Gun rights

[s.a.f]

Err CCS you do realise that covert delivery of these missiles was'nt exactly easy thats why they gave them huge amounts because the supply of further missiles was not gauranteed.

 

[s.a.f]

Yes. I believe the Wiki article on the Stinger missile states that 333 (!) of the deadly Soviet "Crocodile" helicopter gunships were shot down after the mujahideen got their hands on them.

I think you mean the Hind gunships, (as featured in Rambo 3) the crocodile aircraft is the russians equivilent of the A10 warthog and was not used in such large numbers.

 

[Bryan]

Brian, the saying goes, "it is easy to play monday morning quarterback."

Do you ever wonder, like I do, if the game of soccer has leant itself to the formation of similar common expressions like "to play Monday morning quarterback"? We also have other expressions like that; for example, when somebody in your office screws something up royally, the others might say "Wow...he really dropped the ball on that one!", or if you're frustated and have no options left when doing some project, you might say "Oh well...time to drop back and punt!"

And I just remembered yet another expression borrowed from the game of football! I just watched that video of the Fox News commentators discussing John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate, and one of the commentators referred to it as a "Hail Mary" decision, meaning that it was similar to a quarterback throwing the ball all the way downfield, and hoping (PRAYING) that somebody catches it!

So these are four examples of the richness of (American) football, which has enough diversity and complexity in it to cause many of its expressions to be incorporated into the everyday language. I ask again: has this happened with the game of soccer?

 

[s.a.f]

It has in the UK. And probably most of Europe and south America there are plenty of football related expressions.

 

[Bryan]

Can you give me some examples of such expressions, and the way they might be used in a sentence?

 

[ali777]

Bryan please do not kick off (1) another argument about football vs soccer again. I thought this subject was kicked into touch (2) some time ago. It looks like you got the ball rolling again (3)...

Bryan this is not a criticism of you in any way, but I don't like using football (soccer) lingo in everyday talk. I find it to be extremely cheesy. The Brits aren't so bad, but I hate the football references in my other two languages. Expressions like "don't fall offside", "committing a foul", "I scored a goal last night", etc are very common and I just don't like them. Especially now that global football is so popular, those expressions are like the new bling.

PS: Is "to get the ball rolling" a soccer expression?
PS2: Kicking into touch is more of a rugby expression, but it is used in football as well. An alternative is "to kick out".

 

[Bryan]

Bryan please do not kick off (1) another argument about football vs soccer again. I thought this subject was kicked into touch (2) some time ago. It looks like you got the ball rolling again (3)...

What does "kick into touch" mean?

Expressions like "don't fall offside", "committing a foul", "I scored a goal last night", etc are very common and I just don't like them.

Those expressions seem a lot less specific to soccer than the football expressions I cited earlier are specific to football.

PS: Is "to get the ball rolling" a soccer expression?

Doesn't sound very specific to soccer to me.

PS2: Kicking into touch is more of a rugby expression, but it is used in football as well. An alternative is "to kick out".

What does it specifically mean?

 

[ali777]

What does "kick into touch" mean?

kick out of bounds??

Basically it means the action has stopped/paused.

Those expressions seem a lot less specific to soccer than the football expressions I cited earlier are specific to football.

You are contradicting yourself. Monday morning quarterback has nothing to do with the sport itself, it's purely a cultural reference. You were trying to show us how rich the sport is, yet your examples of expressions aren't related to the sport itself.

I kept it simple and I just gave you a few examples of the sporting expressions used everyday.

PS: Is "to get the ball rolling" a soccer expression?

Doesn't sound very specific to soccer to me.

It probably originates from football...

 

[Bryan]

What does "kick into touch" mean?

kick out of bounds??

Basically it means the action has stopped/paused.

Okay, I gotcha. But the clock itself never really stops, does it? That's one of the things I find really weird about soccer.

Those expressions seem a lot less specific to soccer than the football expressions I cited earlier are specific to football.

You are contradicting yourself. Monday morning quarterback has nothing to do with the sport itself, it's purely a cultural reference. You were trying to show us how rich the sport is, yet your examples of expressions aren't related to the sport itself.

HUH?? You _do_ understand what that means, don't you? It's clearly and obviously derived from the grand American tradition of replaying the big game from the previous day (Sunday afternoon football) on the following Monday morning, around the water-cooler at the office. Hence, the term "Monday morning quarterbacking"!

I kept it simple and I just gave you a few examples of the sporting expressions used everyday.

Can you give a few others (I do have a reason for asking)?

 

[optimus prime]

Maybe the word 'Goal'. I'm not sure where it originates from though. Maybe the word existed and was then used in sport or if it was created for sport and then used for other things. Also, I don't know what sport used it first.

 

[ali777]

So these are four examples of the richness of (American) football, which has enough diversity and complexity in it to cause many of its expressions to be incorporated into the everyday language. I ask again: has this happened with the game of soccer?

HUH?? You _do_ understand what that means, don't you? It's clearly and obviously derived from the grand American tradition of replaying the big game from the previous day (Sunday afternoon football) on the following Monday morning, around the water-cooler at the office. Hence, the term "Monday morning quarterbacking"!

I understand what “monday morning quarterback†means, but you also said there are lots of expressions that prove the richness of football. I just don't think “monday morning quarterback†is one of them. You wouldn't hear a commentator go like “look at Jo pull the best ever monday morning quarterback†during a game. What I mean is that, this expression is not related to the game play itself, but it's a cultural reference to the game, therefore, it has nothing to do with the richness of the game play.

The British equivalent of “monday morning quarterback†would be “an armchair managerâ€. It's not very widely used expression in the mainstream media, but I can imagine the lads magazines and the tabloids using it.

If you are looking for cultural references, the most popular British expression related to soccer would be “they think it's all over...... now it isâ€. It comes from the 1966 football world cup final (soccer world series play off final game... sorry couldn't help it), and it's used to refer to premature celebration fallowed by signalling the end of an ongoing process.

Another expression that comes to my mind is “glory hunterâ€. It doesn't originate from soccer, but it's used to describe the likes of Manchester United and Chelsea supporters and is currently popularised by soccer, so it is a cultural reference to the beautiful game. Eg, all the kids that went to the polls to vote for Obama could be described as glory hunters, they just wanted to be part of the bigger celebration.

My favourite is “watching football scores on teletextâ€. It's similar to “watching paint dryâ€, but adapted into footballing culture and first used by (I believe) Gordon Strachan. Eg, I could say “the movie was so dull, I'd rather be watching football scores on teletextâ€.

Is that enough, or you want me to unleash the Chelsea firm on you?

Tomorrow I'm gonna sit on my armchair, “eat all the piesâ€, and become the saturday afternoon manager.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Ate_All_the_Pies%3F

PS: this is an expression used to bully overweight people.. not nice :shakehead:

But the clock itself never really stops, does it? That's one of the things I find really weird about soccer.

Stopping the clock is an American thing. You won't understand us, and we won't understand you. It's referee's responsibility to ensure the game flows with minimal stoppage. I believe statistically the ball is in action for about 60-70 mins during a game of top flight soccer. In lower leagues it's probably less.

 

[s.a.f]

Could this thread get any further off topic? :whistle:

 

[Bryan]

I understand what “monday morning quarterbackâ€￾ means, but you also said there are lots of expressions that prove the richness of football. I just don't think “monday morning quarterbackâ€￾ is one of them. You wouldn't hear a commentator go like “look at Jo pull the best ever monday morning quarterbackâ€￾ during a game. What I mean is that, this expression is not related to the game play itself, but it's a cultural reference to the game, therefore, it has nothing to do with the richness of the game play.

I didn't understand before exactly what it is you meant, but now I think I do. Since "Monday morning quarterback" doesn't refer SPECIFICALLY to the mechanisms involved in playing football (even though it originally came from football enthusiasts who insisted on analyzing the game well into the next day), you don't want to include that in a list of "football references". Is that correct? Okay, I will accept that. But do you agree that the other three things I mentioned _do_ directly refer to the mechanisms of the game ("He dropped the ball on that one", "Time to drop back and punt", "He threw a Hail Mary")?

Is that enough, or you want me to unleash the Chelsea firm on you?

I think that's enough. Based on the examples you've given me, it appears that there are fewer true references to soccer game-play. The ones you've cited are all similar to "Monday morning quarterback", which I've now agreed is not a particularly good one.

The point I'm making here, of course, is that (American) football is a more complex game than soccer, with more varied game-play. It's not surprising to me that people would be more likely to borrow terminology from football and apply it to situations in their daily lives.

But the clock itself never really stops, does it? That's one of the things I find really weird about soccer.

Stopping the clock is an American thing. You won't understand us, and we won't understand you. It's referee's responsibility to ensure the game flows with minimal stoppage. I believe statistically the ball is in action for about 60-70 mins during a game of top flight soccer. In lower leagues it's probably less.

I think you're missing the point. When an event occurs that forces a stoppage to occur (like, say, an injury on the field), you WANT the clock to stop, you don't want some judge or referee simply to "guesstimate" how much time was wasted, and then add that to the clock near the end of the game. For God's sake, why can't soccer enthusiasts realize that all you have to do is STOP THE FREAKING CLOCK until normal play resumes?? Why is that such a difficult concept to understand?

 

[ali777]

Could this thread get any further off topic? :whistle:

Yeah, Bryan has bent the subject like Beckham :whistle:

"He dropped the ball on that one", "Time to drop back and punt", "He threw a Hail Mary"

The point I'm making here, of course, is that (American) football is a more complex game than soccer, with more varied game-play. It's not surprising that people would be more likely to borrow terminology from football and apply it to situations in their daily lives.

This is subjective.

I gave you a few examples like kick off, kick into touch...

I think you're missing the point. When an event occurs that forces a stoppage to occur (like, say, an injury on the field), you WANT the clock to stop, you don't want some judge or referee simply to "guesstimate" how much time was wasted, and then add that to the clock near the end of the game. For God's sake, why can't soccer enthusiasts realize that all you have to do is STOP THE FREAKING CLOCK until normal play resumes?? Why is that such a difficult concept to understand?

OK, I have to admit the beautiful game is increasingly becoming more and more mechanical and winning at all costs is the priority most of the time. So, in a way there is an industrialisation in soccer. 10 years ago, you wouldn't hear a manager talk about the statistics or whatever. In soccer, we have a few "special" players like your quarterbacks that may not be statistically strong but they are the ones that are capable of producing a moment of magic that will change the whole game. You don't get many of those these days.

Introducing a clock would further take away from the beauty of the game and make it even more mechanical. The difference between American football and soccer is that soccer has a bigger human element in it, and you can't take that away from the game. I admit your football is tactical, but most of the players are there to make up the numbers in the form of a meat wall, we don't have that in soccer. In soccer we have 11 quarterbacks, they are all involved in the game and there are no static tactical elements in soccer. That's why you have a difficulty understanding soccer and the role of the referee.

On monday morning you might talk about 1 guy, but we talk about 11 guys. We talk about some magical individual skill that requires a lot of foot-eye coordination and creativity, whereas you talk about tactics rather than the individual skills... Our game relies on individual skill and team tactics at the same time, whereas yours is more tactical based.

If I was having this conversation 10 years ago, I would support a stop clock, video replays, etc, but I don't support them anymore. I think the beauty of the game is in the individual skills and the little human errors. Referees and refereeing errors are part of that human element.

I used to play basketball everyday for a few years, I have nothing against American sports. I somehow grew out of it, I might watch the odd NBA game but that's about it. Soccer is more of a participant sport, you could play it anytime and everywhere, all you need is "jumpers for goal posts" and a ball.

 

[CCS]

SAF wrote:

Could you get any further off topic?

I think they are talking about football. You know: shotgun ... set ... hike!

Still on topic.

 

[optimus prime]

The point I'm making here, of course, is that (American) football is a more complex game than soccer, with more varied game-play. It's not surprising to me that people would be more likely to borrow terminology from football and apply it to situations in their daily lives.

Oh dear Bryan, you just sound desperate. Maybe you are insecure because your sport ‘football’, the sport that use an 'oval ball' and spends 95% or more being used by the hand, isn’t as popular as our Football.

I won’t argue with you there though Bryan, ‘American Football’ is a probably more complex than Football (Even though people using ‘football terms’ hardly proves a sport is complex). However, I would rather watch a more skilful sport then a more complex sport any day of the week and it is proven that using your feet requires more skill and coordination than using your hands.

I would say Cricket is more complex than American Football though.

Anywho, you should be comparing American Football to Rugby. That sport is your competitor. Football is in a different league to American Football.

I tried to watch a game recently on TV. It was being played at Wembley, Philadelphia vs. New Orleans. So bored. I prefer Baseball...that is the American Sport I will try and get into next.

 

[CCS]

I think that even if taking guns away is a good thing, the resistance that would be met during the transition, and the force that would be needed to overpower that resistance, would be far worse damage caused by guns in the first place.
...

Unless we just shut down amo factories and gun factories. But then only the crooks would have access to the underground factories. At least we would not feel nearly as bad about blowing those factories up. Much more ethical than having a police gun fight with a family that won't let the police take their guns.

I'm much more concerned about the economy and foreign relations than I am about gun issues though.

 

[Bryan]

"He dropped the ball on that one", "Time to drop back and punt", "He threw a Hail Mary"

The point I'm making here, of course, is that (American) football is a more complex game than soccer, with more varied game-play. It's not surprising that people would be more likely to borrow terminology from football and apply it to situations in their daily lives.

This is subjective.

I gave you a few examples like kick off, kick into touch...

"Kick off" is awfully simple and generic, isn't it, compared to the three football expressions I cited?

Not sure about "kick into touch".

Introducing a clock would further take away from the beauty of the game and make it even more mechanical.

How would it do that?

The difference between American football and soccer is that soccer has a bigger human element in it, and you can't take that away from the game.

I don't know what you mean by "bigger human element".

I admit your football is tactical, but most of the players are there to make up the numbers in the form of a meat wall, we don't have that in soccer. In soccer we have 11 quarterbacks, they are all involved in the game and there are no static tactical elements in soccer. That's why you have a difficulty understanding soccer and the role of the referee.

I don't know what you mean by "static tactical element", either.

On monday morning you might talk about 1 guy, but we talk about 11 guys. We talk about some magical individual skill that requires a lot of foot-eye coordination and creativity, whereas you talk about tactics rather than the individual skills... Our game relies on individual skill and team tactics at the same time, whereas yours is more tactical based.

I'm still not really sure about all this talk about "tactics". Not completely sure what you mean in this context.

If I was having this conversation 10 years ago, I would support a stop clock, video replays, etc, but I don't support them anymore.

WHY? Why on earth would anybody choose not to have a stop clock, and simply rely on having some referee "guesstimate" at the end of the game how much additional time to continue playing the game? Why is this such a difficult thing for soccer enthusiasts to understand?

 

[Bryan]

Oh dear Bryan, you just sound desperate. Maybe you are insecure because your sport ‘football’, the sport that use an 'oval ball' and spends 95% or more being used by the hand, isn’t as popular as our Football.

I can assure you that I don't spend any time at all thinking about the popularity of football, compared to soccer.

At this very moment, I'm getting excited by the big Oklahoma State versus Texas Tech game which is going to be starting in a couple of hours. The Texas/Texas Tech game last week was VERY exciting, one of the best and most interesting games I've ever seen, and I can't wait to see how Tech does against Oklahoma State!!

I won’t argue with you there though Bryan, ‘American Football’ is a probably more complex than Football.

Thanks for acknowledging that.

However, I would rather watch a more skilful sport then a more complex sport any day of the week and it is proven that using your feet requires more skill and coordination than using your hands.

Football is a superset of soccer, in that it requires not only skill like soccer, but also raw power. That's the beauty of the game: skill combined with sheer physicality.

I tried to watch a game recently on TV. It was being played at Wembley, Philadelphia vs. New Orleans. So bored.

LOL!! If you were "bored" by football, then you obviously still don't understand the game. Get to work, and find out how it works!

 

[optimus prime]

WHY? Why on earth would anybody choose not to have a stop clock, and simply rely on having some referee "guesstimate" at the end of the game how much additional time to continue playing the game? Why is this such a difficult thing for soccer enthusiasts to understand?

Just so you know, when I refer to Football I mean the sport you call soccer, and when I say American Football, it’s obviously your football.

Ok, Rugby stops the clock. It’s more subtle then NFL. The players don’t get a chance to leave the pitch or have a quick break, they play as if the clock is still going, but the ref stops it every time a foul is committed or the Rugby is out of play or a Try is scored. This works well, I do agree.

This could potentially be implemented into Football, but I don’t think it will because nobody is really that bothered by it. The overall effect of changing the clocking system would be minor. We also like the thrill of the ‘guesstimate’. ‘What amount of time will the referee add on?’
The rules state that the referee adds 30 seconds for each goal scored in that half and adds the time stopped if an injury occurs.

The other thing you have to remember is that when the ball is out of play, the game hasn’t stopped (except if a goal is scored or waiting for an injured player). The players can choose to take a quick throw or quick free kick and not allow the opposition to get into their positions.

If for example, your team are losing 1-0 with 5 minutes remaining, it is hugely essential to change the way you play so the opposition will not have a chance to put the ball into touch. If they do, then you have to rush as fast as you can to take it quick so time is not lost, this adds to the thrill, trust me. If one of your players makes a mistake or has to put the ball into touch, then you will pay the price, the other team will drag out how long they take the free kick or throw in. They will make sure all their players are in position. There is however a time limit, if they exceed the time limit, it is called ‘time wasting’ and they are punished.

Not-stopping the clock is essential to tactics because for example, when watching Chelsea lasts year, one of their tactics was to make sure that the ball gets put back into play as fast as possible. This would not allow the opposition to get organised because they had no time, and it would also tire out the opposition players. To do this though, you have to make sure your players are ultra fit. A lot of lower teams like to use the time when the ball is out of play to get organised and slow the game down and make it so the ball spends less time in play, this benefits them for obvious reasons.

This is also important because some teams have a transfer budget of £1m and others £90m. The team with £1m has to use every possible tactic to help beat the team with a budget of £90m. Stopping the lock would be another benefit to the £90m team.

Overall Summary
Football is a very fast game, I wouldn’t like to see the clock stopped because I believe the game would be slowed down and there is nothing more exciting than watching a team franticly trying to get the ball back into play to utilise the time to their benefit. Also, as a fan of my local team (who are very poor) putting the ball into touch when you have a lead and the game is almost over helps to relieve pressure. Our players usually have to rush back into position because we know the opposition will put the ball back into play very fast.

However, I would agree that if a player is injured or a goal is scored they should officially stop the clock(but not stop the clock for free kicks, throw-ins or corners). However, I don’t think they will change anytime soon because Football is a very successful sport and if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it.