For bryan and Foote.

[wookster]

So stop hemming and hawing: do you or do you not believe this and all the other studies showing a direct effect of androgens and antiandrogens on hair growth?

That is a good question. I still don't have enough information to believe in the androgen receptor theory but it is looking like androgens DO have some type of direct growth inhibiting effect on scalp hair follicles.

I suppose I should be more optimistic about this and see myself as gaining a larger forehead instead of being a loser of scalp hair.

:freaked:

 

[michael barry]

http://alpecin.com/en/pdf/alpecin_research_3.pdf

That study, which is going to be published in the International Journal of Dermatology in the coming months according to an email I got from Dr. Wolfe took 600 WHOLE hairs and slathered them with testosterone, testosterone and caffeine, control group. It was conducted at the University of Jena in Germany.

Alpecin may or may not work. Wolfe told me that it kept cAMP from being downregulated in expression. That cAMP is an "energy messenger" within the papilla. Who knows.


BUT>.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The effect of testosterone alone slowed hair growth in the 6-10 day culture model vs. what follicles (these are whole follicles) did on their own.



Wookie,
I was alot like you about 2 years ago now when I first started "looking for answers". I was given to look at alternative baldness theories because I felt that if the accepted theory was correct, why in the hell haven't they solved it yet? Stephen's theory was interesting because its the only one that has an explanation for transplanted hair growing (tissue scaffolds allowing for anagen phase enlargement). He also knows a great deal and has read alot and is intelligent. However, Science has shown that androgens DO INDEED have a direct effect on whole hair follicles cultured alone, or hair cells when the dermal papilla cells are present with other kinds of cells. Its not as big of an effect as most of us expected....................hairs didnt just shut down, but they definitely slow growth. Maybe thats all it takes for the immune cells circulating in the body to become interested in them, slower growth and the presence of the growth inhibitors that the papilla is releasing to the rest of the follicle. The chronic inflammation, immune response, growth inhibitors, oxides, etc. seem to do the big damage later, but maybe this is what gets it started. WE DO know that if a man gets castrated, it pretty much halts further balding according to Duke University researchers, and he'll even grow a little (not that much) back.

In short, all these very bright scientists, many of whom have lost some hair or are bald and would LOVE to stop it just like the two of us, arent wrong, and damn sure arent being paid off by hair transplant docs. A "cure" would put hair transplant docs out of business when the last cycle of men whove lost hair got their plugs as the newbies behind them would ARREST their baldness.



But take heart man, Intercytex is entering phase 2 HM trials in June or July. Most indications that pass phase 2 go on to market enentually. Soon we may be just multiplying our hippocratic wreath's hair cells 10-fold and nobody (unless they have alopecia totallis or universiallis) will have to be bald. Ive posted about some of Gho's latest work elsewhere on this forum, and he really does have a pic of impressive donor generation also, and a pic of a very bald danish guy who has much more hair than a transplant alone could give him (proving that he's had is donor area multiplied to an extent, although Gho can only move 600 hairs a day with his very labor intensive technique). There are reasons to be optomistic

 

[Bryan]

I still don't have enough information to believe in the androgen receptor theory but it is looking like androgens DO have some type of direct growth inhibiting effect on scalp hair follicles.

Well, that's the "Understatement of the Year"!

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

I still don't have enough information to believe in the androgen receptor theory but it is looking like androgens DO have some type of direct growth inhibiting effect on scalp hair follicles.

Well, that's the "Understatement of the Year"!

Bryan

No, no Bryan, that's a good reaction. Sometimes I have to read and re-read studies, etc., two, three, sometimes four times for it to sink in!

You've been studying male pattern baldness (and probably medical issues in general) for a long time. Remember that!

Wookie: I don't know if C-Reactive Protein is more prevalent in balding scalps. Never read anything saying that but male pattern baldness does have a scarring component. (Someone more knowledgable will have to answer that. Bryan, Michael, do you guys know?)

 

[wookster]

Hair follicle miniaturization is associated with inflammation at the follicular level, it seems. Certain types of immunosuppressive drugs don't block DHT, but they somehow cause hair regrowth.


An interesting theory:

http://www.morphollica.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1603

I am starting to believe in the theory that baldness is the outcome of an inflammtory reaction that occurs at the hair follicles or at the surrounding celles of the follicles. As a pharmacist, I know that one of the ONLY reactions in the body that changes slowly but IRREVERSIBLY
the functioning of cells is inflammation. Just like a continous inflammation of the joints, COPD, scarring etc... Once a cell has lost its function it changes into a fibroblast - a scar cell and will remain unfunctional forever. I think this is the reason why DHT inhibitors won't work for everyone. Let's face it, if male pattern hairloss was purely a consequence of DHT, drugs like propecia and avodart would help every single man with impressive success. So the theory of an iflammation at the follicles would explain it. If a hair follicle changed and lost its funcionality, nothing will revive it. It also explains well the fact that the more you wait till you start with treatment the less effect you will get from it, as the follicles/surrounding tissues changed irreversably. Blocking DHT may be important because DHT probabely has a role in this inflammation. Only if the inflmmation isn't severe (or there are hairs that only started with the reaction) will these drugs have the chance to actually regrow.

 

[Guest]

Excactly.. its calles cell aptopsosis!!

 

[Old Baldy]

Fight and Wookie: You guys might like reading the article linked below. It provides info. on hair follicle cycling, etc. (It's a pretty good read IMHO.)

http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/81/1/449

 

[Guest]

Interesting theory this fluid pressure thing.

Whenever I have sex, I notice my head starts to itch. I always was thinking this was caused by increase of DHT.

I notice after sex, the pressure i n my head is slightly higher! No BS. This is real!

Could it be that the fluid pressure is preventing the circulation to take away these androgens, which then start to damage hair follicles? Also because the circulation is bad less Nitric oxide, less healthy hair more hair loss?

However I used rogaine in the past. This really made my face swell. It really made a lot of hair regrow and my hair thicker. So if this minoxidil was giving me facial swelling, it probably increased fluid pressure, but still my hair was growing very well. Or is this not the same pressure the theory is about?

 

[michael barry]

Music, if minoxidil made your face swell, it was no doubt because it SHIFTED fluid pressure from your scalp to your face. Minoxidil sulfate, as well as the alchohol carrier vehicle (and probably propylene glycol in it too) are diurectics. Diruetics shift fluid volume away from themselves. They "push" water away.

The after-sex headache is something all men face after orgasm for a few seconds/minutes. A chemical releases in your head for that "druggy" feeling.................it takes a bit for you to recover. Actually that chemical that releases can help you go to sleep if you just roll over and shut your eyes. Its kind of a "springboard" sleeping pill if you use it. If you, however, get up and go make a sandwich and watch the late show.......its effects wear off. We dont think about this, but sex can be a bit dehydrating as an activity anyway. Wake up with a headache? Lack of water in your brain perhaps. Vodka is a great deyhyrator, and thus vodka hangovers are really painful.

Back to minoxidil, if you use alot of it, your hands will swell and possibly your feet. These are observed side-effects of it. Its a fluid-volume shifter. Proanthocyanidins do this even more (almost painfully) if you use too much. This doesn't mean Stephen's theory is right, however. But it is an interesting coincidence........like cyclosporin shifting fluid volume in rodents.

 

[wookster]

Back to minoxidil, if you use alot of it, your hands will swell and possibly your feet. These are observed side-effects of it. Its a fluid-volume shifter. Proanthocyanidins do this even more (almost painfully) if you use too much. This doesn't mean Stephen's theory is right, however. But it is an interesting coincidence........like cyclosporin shifting fluid volume in rodents.

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

http://oneearedduck.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... mumab.html

Marketers especially like emphatic sounding letters like X, Z, C and D. They sound high-tech and easy to remember. These names seem to imply results, but they can’t go too far. The FDA won’t approve names that promise a cure. For example, the hair re-growth product “Re-Gainâ€￾ had to be changed to the less suggestive “Rogaineâ€￾. (Strangely enough, Rogaine's active ingredient, minoxidil, was first identified in rat urine.)

There appears to be a "fluid mechanics" aspect to male pattern baldness... :hairy:

 

[Bryan]

Music, if minoxidil made your face swell, it was no doubt because it SHIFTED fluid pressure from your scalp to your face.

Does anybody know of any evidence that minoxidil shifts fluid away from the scalp?

Bryan

 

[stax]

If thats the case with minoxidil "Micheal Barry", then would would be the cure for a minoxidil puffy face?

 

[michael barry]

Stax,

My friend, minoxidil would supercharge your beard hair, and your eybrow hair, and your nose hair. Trust me on this...................dont spray your face with minoxidil.


Bryan,

" chest pain, a rapid heartbeat, faintness or dizziness; sudden, unexplained weight gain; swollen hands or feet scalp irritation that continues or worsens."

I got that from http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000Y ... &n=3760901.

I typed rogaine and swollen hands in the google box and got a bunch of hits off that. I experienced the swollen hands personally back when I first tried it (and went silly with it, you know, the more the better young man's mentaility). Proanthocyandins are worse for this though.......first few nights I tried that I literally woke up in pain. It felt as if my hands were asleep. Proanthocyanidins give you a sticky feeling on your head as if you spilled apple juice up there and it dried and drew up. I can see why it is used for edema patients (that doesnt' of course, mean Stephen's idea is proven by that).


BY the way,.......................ICX is saying they are planning in-house cloning in 2008 if the British ministry of health doesn't stop them, etc. They must think they have something. Its an exciting time in this stuff.

 

[wookster]

Insulin resistance and water retention appear to complement each other. Eating too many refined carbs appears to be ...not good. :freaked:

http://www.drmirkin.com/men/8656.html

MALE-PATTERN BALDNESS

Gabe Mirkin, M.D.

Several years ago I reported that the present treatment for male-pattern baldness is almost worthless and that male-pattern baldness may be caused by insulin resistance, which means that eating sugar and flour contribute to hair loss. The prevailing explanation, that baldness is caused a male hormone called dihydrotestosterone, does not tell us what men do to lose their hair at a young age.


A study in Lancet showed that male pattern baldness may be caused by insulin resistance. When you eat, your blood sugar level rises. To keep blood sugar levels from rising too high, your pancreas releases insulin which drives sugar from the blood into your cells. Some people can't respond to insulin so their blood sugar levels rise too high and then they produce way too much insulin that may cause both men and women to lose hair.

Men who are at high risk for male-pattern baldness store fat primarily in their bellies, rather than their hips; have high blood triglyceride levels, have low blood levels of the good HDL cholesterol that prevents heart attacks, have a family history of diabetes , and are at high risk for suffering a heart attack and eventually developing diabetes. They can help to prevent diabetes, heart attacks and possibly male pattern baldness by eating lots of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, beans, seeds, and nuts; and by avoiding foods made with flour, white rice, milled corn and anything that has sugar added.

 

[michael barry]

Wookie,

My fellow insomniac, please post that on hairloss-reversible.com and see what Tom thinks of that. Its right up his alley. He's one of the nice-guys in the hairgame. I post there as JPJ (I used to go by Michael Barry over there, but got in an ugly spat with a couple of HairClubforMen salesguys, and got sick of them mocking every single post I made over there).

Baldness in men, my own emerging opinion anyway, is an androgen-initiated autoimmune disorder that can be aggravated to worsen more quickly by other things. For instance.................high insulin gets the body to make more testosterone, more T in the blood/tissues sees more DHT made also. Diabetics often have inflammed reddish, clammy skin. All of this is bad for hair. If someone's hair is genetically predetermined to be sensitive to androgens, a bad diet like that Doctor describes should accelerate the male pattern baldness process a somewhat. I think the traditional Japanese diet of brown rice, veggies, lotsa soy, green teas, white teas, lotsa fish protected many of them from baldness for a couple of extra decades in the past. Now many are balding in their thirties over there. The cant' have evolved baldness genes in the span of 3-4 generations, so I assume that the new diet has "sped things up" in a bad way over there.

I still think DHT, with 3 to 4 times the affinity for an androgen receptor, is the main culprit in male pattern baldness and is what "gets it started". Perhaps, if we could put topical Revivogen on boys heads who are 11-13 years of age, we could reduce their tendency to bald in later years? Ive seen some theorize that its ELEVATED androgens in puberty in scalp hair that gets hair to be more sensitive to androgens in later years. I wish someone would try this in stumptailed macaque's and see if they balded more slowly or less often than controls if the right sterols and fatty acids were on their heads throughout their puberties. As you can tell, I'd love to eliminate baldness from mankind. This is the one physical manifestation that I think really saddens and depresses people. You couldnt piss me off with a cattle prod if I woke up with this guys http://www.kidzworld.com/img/upload/art ... en-185.jpg hair.

 

[wookster]

I think the traditional Japanese diet of brown rice, veggies, lotsa soy, ...

I am trying a "self experiment" and assuming that the Foote Edema Hypothesis is correct, for now. Since intake of refined carbs, etc. causes insulin resistance and water retention in the dermal layers of my hide, I am adopting a low carb approach[still with healthy vegetables] and also researching things like the Paleolithic diet of our hunter-gatherer ancestors.

Soy and other phyto-estrogens like "saw-p" does not fit into the hair regrowth equation, due to the risks involved.

Here are some very bad aspects of soy in the diet:

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

Introduction: Confused About Soy?
High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.
Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic disorders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.
Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.
Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.
Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body's requirement for B12.
Soy foods increase the body's requirement for vitamin D.
Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein.
Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.
Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and additional amounts are added to many soy foods.
Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys.

Soy is bad for the brain:

http://www.nspforum.com/faq/bbs.cgi?read=747

The Trouble With Tofu: Soy and the Brain
John D. MacArthur

"Tofu Shrinks Brain!" Not a science fiction scenario, this sobering soybean revelation is for real. But how did the "poster bean" of the '90s go wrong? Apparently, in many ways — none of which bode well for the brain.

In a major ongoing study involving 3,734 elderly Japanese-American men, those who ate the most tofu during midlife had up to 2.4 times the risk of later developing Alzheimer's disease. As part of the three-decade long Honolulu-Asia Aging Study, 27 foods and drinks were correlated with participants' health. Men who consumed tofu at least twice weekly had more cognitive impairment, compared with those who rarely or never ate the soybean curd. [1,2]

"The test results were about equivalent to what they would have been if they were five years older," said lead researcher Dr. Lon R. White from the Hawaii Center for Health Research. For the guys who ate no tofu, however, they tested as though they were five years younger.

What's more, higher midlife tofu consumption was also associated with low brain weight. Brain atrophy was assessed in 574 men using MRI results and in 290 men using autopsy information. Shrinkage occurs naturally with age, but for the men who had consumed more tofu, White said "their brains seemed to be showing an exaggeration of the usual patterns we see in aging."

Phytoestrogens — Soy Self Defense
Tofu and other soybean foods contain isoflavones, three-ringed molecules bearing a structural resemblance to mammalian steroidal hormones. White and his fellow researchers speculate that soy's estrogen-like compounds (phytoestrogens) might compete with the body's natural estrogens for estrogen receptors in brain cells.

Plants have evolved many different strategies to protect themselves from predators. Some have thorns or spines, while others smell bad, taste bad, or poison animals that eat them. Some plants took a different route, using birth control as a way to counter the critters who were wont to munch.

Plants such as soy are making oral contraceptives to defend themselves, says Claude Hughes, Ph.D., a neuroendocrinologist at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center. They evolved compounds that mimic natural estrogen. These phytoestrogens can interfere with the mammalian hormones involved in reproduction and growth — a strategy to reduce the number and size of predators.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

" chest pain, a rapid heartbeat, faintness or dizziness; sudden, unexplained weight gain; swollen hands or feet scalp irritation that continues or worsens."

I got that from http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000Y ... &n=3760901.

Michael, I'm assuming you understand that that doesn't answer my question. I'm still wondering if anybody knows of any evidence that minoxidil shifts fluid away from the scalp. That's an assumption made by Stephen Foote, of course, in an attempt to explain minoxidil's effect on hair, based on his own theory.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

By the way when I used minoxidil, I also got thicker eyebrows

So by Stephens theory it means that minoxidil is shifting the fluid away from the scalp to the face. Which then drops the pressure in the scalp, which makes hair regrow?

If the fluid is going from my scalp to my face, how is the fact that my eyebrows getting thicker explained in Stephens theory then? Because the fluid is increasing in my face, which would then make hair on my face more difficult to grow, but my eyebrows got thicker. I don't remember if my beard got better.

What is in Stephens theory the cure for hairloss. Getting the fluid away from the scalp. So better lymph drainage, vasodilation?

 

[michael barry]

Bryan,
I found this link on minoxidil sides http://www.bcrenalagency.ca/NR/rdonlyre ... LATORS.pdf
It describes swelling of arms and legs and bloating. Nuthin' facial though.

minoxidil and facial swelling in google got me this http://www.unitedpharmacies.com/Headway ... _p_12.html


I got this "Infrequent adverse reactions including allergic reactions (sensitivity, hives, generalized erythema and facial swelling); dizziness; tingling sensation; headache; weakness; neuritis; edema; eye irritation; altered taste; ear infection (otitis externa); and visual disturbances have been reported. Rarely reported adverse reactions included alopecia, hair abnormalities, chest pain, blood pressure changes, pulse changes, hepatitis, and kidney stones."
from here http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b2.pharmace ... raphs-%20R)/ROGAINE.html


Byran , there were quite a few google responses for minoxidil and facial swelling as far as online pharmacies selling the stuff listing it as one of the many side effects in some, but no study confirmation. These pharmacies might just be throwing every concievable side effect up against the wall to protect themselves from lawsuits though.........my face never swelled up on the stuff, but my hands sure as hell did. They were numb, tingly, and painful. It caused my scalp to peel pretty badly too all those years ago. using minoxidil with copper peptides helped this out tremendously however. Personally, I think NANO in prox could pretty much take the place of minoxidil, but it IS high

 

[wookster]

:freaked: :x :freaked:

http://www.path.sunysb.edu/coursemat/hbp310inflam.htm

There are two types of edema:


Exudate: an exudate consists of protein-rich fluid. It is the type of edema seen in inflammation, since the gaps in the endothelial lining of the blood vessels are large enough to allow the passage of proteins as well as water. If the gaps are quite big, the large plasma protein fibrinogen will pass into the tissues. Fibrinogen is the major component of blood clots. It may form clots within the tissues, leading to what is termed a fibrinous exudate. Exudates that are rich in bacteria, leukocytes, and debris are called purulent exudates (more popularly known as pus).

Transudate: Transudates are collections of fluid in the tissues that contain relatively little protein. They form when the normal hydrostatic and osmotic forces that control the balance of water between blood and tissues are out of whack, but the endothelium is normal. Since the endothelium is intact, only small molecules such as water and salts can cross the vessel wall; larger protein molecules stay within the blood plasma. A transudate is not the type of edema that forms during inflammation.