area of my hand motion circles to calculate the timings?
Thanks so a 200cm norward area if the head is shaved will take 17 mins of uninterrupted glorious sun kissed pain if done flawlessly.
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All these kids complaining about how they'll never need geometry later in life... This is where the magic happens
So would you say the derrminator is a better tool for this than the dr.pens you get?
I can clearly remember in maths class tramping my hair in my pen lid to rip out bloody follicle hair because i was bored LOL is geometry really going to save me if so im making a shrine to Euclid
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A 9th grade education should suffice but for sure the hopeless optimism
apparently the d2 needle needle gauge thickness is better tho i think a7 is best of the drpens for gauge.