I Am Actually Regrowing My Hair + Hairline Without Min Or finasteride (mechanical Stimulation)
- Thread starter MyThinningConfidence
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Under the model I believe DHT is used as an inflammatory response in relation to chronic scalp tension, this causes fibrosis to build up within the scalp over time and because it's chronic this response never stops and it lead to even more fibrosis which slowly kicks off the miniaturization process as the hair follicles slowly become deprived of nutrient and blood supply as the the fibrosis worsens limiting bloodflow. You should be able to actually physically feel the fibrosis too, if you ever pinch someone's scalp who's completely bald you'll probably notice their scalp is quite thick.
I think the key to actually regrowing lost hair is ultimately bloodflow to the actual follicle, the best way to achieve this in my opinion is the induction of angiogenesis and the reversal of fibrosis. In the case of angiogenesis, the idea is that new blood vessels form to actually supply the follicle. Mechanical stimulation and microneedling appear to achieve this. That's one of quite a few reasons I don't particularly like minoxidil and don't use it. The follicle becomes reliant on minoxidil and you can never stop it without losing your gains, I don't think this is ideal. In the case of my regrowth I'm under the assumption my results are semi-permanent due to the formation of new blood vessels to support the follicle. As long as I continue to stop the inflammatory response from happening my gains should be theoretically permanent unless that inflammatory response proceeds to cause miniaturization via fibrosis.
I personally think DHT is definitely genetic and there is evidence towards that, people with 5AR deficiencies never go bald and risk is usually determined by parents. I think there is 3 things that sets it off, one being people with the gene that uses 5AR as an inflammatory response, secondly chronic scalp tension which the Von Mises model found to fit the Norwood pattern almost perfectly. Thirdly a hormonal imbalance that doesn't usually present itself until later in one's life but can happen beforehand.
It's probably not ideal to block DHT and there appear to be other ways around it but it is likely the easiest and most studied way to prevent hairloss and even partially reverse it. I'm under the assumption that regrowth on finasteride is actually more of an accident creating a hormonal imbalance as Inhibiting DHT synthesis may alter the estrogen to androgen ratio by shifting metabolism of testosterone to estradiol. This would explain why some people only see a slowdown of hairloss and others have major regrowth.
Thank you for answering my question..
In these months of regrowth,did you noticed a single hair that has grown as fresh,pigmented and thick like your original hairs from the roots???(I mean when the hair was first sprouted on your scalp and not after shedding and regrowing)
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As in it just grows from terminal straight from the root? If so yes and that's what I meant with it sheds and gets thicker and thicker, I'm assuming the terminal hairs shed beforehand in the case it comes out directly as terminal.
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What deficiency, in 1,2 or 3 isoenzyme? or total? Please a link
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I'm assuming total because it isn't stated, the full study might have more information but it's locked behind a paywall. There are a few more studies I just found on it but none of them state anything beyond a simple 5AR deficiency. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1365-2265.1991.tb03769.x
@MyThinningConfidence Do you think that you will be able to get to nw1 with your current regimen (microneedling and finasteride only)?
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Yes I am asking same..Do you get new regrowth as thick as your original ones from the roots or it go through several sheds to go like your original ones???
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Ohh I get what you mean, they vary but typically they start out as small pigmented hairs and they just slowly get thicker over a period of months, I don't think it makes sense for full grown terminal hairs to start forming in the case of my treatment.
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Definitely not NW1, I was looking at some old pictures of myself at 12 and it seemed I went from a NW1.5 to a NW3 by 14 then to a NW4.5 by 20. I seriously don't know if I can actually regrow 9-10 years of hairloss, you can literally see my hairline getting worse over the years by where I part my hairline. I seriously don't know how I was able to deny I was receding all the way up until I was 20. I've regrown about 1-2cm into the slick bald now and my hairline is seriously thicker but I'm unsure how capable I'll be of pushing my hairline further into the slick bald. I think at best I will cap out at about a NW2.5 and anything beyond that will just be unexpected and amazing results. I'm definitely regrowing my hairline but it is a slow process so I'm unsure how far I'll get, it could be possible I'll need to add something else to my regime. I think ideally the standard person would just add minoxidil but I don't want to have to apply a topical to my scalp twice every day for the rest of my life.
I think only a matter of time will tell I'll need to evaluate where I am in 3 months time, if I'm not happy with my hairline at that stage I think I will step up to dutasteride and possibly consider estradiol. Currently right now I'm looking at getting Vitamin D supplements and I'm currently using Vitamin A in the form of a retinol which has supposedly been shown to stimulate the follicle from vellus to terminal. It actually used to be used quite a bit to enhance the effects of minoxidil. The only downside is that it increases sensitivity to the sun making natural Vitamin D more bothersome to get and the possibility of a Vitamin A overdose which could in turn lead to shedding and hair falling out. I'm actually using the Retinol for my skin but I just rub what's left into my temples in the case it does something.
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Hi, in the paper you cited, "The data indicate a phenotypic and biochemical profile similar to patients studied in the Dominican Republic". In this case they talk about pseudohermaphrodites affecting only one of the three 5AR's. IMHO total insensitivity to androgens is not compatible with human life.
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I didn't mean total as in relation to all androgens, there are more androgens than just DHT, I just meant Type 1, 2 and 3 of 5a Reductase as an assumption due to it not being explicitly stated. Based on this article they appear to have a deficiency in both 5AR-1 and 5AR-2 although only the type II isozyme is expressed in gonads, and predictably 5AR-2 has been shown responsible for the 5α-reductase deficiency syndrome.
It actually turns out those people in the Dominican Republic the Guevedoces were actually how finasteride came about. "This observation, made in 1974, was picked up by Roy Vagelos, head of research at the multinational pharmaceutical giant, Merck. He thought this was extremely interesting and set in progress research which led to the development of what has become a best-selling drug, finasteride, which blocks the action of 5-alpha-reductase, mimicking the lack of dihydro-testosterone seen in the Guevedoces."
It's not particularly useful since we're just retreading water and inhibiting DHT doesn't actually regrow hair in the majority of individuals. It's a similar story with castrates as men who are castrated before puberty never go bald later in life and retain a juvenile hairline although doesn't work later in life and will only halt hairloss and not regrow hair beyond just some slight thickening of existing hair. Regrowth in finasteride could possibly be due to an accidental hormonal imbalance that occurs in some people which made me think taking estradiol might be the next step as opposed to jumping to dutasteride and hoping for something positive in terms of hair.
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finas block mainly 5-alpha-reductase type 2, no the 1 and 3 type.
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Yeah and Dutasteride further blocks 5AR-2 and blocks 5AR-1, I don't see the point you're trying to make.
Hey I saw your comment about why you didn't want to use minoxidil, based on the idea that the hair follicles become dependent on it. I just wanted to explain where this notion came from and why it is false. People often say Minoxidil hairs fall out when you stop, but this is only half of the truth. As you pointed out, minoxidil helps with bloodflow, but if the local scalp conditions (fibrosis, etc) are not taken care of, then the hairs will just fall out as their blood supply becomes choke and cannot be sustained without Minoxidil.
If you've ever been on the Minoxidil Beard forums, people frequently use Minoxidil to mature white micro vellus hairs in their beard to become full dark hairs, to fill in their patchy beards, and when they stop Minoxidil, those hairs never fall out. This is because that skin is able to sustain the hairs without the minoxidil. I can speak from experience here because at 22 years old, my beard had not changed at all from since when I was 16. When I did 2 cycles of Minoxidil on it, 4 months each cycle, my beard filled significantly. 3 years later, I still have all that growth, and not only that, the minoxidil thickened up other areas of my beard and made the hairs thicker in general, and so far, this has not reversed at all since stopping. The areas of my beard that minoxidil filled in are still actively growing 3 years later.
So I strongly stand by the notion that there is nothing about Minoxidil that inherently makes hairs become dependent on it. It's just that when Minoxidil grows hairs in areas of the scalp with significant fibrosis/calcification or whatever, those hairs cannot be sustained with Minoxidil if the local fibrosis issue is not taken care of.
We have transparent vellus hairs all over our body and minoxidil can mature these into full-dark hairs, and these hairs do not fall out or become small again! Considering that you have a lot of vellus hairs on your hairline regrown from microneedling, I strongly believe that a short-run of Minoxidil would help accelerate the development of those hairs into mature hairs, without making them become dependent on it.
Just note - if Minoxidil does regrow hairs in areas where the calcification and such is not fully taken care of, the scalp will not be able to sustain those on its own prior to stopping... however, considering you've been needling for a while, Minoxidil may be exactly what you need. It's a major growth stimulant for hair, and as long as the scalp conditions are taken care of, those hairs will be kept.
In any case, keep up the good work!
I am really curious what you think about his hypothesis?
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Thanks for your comment, I've always wondered if the scalp conditions are treated if minoxidil will retain the hairs that are grown with it. Based on everyone that I've ever seen drop minoxidil after regrowing hair on the scalp yet continue other treatments it doesn't seem like it's the case, it always ends extremely negatively for them and a lot of them report they never get back to their original density they had with regrowth although close. Based on people that have grown beards on minoxidil it does seem that some people have reportedly kept their gains although the majority of people see they lose the majority of their gains. I have a few people in mind from the past when I looked into this which was an Asian who lost the majority of his regrowth but kept a fluffy patchy beard and a FTM girl who lost basically all his/her gains.
Re looking into it now here is a comment from someone more knowledgeable in the scene "I've been a moderator of a brazilian minoxidil beard group with TENS OF THOUSANDS of journeys, and from my own experience, and from what I've seen there, and also on the forum jefffsbeardboard [there was a topic from people from the early 2000 until some years ago] , minoxidil works permanently only when you have the genetics to sustain a beard. It makes your beard appear earlier then it would naturally do". Based on this information it would appear those that keep their gains would have just grown a beard anyways but this just speeds it up. I think that this would mean it'd work particularly well in younger individuals wanting to kickstart their beard growth
I think if you do take care of the scalp issues such as calcification/fibrosis it does hold some potential for more permanent gains but I think the realistic expectation for this would be to lose a good amount of your minoxidil gains and perhaps keep a few upon stopping. There isn't really a lot of data on this so it's hard to say how permanent things are, based on what I've seen in other people though I personally don't want to be the one to attempt starting/stopping minoxidil. The very first reason I didn't want to start minoxidil was to avoid the initial shed so I think the worst case is that it will slowdown me actually growing out my hair.
Having a look at some of the beard growth from minoxidil is actually sort of impressive, it also fills in relatively quickly for some people too. It almost tempts me to start using it on my scalp but I don't think I could commit using it for life, I'm far too lazy to do it consistently and it'd end with depressing shedding. Plus if it actually regrew my temples and it turned out they were indeed dependent on minoxidil it'd put my in an odd situation of wanting/not wanting to use it. Based on studies though I can expect a good increase to my regrowth with the addition of it.
Regrowth 24weeks:
Minoxidil only 18.8/cm2
Microneedling 23.4/cm2
Microneedling + Min 38.3/cm2
I think I'd rather incorporate something like dutasteride for increased regrowth but based on people like Bridgeburn with extreme regimes he even still used minoxidil so it could be possible I'm being unrealistic and stubborn. I am actually regrowing my hairline though, it's just a very slow process and it's literally taking many months, I am happy with my regrowth so far but I'd like to step things up to major regrowth with almost transplant level improvements to the hairline.
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Part way into my regime (August 11th) versus now, there is a decent improvement to my hairline, I literally had to take like 50 pictures to try and get the angle right and it's still off but I hope you can see the progress. It's nothing major but my hairline has moved about 1-2cm into the slick bald now. You can also see some flaking skin which is from the microneedling, it just looks like a sunburn, the only reason it's visible is that I haven't had a shower in like 3-4 days, normally it just washes off after a few showers and you can't even see it. I also added an extra two images from the last couple of days
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Do you think your skull has changed shape at all? Any thoughts on the expansion theory?
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Hard to say without sufficient measures to tell, my scalp does feel softer and overall more flexible though but that's probably all I can say on it. Skull expansion theory is believable and still fits under the main hypothesis I believe as one component of balding.