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The studies have already been done and already been linked. The visual difference between 0.20 and 1.00 is less than the statistical measurement error.
Let's Talk About Andogen Receptor Upregulation
- Thread starter GoldenMane
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The studies have already been done and already been linked. The visual difference between 0.20 and 1.00 is less than the statistical measurement error.
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GoldenMane,
Testosterone = $1 bills.
DHT = $5 bills.
5 alpha takes the $1 bills and converts them to $5 bills.
When you get rid of 5alpha, you have the same total number of bills (what you are calling androgen levels), but a lower mount of money (what you should be calling androgen levels).
Testosterone = $1 bills.
DHT = $5 bills.
5 alpha takes the $1 bills and converts them to $5 bills.
When you get rid of 5alpha, you have the same total number of bills (what you are calling androgen levels), but a lower mount of money (what you should be calling androgen levels).
the studies also show a 1% chance of side effects.. this is obviously not the case.
Propecia users have shown that no matter what the studies show people seem to be having experiences that dont match up with the data they present to us.
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I lol at the 1% thing
WangMQ
Established Member
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Samson, did you notice increased libido? And what about the itch/sebum?
I believe finasteride upregulated my androgen receptors. But I never had "increased" libido at any point of my life on finasteride, which is the only thing that doesn't fit into it.
Or maybe simply because finasteride totally deprived my body of normal DHT level and that even with upregulated AR my libido can't be the same anymore.
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Yeah, this something I have considered. I just wonder if its relevant to androgen receptor upregulation. If cells react to lower denomination bills or if it makes no difference as long as the same number of bills are passing through. Anecdotally it may be through though I've seen no scientific evidence to prove that this is what actually happens. If true then I'm making a mistake jumping on dutasteride too early when finasteride is still working....
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here's my account -
finasteride
month one - nothing
month two nothing
monthe 3-12 - burning, crawling, itching all over the scalp
some more additional facts - I never once, ever, felt these kind of sensations my entire life before starting finasteride. It correlates so strongly with hair loss, that it is like a bell to a dog when receiving a treat. I KNOW my hair will fall out when it's at it's worst.
so... what is it? Lets try to deduce something from this, as MANY other people ALL over the internet describe the EXACT same thing when they are going through bouts of rapid Androgenetic Alopecia.
- it is localized in the scalp tissue.
- it is characteristic of an inflammatory response. I have had leg injuries and surgeries and I get the same feeling when those areas are inflammed.
- so, I am taking an ORAL medication that is causing an inflammatory response within my SCALP tissue. It makes more sense when you are applying a topical directly to the scalp that you are allergic to. to me, this was just weird.
- IT HAS TO BE - finasteride is causing a reaction / chain of reactions that is in someway negatively effecting the FOLLICLES. What else would it be targeting to create a widespread inflammation all over the TOP of the scalp??
- DHT is reduced and finasteride ONLY works through THIS mechanism. so... it HAS to be either a large upregulation in receptors, or the sudden increase in test that is causing this.
- I know physiology is much more complicated, but what else could it be? especially given that it remains for a while after you discontinue finasteride, then slowly dissipates.
WHAT AM I MISSING HERE???
finasteride
month one - nothing
month two nothing
monthe 3-12 - burning, crawling, itching all over the scalp
some more additional facts - I never once, ever, felt these kind of sensations my entire life before starting finasteride. It correlates so strongly with hair loss, that it is like a bell to a dog when receiving a treat. I KNOW my hair will fall out when it's at it's worst.
so... what is it? Lets try to deduce something from this, as MANY other people ALL over the internet describe the EXACT same thing when they are going through bouts of rapid Androgenetic Alopecia.
- it is localized in the scalp tissue.
- it is characteristic of an inflammatory response. I have had leg injuries and surgeries and I get the same feeling when those areas are inflammed.
- so, I am taking an ORAL medication that is causing an inflammatory response within my SCALP tissue. It makes more sense when you are applying a topical directly to the scalp that you are allergic to. to me, this was just weird.
- IT HAS TO BE - finasteride is causing a reaction / chain of reactions that is in someway negatively effecting the FOLLICLES. What else would it be targeting to create a widespread inflammation all over the TOP of the scalp??
- DHT is reduced and finasteride ONLY works through THIS mechanism. so... it HAS to be either a large upregulation in receptors, or the sudden increase in test that is causing this.
- I know physiology is much more complicated, but what else could it be? especially given that it remains for a while after you discontinue finasteride, then slowly dissipates.
WHAT AM I MISSING HERE???
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OH... there is a huge possibility I am missing - TELOGEN EFFLUVIUM - a surprisingly common condition that occurs when there is a physiological insult to the body. Doctors will say crap like, "finasteride can't cause Telogen Effluvium" and YET, other medications that alter hormones DO! Everyone I have talked to that has had Telogen Effluvium (my mother, sister, friends, ex that gave birth) DESCRIBE the EXACT same symptoms. burning, tingling, crawling, accompanied by hair loss.
So, frankly, these bullsh*t derms that are OWNED by pharmaceutical companies can SWALLOW A FAT F*CKING D*CK. If finasteride gives you Telogen Effluvium, you can bet if you continue to take it, you will get it again and again, until your hair has been reduced to that of the crypt keepers.
As I already said it's not only upregulation of AR which makes Androgenetic Alopecia more severe as we get older, it's also cumulative exposure to even low levels of DHT (and both T and all other androgens ) over all that time. if upregulation of AR is huge problem, than, old people would have strong muscles, I suppose AR in all tissues would upregulate and they would have more juvenile body.
Remember that finasteride block only 70-80% of DHT inside hair follicles, so the renaming part those 15 to 25% can also damage hair follicles, and that is what is happening for sure. And when you are on finasteride for 10 years this remaining part of DHT inside hair follicles also damages your hair.
Another important thing is that as we get older, all cells in our tissues are older, they divide by much slower rate, there are less growth factors in our organism. We call that process senescence.
Remember that finasteride block only 70-80% of DHT inside hair follicles, so the renaming part those 15 to 25% can also damage hair follicles, and that is what is happening for sure. And when you are on finasteride for 10 years this remaining part of DHT inside hair follicles also damages your hair.
Another important thing is that as we get older, all cells in our tissues are older, they divide by much slower rate, there are less growth factors in our organism. We call that process senescence.
I think AR upregulation is not the most crucial factor. It's third or fourth in the line after cumulative exposure to even low levels of DHT left after finasteride or dutasteride inhibition, senescence and also T damage which can also inhibit scalp hair growth but at much slower rate then DHT can.
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I fail to understand then. My testosterone was within normal boundaries on finasteride and my DHT was at the very bottom of the spectrum. HOW could I have lost LITERALLY 30% of my hair within 8-10 months? I am 34 and have somewhat maintained a relatively thick head of hair, until finasteride. How would this happen without upregulation of ARs
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I agree with gi joey about people's actual experiences with finasteride being at odds with all the studies on the drug that everyone loves to cite. I was .5 mg for six months and I was more or less stable, I didn't notice any changes. finasteride did nothing but accelerate my hairloss and destroyed the quality of my existing hair. I have read a few accounts of hair improving somewhat after quitting and I have been slowly moving in that direction. Last month I took .5mg eod for a week, then dropped it to 3/8 of a 1 mg pill ed for a week, then 3/8 of a pill eod for a week, and then to .25 mg ed. I had been on .25 mg for one week when I buzzed to a two guard like I do every two weeks. The devastion was immediately apparent. I was shocked at how bad things had become so quickly. My existing hair had even become finer. After a buzz cut I always run my hands of my hair to feel the spikey resistance but there wasn't any. So much for the 'flat dose response' .05 mg being almost as effective as 1 mg in dht reduction. I didn't even make a radical reduction in dosage (btw, i recommend lowering the dose the way I did as it was a whole lot easier on my body. Previous attempts at reducing dosage affected me negatively, severe insomnia for a night or two). Anyway, what this shows me is that 1) finasteride isn't necessarily a flat dose response drug. 2) finasteride has made my follicles WAY more sensitive to androgens, given that a small increase in DHT over a very short period of time caused so much damage. 3) I can't quit finasteride because I would be effectively bald within a couple months and I know I couldn't handle that psychologically. The first pic (hair is slightly longer) was taken three weeks ago and the second pic one week ago.Im not sure how that experience would make u believe that finasteride is very dose dependent. Just the idea that finasteride made you up regulate your receptors would just make me belive that your body has tried to compensate for the lack of dht being produced and that you are very sensitive to dht in your scalp. Five month in not long enough to asses the situation yet you say a lot of damage was done and i do believe you so im leaning more toward your personal sensitivity to dht. Many people have repoted increaces hairloss while taking finasteride that is not just a shed. Although i think people will be effected differently by different doses i tend to go with the data that around .06 to 2mg is inhibiting very close to the same amount of dht.
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jesus man, that sucks. It did the same thing to me.
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I didn't mention that I have been on finasteride for two years now. I ramped up from 1/8 of a proscar to 1/4 over a month and took 1.25 mg for 15 months bedofe I slowly dropped it down for six months. I would agree with you that dht wasn't my problem, but greater sensitivity to androgens was. I had been slowly thinning for maybe three or four years before starting finasteride, I can't really pin point it, but I wish I had taken pictures when I started. I would have been hounded off this forum for thinking I had any hairloss.
Part of the problem is finasteride was never really tested in younger guys with lower norwoods. Most of the studies were on advanced norwood levels so IMO given how little anyone really knows its certainly possible the increase in T or receptors change, or something happens that can increase hair loss if you still have most of your hair. I dont think we understand how hair reacts to lowering DHT/raising T/raising E.... Maybe in some men the higher T hurts their hair its just impossible to even guess with how little we know for sure.
The studies say it should never get worse taking propecia, but the studies were small and on high NWs that were almost bald already. What does it do to a guy with healthy normal hair? We dont know. Nothing in theory
The studies say it should never get worse taking propecia, but the studies were small and on high NWs that were almost bald already. What does it do to a guy with healthy normal hair? We dont know. Nothing in theory