Gun rights

[HughJass]

Plus guns are pretty cool. I mean it is fun as hell going to a shooting range and practicing your shot.

^^^^^ the real reason why most pro gun folk love the 2nd amendment

 

[goata007]

Plus guns are pretty cool. I mean it is fun as hell going to a shooting range and practicing your shot.

^^^^^ the real reason why most pro gun folk love the 2nd amendment

There is an easy solution for this...create shooting ranges in every city, where they also keep all sorts of guns. You go there, get your kicks. This way society doesn't gets it hands on the guns to begin with.

In reality, it is impossible to get people to give up their guns, now that they have them.

 

[goata007]

Let's even take it a step further: is there anybody here who thinks that not only should we not have fought the Soviets in Afghanistan by supplying weapons to the mujahideen (their use of the Stinger missiles we supplied essentially ended the Soviet incursion), we should actually have assisted the Soviets, instead?

It wasn't just US that wanted to fight Soviets. China also had troubled relation with USSR, Saudis didn't want their brethren's country to be taken over by crusaders, and Pakistan knew that if USSR took over then it could be next - as India (at that time) was a good ally of USSR.

 

[badasshairday III]

Let's even take it a step further: is there anybody here who thinks that not only should we not have fought the Soviets in Afghanistan by supplying weapons to the mujahideen (their use of the Stinger missiles we supplied essentially ended the Soviet incursion), we should actually have assisted the Soviets, instead?

It wasn't just US that wanted to fight Soviets. China also had troubled relation with USSR, Saudis didn't want their brethren's country to be taken over by crusaders, and Pakistan knew that if USSR took over then it could be next - as India (at that time) was a good ally of USSR.

Brian, the saying goes, "it is easy to play monday morning quarterback." Who would have known that the Taliban would have become a threat at that time? Back then tensions were high between the US and USSR. But you know what, you are right. We probably should have assisted the Soviets, they would of kept that country clean. Also since they were in the mode of taking over "stans" like Kazakhistan and Afghanistan, they could have also gone for PakiSTAN. This also would have been good because we know that Pakistan harbors a sh*t ton of terrorists also. India deals with terrorist action, unfortunately quite often, due to cross border terrorists and terrorists cells in its own country supported by the Pakistani government (of course they try to keep this on the down-low).

 

[powersam]

Brian, the saying goes, "it is easy to play monday morning quarterback." Who would have known that the Taliban would have become a threat at that time? Back then tensions were high between the US and USSR. But you know what, you are right. We probably should have assisted the Soviets, they would of kept that country clean. Also since they were in the mode of taking over "stans" like Kazakhistan and Afghanistan, they could have also gone for PakiSTAN. This also would have been good because we know that Pakistan harbors a sh*t ton of terrorists also. India deals with terrorist action, unfortunately quite often, due to cross border terrorists and terrorists cells in its own country supported by the Pakistani government (of course they try to keep this on the down-low).

I don't think Bryan was actually suggesting that should have been the course of action taken.

 

[Bryan]

the stinger missile debacle was more a political controversy than it was a deciding factor in the defeat of the soviets

Wow....this is the first time I've ever heard somebody make such a claim. It would be fascinating to ask the (former) Soviets if they think Stinger misslies were more a "political controversy" than anything else!

 

[Bryan]

Brian, the saying goes, "it is easy to play monday morning quarterback."

Do you ever wonder, like I do, if the game of soccer has leant itself to the formation of similar common expressions like "to play Monday morning quarterback"? We also have other expressions like that; for example, when somebody in your office screws something up royally, the others might say "Wow...he really dropped the ball on that one!", or if you're frustated and have no options left when doing some project, you might say "Oh well...time to drop back and punt!"

Considering how relatively simple the game of soccer is compared to football, are there _any_ soccer expressions like that at all which have worked their way into the common language?

Who would have known that the Taliban would have become a threat at that time? Back then tensions were high between the US and USSR. But you know what, you are right. We probably should have assisted the Soviets, they would of kept that country clean. Also since they were in the mode of taking over "stans" like Kazakhistan and Afghanistan, they could have also gone for PakiSTAN. This also would have been good because we know that Pakistan harbors a sh*t ton of terrorists also.

"Hindsight is always 20/20", as they say, but it sure seems that things could be very VERY different today if we had acted on the simple intuition back in 1980 that a few years later, the shoe could be on the other foot. In fact, I distinctly remember reading hints about that (that the mujahideen might eventually turn on us), even back in those days. At the very least, even if we didn't actually assist the Soviets, simply letting their incursion progress without our own interference would probably have changed the long-term outlook for world terrorism considerably.

 

[HughJass]

the stinger missile debacle was more a political controversy than it was a deciding factor in the defeat of the soviets

Wow....this is the first time I've ever heard somebody make such a claim. It would be fascinating to ask the (former) Soviets if they think Stinger misslies were more a "political controversy" than anything else!

While I'm sure they didn't appreciate them, claiming that it was what 'won the war' is a stretch to say the least. I'm sure many Americans who have watched 'charlie wilson's war' would like to believe otherwise though.

 

[Old Baldy]

Aussie: I heard a military man on one of the documentary channels a while back say our Stinger missile launchers kept the Soviets from using attack helicopters and that went a long way towards preventing a Soviet victory.

Bryan: Do I think we should have helped the Soviets? Yes, but back then - no.

 

[s.a.f]

It did'nt prevent the soviets using attack helicopters it simply downed a few. The reason that military campaign failed is because it became too dragged out costing money and lives and lost the support of the nation.
Unfortunatley we did'nt the lesson learn from them.

 

[Bryan]

Aussie: I heard a military man on one of the documentary channels a while back say our Stinger missile launchers kept the Soviets from using attack helicopters and that went a long way towards preventing a Soviet victory.

Yes. I believe the Wiki article on the Stinger missile states that 333 (!) of the deadly Soviet "Crocodile" helicopter gunships were shot down after the mujahideen got their hands on them!

Another major publication I was reading several years ago (may have been the Washington Post or the New York Times) said that the Soviets didn't realize it at the time, but the war was essentially over the moment that Ronald Reagan signed the executive order authorizing getting those Stinger missiles into the hands of the mujahideen. Those things were THAT much of a turning point in the war.

 

[powersam]

Bryan: Do I think we should have helped the Soviets? Yes, but back then - no.

I think that is taking things way to far.

 

[Bryan]

So what would YOU have done, Sam, knowing then what you know now? Would you have gone with a total "hands-off" policy?

 

[powersam]

So what would YOU have done, Sam, knowing then what you know now? Would you have gone with a total "hands-off" policy?

It's a really difficult question to be honest. Hands off means the Soviets continue unchecked, and they were doing nasty things in Afghanistan.

 

[Bryan]

It's a really difficult question to be honest. Hands off means the Soviets continue unchecked, and they were doing nasty things in Afghanistan.

I agree with you on that. I've read stories of INCREDIBLE brutality on the part of the Soviets, like how they would (allegedly) take young Afghan girls high up in a helicopter, then rape them and toss them out to their deaths. But are those stories really true??

 

[HughJass]

Aussie: I heard a military man on one of the documentary channels a while back say our Stinger missile launchers kept the Soviets from using attack helicopters and that went a long way towards preventing a Soviet victory.

Yes. I believe the Wiki article on the Stinger missile states that 333 (!) of the deadly Soviet "Crocodile" helicopter gunships were shot down after the mujahideen got their hands on them!

there are conflicting accounts of how many stingers were actually supplied....I doubt anyone will actually find an accurate record seeing as the whole thing was covert

there is a lot of propaganda on either side, the Russians claim they lost about 90 fixed wing & rotary wing combined, the Americans claim it was much higher. Victors always exaggerate their wins and losers always downplay their defeats.

And as Iraq and afghanistan has shown it's not that hard to down helicopters with small arms fire and RPG's, it's possible the soviets lost many this way as well

Another major publication I was reading several years ago (may have been the Washington Post or the New York Times) said that the Soviets didn't realize it at the time, but the war was essentially over the moment that Ronald Reagan signed the executive order authorizing getting those Stinger missiles into the hands of the mujahideen. Those things were THAT much of a turning point in the war.

I think that's little more than a good example of a propaganda piece being carried by an American paper. I think the whole 'stingers won the war' just got repeated over and over until it became dogma

Like s.a.f said, the reasons for the soviet withdrawel were political, not due to defeat. Not that they were winning either...

 

[Old Baldy]

Yes, I don't know about any numbers and it probably will never be known for sure.

Bryan's 333 downed aircraft seems real high but I've never read one way or the other. (I do remember when Reagan allowed Stinger launchers to be sent to Afghanistan. It was a pretty big deal at that time IIRC. You know, we had to pay alot of money to the Afghani's to get them back IIRC!!?? :freaked: )

 

[goata007]

Yes, I don't know about any numbers and it probably will never be known for sure.

Bryan's 333 downed aircraft seems real high but I've never read one way or the other.

Most of the newspapers say that AT LEAST 1,000 (upto 2,000) stingers were sent to afghanistan. So it does sound quite probable that the mujahideen took down 300-400 aircrafts. You have to remember that we are talking about 80s, so the aircraft weren't really sophisticated back then.

 

[Old Baldy]

WOW!! Ok, thanks for the info.

 

[CCS]

He should have given them 50 missles per month until the russians gave up. Maybe 100 the first month. 1000-2000 was a dumb move. And if the stinger company wanted to make a lot, we should have the kept the excess here.