H&w Topical Liposomal Finasteride Vs Oral Finasteride

[hairmonster123]

That study doesn't seem very clear on what its getting at. In addition so many things are given topically, particularly in the head/facial region, wouldn't that cause a massive outrage in the science community if there were serious side effects? I for one have been taking minoxidil for over a year, haven't noticed any changes physically or mentally. Would it even be able to pass the blood-brain barrier? I mean u would need to invest in nano particle formulations or peptides.

 

[hairfertilizer]

The study applied medicated oil to the scalp and determined that it was reaching the brain.

The continuous fatty medium facilitates the migration of oil soluble compounds such as diazepam towards the gland and hair follicle epithelium for absorption. Once absorbed through the skin of the scalp the non polar drug molecules could enter the blood vessels, in particular the emissary veins that drain blood directly into the brain from the extracranial sites of the scalp. There are thirteen pairs of emissary veins that pierce the cranial bones through a series of foramina connecting extracranial sites of the scalp with the seven intracranial sinuses of the brain that anastamose among each other

Minoxidil is not really an issue since it's just a blood vessel dilator (blood pressure medication). The issue is finasteride, and it is known to cross the blood brain barrier.

 

[reyl]

The study applied medicated oil to the scalp and determined that it was reaching the brain.



Minoxidil is not really an issue since it's just a blood vessel dilator (blood pressure medication). The issue is finasteride, and it is known to cross the blood brain barrier.

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/long-term-heart-problems-with-rogaine.70857/ careful with the "just", there was also a study that people who were taking Minoxidil longterm 10-20 years had on average worse hearts than people who did not. I couldn't take the stuff because my heart would flutter like crazy to the point of bad pain and shortness of breath.. which is completely abnormal, as I am active in running, lifting, and recreational sports.

I haven't touched it since. Just remember people, just because you're taking it topically doesn't mean it stays there, it goes into your entire body. Minoxidil is toxic enough to kill cats with a small amount, and I know people are gonna say "well dogs die from eating chocolate" but they have to eat like more than a lb of chocolate for that to happen. I just don't think minoxidil is very well understood(not that finasteride is either, but still).

finasteride on the other hand is actually good for your heart: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/early/2015/01/28/CIRCULATIONAHA.114.012066

 

[hairfertilizer]

True. Especially if you are using dermarollers a larger fraction will systematic.

 

[hairmonster123]

Wow theres literally fear mongering for everything, do u have any studies to back up your claim minoxidil topically leads to significant enough systematic absorption to deteriorate your heart down the years? Theres only one iffy non conclusive study done from 1988 that really didn't conclude whether or not healthy men are affected. A few people just can't accept the fact that some things to the body happen solely because of aging and it just happens to be a coincidence they were taking drugs such as minoxidil. People tend to mix correlation with causation.

 

[hairfertilizer]

We know from studies that minoxidil goes systematic

The percutaneous absorption and excretion of 1% and 5% solutions of minoxidil labeled with carbon 14 were measured in 12 adult male subjects. These subjects were randomly assigned to the 1% and 5% minoxidil testing groups, and all received nine topical applications to a bald area on the scalp, with the radioactive solutions applied on days 1 and 9. Urinary excretion of radioactivity was low, with mean values ranging from 1.6% to 3.9% of applied dose. No radioactivity could be detected in fecal samples. Recovery of radioactivity from the skin surface and from scalp and pillowcase washes was in the range of 41% to 45% of applied dose. No adverse reactions or notable abnormalities were noted in the subjects during the study. Although minoxidil is poorly absorbed through the skin, systemic doses in the range of 2.4 to 5.4 mg/day can be anticipated if application is made to entire scalp.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3977334

 

[reyl]

Wow theres literally fear mongering for everything, do u have any studies to back up your claim minoxidil topically leads to significant enough systematic absorption to deteriorate your heart down the years? Theres only one iffy non conclusive study done from 1988 that really didn't conclude whether or not healthy men are affected. A few people just can't accept the fact that some things to the body happen solely because of aging and it just happens to be a coincidence they were taking drugs such as minoxidil. People tend to mix correlation with causation.

It has nothing to do with aging for me personally, the first negative reaction I had with it I was only 22(on only my FOURTH use) and on the tennis team for my university. I went to get lab tests done and they confirmed it was the minoxidil because it's a vasodilator and can cause things similar to SVT(supraventricular tachycardia) even if you normally don't have it. As for everyone who doesn't have sides on it, they will have caused some damage, however minor it could be, after 10 years or so. It's your right to use it but for all the fear mongering of finasteride, I definitely think minoxidil gets underestimated for what it can cause(and that's strictly because it doesn't affect muh dik).

 

[hairfertilizer]

Welp. Looks like I can worry about minoxidil in addition to finasteride. At least I don't have to take minoxidil orally, and plan to use finasteride topically. So the effects are going to be limited by what gets systematically absorbed. I think going 2% minoxidil might be a good idea in the future.

 

[reyl]

Welp. Looks like I can worry about minoxidil in addition to finasteride. At least I don't have to take minoxidil orally, and plan to use finasteride topically. So the effects are going to be limited by what gets systematically absorbed. I think going 2% minoxidil might be a good idea in the future.

Yeah in all fairness I did use something like 5%. 2% is the least likely to have sides and will give mild growth, in studies it's comparable to using Nizoral 1% ketoconazole (where 5% beats it in that regard).

The only sides from finasteride are potential gyno or loss if libido (extremely rare for it to be prolonged), if the libido loss occurs you can always take stuff to boost it but at least you won't ever have any kind of heart issue from it.

 

[hairfertilizer]

The only sides from finasteride are potential gyno or loss if libido

It's much much worse than that.

Considerable evidence exists from preclinical and clinical studies, which point to significant and serious adverse effects of 5α-RIs, finasteride and dutasteride, on sexual health, vascular health, psychological health and the overall quality of life. Physicians need to be aware of such potential adverse effects and communicate such information to their patients prior to commencing 5α-RIs therapy.

It has recently been shown that patients who had been treated with finasteride have reduced or undetectable levels of neuroactive steroids in their cerebro-spinal fluid and plasma, and exhibited higher levels of precursor steroids [75]. This observation strongly suggests that 5α-RIs have a deleterious effect on the biosynthesis and function of neurosteroids in the central nervous system. Finasteride treatment resulted in decreased levels of 5α-DHT and 3α, 5α-tetrahydroprogesterone (AP) and increased levels of testosterone supporting the hypothesis that deleterious effects of finasteride may be persistent or irreversible. This may explain some of the noted symptoms such as anxiety, depression and suicide in patients who have been treated with finasteride [76].

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4064044/

 

[reyl]

It's much much worse than that.

So I read through most of it and it seemed that was referring mostly to the 5mg dose for people with BPH? How is it possible that it could cause "completely undetectable levels" neurosteroids in the spinal tap within some people if the 1mg dose reduces DHT by 70%? The 30% should still be enough for functioning.

Also, I have read numerous times that since finasteride doesn't inhibit type 1 or type 3 5-alpha reductase, that it won't really affect neurosteroids as much, because type 1 and type 3 are the ones mostly responsible for them. Really don't know how true that is because I'm seeing conflicting reports on all of this.

For that reason I'm amazed when people say they can use Dutasteride without sides because it basically nukes all three 5AR enzyme types.

Back to the topical I think since it still lowers serum DHT and that it goes systemic, it's probably a placebo effect in that people believe it doesn't affect them, and plus the amount absorbed is probably a lot less. My thinking is that you could get the same results just taking a microdose orally, and that doesn't always work for everyone despite what the research says. But that guy on that reddit post had good enough results for me to consider the topical as a maintenance treatment, he stated he had sides on the oral but not the topical.

 

[hairfertilizer]

Finasteride is so potent that even taking 0.01 mg effects DHT levels. (https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...de-microdosing-as-additional-treatment.98373/) My thinking is get a topical formulation down to .01mg (1mg finasteride dissolved in 1.5 bottle of rogaine, apply once daily), so even if 50% goes systematic (0.005mg), you are still relatively safe. The issue that concerns me is that the scalp has blood vessels that drain in/out of the brain, so finasteride might be reaching the brain directly.

 

[jared garnith]

For what it is worth

I use topical spironolactone

I had side effects orally i did not have topical.

I am not saying its same finasteride and spironolactone just sharing my experience with a topical.

How has it been with topical?

 

[CinnamonRoll]

Literally everyone here using finasteride admited decrease of orgasm intensity.

Never happened to me. Didn't happen to my friend who doesn't post on any mental illness hair loss forums.

 

[mustafasoud]

Never happened to me. Didn't happen to my friend who doesn't post on any mental illness hair loss forums.

Is there any theory that you're using 0.25 mg ? Does it have tha same effect as 1 mg ?

 

[CinnamonRoll]

Is there any theory that you're using 0.25 mg ? Does it have tha same effect as 1 mg ?

You are correct that I use 0.25mg. It's slightly less effective according to the studies. I believe it's something like 85-90% as effective.
My hairloss is only moderately aggressive. I lost about 0.7 Norwood over the course of 18 months without the Big 3(still not using minoxidil). Fell back another 0.2 once I started on finasteride, but I used to take it only E4D(in addition to taking only 0.25). It's totally stopped at ED dosing. Only exception being my right temple which it seems to have no impact on. It's faded at the same rate as before I touched anything. I've been using Finasteride for 4 1/2 years now.

 

[infinitepain]

You are correct that I use 0.25mg. It's slightly less effective according to the studies. I believe it's something like 85-90% as effective.
My hairloss is only moderately aggressive. I lost about 0.7 Norwood over the course of 18 months without the Big 3(still not using minoxidil). Fell back another 0.2 once I started on finasteride, but I used to take it only E4D(in addition to taking only 0.25). It's totally stopped at ED dosing. Only exception being my right temple which it seems to have no impact on. It's faded at the same rate as before I touched anything. I've been using Finasteride for 4 1/2 years now.

You are just lucky the finasteride hasn't spread across key tissues for orgasm (yet)

 

[CinnamonRoll]

You are just lucky the finasteride hasn't spread across key tissues for orgasm (yet)

You'd need to explain that biologically. While I'm open to the potential that the presence of more DHT may intensify orgasm, you seem to be implying something very different. It sounds like something along the lines of local tissue saturation and toxicity, which strikes me as very unlikely.

 

[Btg]

You'd need to explain that biologically. While I'm open to the potential that the presence of more DHT may intensify orgasm, you seem to be implying something very different. It sounds like something along the lines of local tissue saturation and toxicity, which strikes me as very unlikely.

He just said something random , finasteride doesnt spread anywhere it just inhibits enzymes . Anyway i believe i get more pleasure from sex without finasteride , but it fluctuates anyway i dont think it is a key factor

 

[infinitepain]

You'd need to explain that biologically. While I'm open to the potential that the presence of more DHT may intensify orgasm, you seem to be implying something very different. It sounds like something along the lines of local tissue saturation and toxicity, which strikes me as very unlikely.

Tissues that don't get exposed to DHT become feminized... can you argue this?