male height to Norwood scale

[cantholdmedown]

30 people with Androgenetic Alopecia and metabolic syndrome. You need a way bigger sample. I am aware there are 120 participants.

Agree with that

And you cannot read because it's not age controlled for young balders.

Wrong. Did you even read the results?

[quote:75sfgk1l]
You refuse to look at the other studies which run counter to your beliefs.

And you aren't doing the same thing?
You were making fun of me when I asked you why you quoted that study and now you are saying you quoted a wrong study
Where did you got the original post? You might ask them to change it


Edit: Did you really quoted another article that says that results are inconsistent?[/quote:75sfgk1l]


Do you have the full text or something? 90% of the time young just means <50. If by young they truly looked at 18-25 year olds then I stand corrected. The sample is still far too small. They also exclude NON-OBESE people. And it includes FEMALES for fucks sake.

How did they determine the level of Androgenetic Alopecia? Norwood? Group two also pre screened balders WITH NO METABOLIC SYNDROME. Of course they will not be insulin resistant.

And you are clearly misreading again, it says results in the PAST have been inconsistent.

 

[bigentries]

Do you have the full text or something? 90% of the time young just means <50. If by young they truly looked at 18-25 year olds then I stand corrected. The sample is still far too small. They also exclude NON-OBESE people.

Nah, they just say in the results that they didn't found any difference comparing ages, and duration of Androgenetic Alopecia
By the way, the last study you quoted was in the 40-91 age group, definitely not "young" balders

And you are clearly misreading again, it says results in the PAST have been inconsistent.

Yes, in the past. Like before 2010.
When several studies end up contradicting each other (and you even agree with that in your last study) you need to wait if future studies break up the inconsistencies or you just added another one to a big line of contradictions

 

[cantholdmedown]

Do you have the full text or something? 90% of the time young just means <50. If by young they truly looked at 18-25 year olds then I stand corrected. The sample is still far too small. They also exclude NON-OBESE people.

Nah, they just say in the results that they didn't found any difference comparing ages, and duration of Androgenetic Alopecia
By the way, the last study you quoted was in the 40-91 age group, definitely not "young" balders

And you are clearly misreading again, it says results in the PAST have been inconsistent.

Yes, in the past. Like before 2010.
When several studies end up contradicting each other (and you even agree with that in your last study) you need to wait if future studies break up the inconsistencies or you just added another one to a big line of contradictions

You didn't catch my edit in time, sorry.

But that last study is basically saying people with Androgenetic Alopecia and metabolic syndrome are more insulin resistant than people with Androgenetic Alopecia and who do not currently have metabolic syndrome. Is that really that shocking...

We have no way of knowing the degree of Androgenetic Alopecia and their norwoods, and it's not looking at male only populations. It also excludes obese people.

In short, it is a horrible study that does not contradict anything.

Yes that last study is between 41-90, but it is a massive sample looking at the correct population.

Its not a matter of study A says this and study B says the opposite so there's no answer. You need to look at the quality of the studies.

 

[uncomfortable man]

Correlation =/= causation.

African Americans have a statistically higher chance of getting sickel cell anemia but not all black people get it. So logically it can be deduced that being black isn't what CAUSED the disease. There are also plenty of people with diabetes who live healthy lifestyles so I suppose this issue really depends on what your definition of "health" is.
And this is the root of the problem imo. The overly broad term of "health" is being used to coral people into conforming to societies standards of physical beauty. The contestants on The Biggest Looser aren't competing for their health, they are conforming to a more socially acceptable appearance.... otherwise known as "sexy".
They used to say a good dark tan was healthy.... WAKE UP and realize that true health is not exclusive to whatever template society deems as the most desirable/attractive at the moment.

 

[cantholdmedown]

Correlation =/= causation.

African Americans have a statistically higher chance of getting sickel cell anemia but not all black people get it. So logically it can be deduced that being black isn't what CAUSED the disease. There are also plenty of people with diabetes who live healthy lifestyles so I suppose this issue really depends on what your definition of "health" is.
And this is the root of the problem imo. People are using the overly broad term of "health" to coral people into conforming to societies standards of physical beauty. The contestants on The Biggest Looser aren't competing for their health, they are conforming to a more socially acceptable appearance.... otherwise known as "sexy".
They used to say a good dark tan was healthy.... WAKE UP and realize that true health is not exclusive to whatever template society deems as the most desirable/attractive at the moment.

I don't recall saying male pattern baldness CAUSES disease.

The fact that male pattern baldness is correlated with disease means it's likely a symptom.

But I completely agree with you on your idea of health =/= looking sexy.

 

[uncomfortable man]

[
I don't recall saying male pattern baldness CAUSES disease.

No, but to me it sounds like your argument infers that poor lifestyle choices resulting in overall bad health is the CAUSE for male pattern baldness. In which case I would have to disagree. Now I may not be the ideal picture of health.... I smoke, don't exercise much and I eat like sh*t but my younger brother of two years is a serious athlete and has been most of his life. He eats healthy, he works out, takes great care of himself and he is as bald as I am.

male pattern baldness is just a randomly occurring genetic trait that neither hurts nor helps, rather just exists not indicative of anything. Only society has deemed it unattractive (hence unhealthy) which is ultimately an opinion..... a widely adopted one but an opinion none the less, and not a scientific fact.

 

[Cassin]

You look like a freak. Reading between the lines you seem to be trolling about how happy you are your diffusing as opposed to receeding. Well it all works out to the same thing you strange f*ck.

Not suprised your belgian either, thats a country that really has its measure of weird pedofile types.

Really? A site like this you leave such a comment?

My God I hate banning people....

 

[Cassin]

Guys...if anyone says crap like that we don't need them here and I want them gone. Its an absolute shame such oblivious people exist and have the ability to be heard.

Please always report such things...I do my best to read ever comment but sometimes I miss stuff.

Its not about telling on each other or being sensitive to internet arguments but these forums are designed and held together by being a support system for each other. Arguments will always be here but that kind of sh*t has no room here.

 

[cantholdmedown]

[
I don't recall saying male pattern baldness CAUSES disease.

No, but to me it sounds like your argument infers that poor lifestyle choices resulting in overall bad health is the CAUSE for male pattern baldness. In which case I would have to disagree. Now I may not be the ideal picture of health.... I smoke, don't exercise much and I eat like sh*t but my younger brother of two years is a serious athlete and has been most of his life. He eats healthy, he works out, takes great care of himself and he is as bald as I am.

male pattern baldness is just a randomly occurring genetic trait that neither hurts nor helps, rather just exists not indicative of anything. Only society has deemed it unattractive (hence unhealthy) which is ultimately an opinion..... a widely adopted one but an opinion none the less, and not a scientific fact.

I'm saying poor lifestyle choices LEAD to disease. When people have disease, those with the male pattern baldness gene will start to bald. Which is why we see the correlation. I would speculate that others who don't get bald, get wrinkles, or greys, or pot bellies etc.

"Eats healthy" is a subjective description of an objective term, working out has little to do with preventing hair loss, and there are many other factors to whether someone is healthy or not.

Why is it that the incidence of baldness was next to NOTHING in japan and asia and now we are seeing a phenomenon of balding in the last twenty years?

 

[uncomfortable man]

I'm saying poor lifestyle choices LEAD to disease. When people have disease, those with the male pattern baldness gene will start to bald. Which is why we see the correlation. I would speculate that others who don't get bald, get wrinkles, or greys, or pot bellies etc.

Why is it that the incidence of baldness was next to NOTHING in japan and asia and now we are seeing a phenomenon of balding in the last twenty years?

That is why I used my brother as an example, he is in tremendously good health with no diseases and yet he is still bald. :dunno: According to you, my brother would have all his hair but still carry the gene. You make baldness sound like diabetes.... a genetically passed condition that only manifests itself if you aren't careful. Gray hair and wrinkles are part of aging and not disease.... unless you consider aging itself to be a disease.

I've heard that Japan argument so many times.... don't act like male pattern baldness is the spawn of western civilization's Big Mac. Ancient Egyptians and Rome's Ceasar were trying to cure baldness long before any of this so NO, I'm not seeing the correlation.

 

[cantholdmedown]

I'm saying poor lifestyle choices LEAD to disease. When people have disease, those with the male pattern baldness gene will start to bald. Which is why we see the correlation. I would speculate that others who don't get bald, get wrinkles, or greys, or pot bellies etc.

Why is it that the incidence of baldness was next to NOTHING in japan and asia and now we are seeing a phenomenon of balding in the last twenty years?

That is why I used my brother as an example, he is in tremendously good health with no diseases and yet he is still bald. :dunno: According to you, my brother would have all his hair but still carry the gene. You make baldness sound like diabetes.... a genetically passed condition that only manifests itself you aren't careful. Gray hair and wrinkles are part of aging and not disease.... unless you consider aging itself to be a disease.

I've heard that Japan argument so many times.... don't act like male pattern baldness is the spawn of western civilization's Big Mac. Ancient Egyptians and Rome's Ceasar were trying to cure baldness long before any of this so NO, I'm not seeing the correlation.

Yes I consider aging a disease and so do many scientists. Those who age worst/the fastest will get baldness, wrinkles, greys if they are genetically susceptible to them.

What is wrong with the Asian argument? There is no counter to it. Bringing up the ancient Egyptians is irrelevant.

Read this very carefully

While genetic factors seem to play the principal role in the development and progression of androgenic alopecia, lifestyle also plays a minor role as demonstrated by the vast increase in male and female pattern baldness in Japan after World War II. Pattern baldness (androgenic alopecia) was either rare or non-existent among hunter-gatherer societies.[15]

Anecdotal evidence is suggesting baldness is becoming an epidemic in South Korea. What is happening UC man? Is this just a freak occurrence of the big bad inevitable baldness gene?

 

[bigentries]

What is wrong with the Asian argument? There is no counter to it. Bringing up the ancient Egyptians is irrelevant.

Are there any proofs about that?
Because really, people come up with claims like "Big Macs cause baldness" and then come up with other idiotic responses when people show them busts of Ancient Greeks displaying baldness
Same when newer generations come into play
Are there any evidence that hair loss didn't existed in Asia?

Read this very carefully

While genetic factors seem to play the principal role in the development and progression of androgenic alopecia, lifestyle also plays a minor role as demonstrated by the vast increase in male and female pattern baldness in Japan after World War II. Pattern baldness (androgenic alopecia) was either rare or non-existent among hunter-gatherer societies.[15]

Anecdotal evidence is suggesting baldness is becoming an epidemic in South Korea. What is happening UC man? Is this just a freak occurrence of the big bad inevitable baldness gene?

Did you even read that very carefully?
It says that genetic factors are the principal cause of baldness. Seriously, you even quote things that end up contradicting you

 

[cantholdmedown]

What is wrong with the Asian argument? There is no counter to it. Bringing up the ancient Egyptians is irrelevant.

Are there any proofs about that?
Because really, people come up with claims like "Big Macs cause baldness" and then come up with other idiotic responses when people show them busts of Ancient Greeks displaying baldness
Same when newer generations come into play
Are there any evidence that hair loss didn't existed in Asia?

Read this very carefully

While genetic factors seem to play the principal role in the development and progression of androgenic alopecia, lifestyle also plays a minor role as demonstrated by the vast increase in male and female pattern baldness in Japan after World War II. Pattern baldness (androgenic alopecia) was either rare or non-existent among hunter-gatherer societies.[15]

Anecdotal evidence is suggesting baldness is becoming an epidemic in South Korea. What is happening UC man? Is this just a freak occurrence of the big bad inevitable baldness gene?

Did you even read that very carefully?
It says that genetic factors are the principal cause of baldness. Seriously, you even quote things that end up contradicting you

I posted one study on accident which did not support my views which I later explained why it was irrelevant. Every single thing I have posted since has supported my position. You have now misread me twice (I'm aware of your last edit regarding inconsistency, nice one) because subconsciously you are hell bent on proving there is no link.

I do not have to discuss anything other than Asians to prove my point. Are you not familiar with a black swan?

Is there any evidence hair loss didn't exist in Asia? Yes, it was rare, and I just posted it. Can you not read? There was rare hair loss in hunter gatherer tribes too. There is massive anecdotal evidence in South Korea of a balding phenomenon. Do you Korean people just make that stuff up?

LOL again more misreading:

Did you even read that very carefully?
It says that genetic factors are the principal cause of baldness.

While genetic factors seem to play the principal role in the development and progression of androgenic alopecia

And I also have also never denied genetics have nothing to do with hair loss.

 

[cantholdmedown]

Just keep repeating your mantra x1000 and chugging down some finasteride

there's no link between health and hair...
there's no link between health and hair...
there's no link between health and hair.......

:whistle:

Stress causing more young Koreans to lose hair
?? ???? ?? ????
March 30, 2011
A growing number of Koreans in their 20s and 30s are suffering hair loss due to stress, according to findings of the Health Insurance Policy Research Institute under the National Health Insurance Corporation.

According to the research institute, 88,004 people in their 20s and 30s received hair loss treatment at hospitals in 2009, which was 48.4 percent of the 181,707 patients treated for hair loss that year.

For the last five years, the number of people experiencing hair loss increased, especially for people in their 20s and 30s, research institute statistics showed.

The number of people in their 20s who received hair loss treatment increased from 39,036 people in 2005 to 41,914 in 2009, a 7.4 percent increase.

The cases of those in their 30s are more pronounced, with 46,090 people receiving hair loss treatment in 2009, a 15.3 percent increase from 39,990 people in 2005, the institute said.

And, the institute said, people under 20 aren’t free from hair loss, with 25,067 people under 20 receiving treatment in 2009.

Hair experts say stress, lack of sleep and early hormonal maturity are the main reasons for hair loss.


By Kim Mi-ju, Park Yu-mi [mijukim@joongang.co.kr]

Why is this happening? You have to explain it if you want to deny a link between health and hair. Is the inevitable you'll bald no matter what male pattern baldness gene taking over???? Why do so many people have this gene these days??? LOL.

:jackit:

 

[s.a.f]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

Did you seriously needed to quote this one?

Yes. Now tell me again, there's no link between male pattern baldness and health... :smack:

Sorry but I could'nt see any mention of m.p.b in that link. :dunno:

 

[s.a.f]

[
I don't recall saying male pattern baldness CAUSES disease.

No, but to me it sounds like your argument infers that poor lifestyle choices resulting in overall bad health is the CAUSE for male pattern baldness. In which case I would have to disagree. Now I may not be the ideal picture of health.... I smoke, don't exercise much and I eat like sh*t but my younger brother of two years is a serious athlete and has been most of his life. He eats healthy, he works out, takes great care of himself and he is as bald as I am.

male pattern baldness is just a randomly occurring genetic trait that neither hurts nor helps, rather just exists not indicative of anything. Only society has deemed it unattractive (hence unhealthy) which is ultimately an opinion..... a widely adopted one but an opinion none the less, and not a scientific fact.

Well summed up.
It seems that is trying to infer a link between baldness and bad health but even if bald people have bad health that does'nt mean that bad health causes baldness, and therefore you can do something about that baldness by trying to improve your health.
All I know is I've never been a smoker or a drinker and have excercised my whole life and yet have had some of the most aggresive hairloss possible whilst unfit, obese drinking/smoking NW1's around me generally abused their bodies and are not anywhere near as fit as me.
So there is no way that you can get me to believe that my hairloss is the result of any diet/lifestyle cause or that it could have been prevented by it.

 

[s.a.f]

Yes I consider aging a disease and so do many scientists.

:woot:

 

[cantholdmedown]

[quote="uncomfortable man":3l8pvv8f]

[
I don't recall saying male pattern baldness CAUSES disease.

No, but to me it sounds like your argument infers that poor lifestyle choices resulting in overall bad health is the CAUSE for male pattern baldness. In which case I would have to disagree. Now I may not be the ideal picture of health.... I smoke, don't exercise much and I eat like sh*t but my younger brother of two years is a serious athlete and has been most of his life. He eats healthy, he works out, takes great care of himself and he is as bald as I am.

male pattern baldness is just a randomly occurring genetic trait that neither hurts nor helps, rather just exists not indicative of anything. Only society has deemed it unattractive (hence unhealthy) which is ultimately an opinion..... a widely adopted one but an opinion none the less, and not a scientific fact.

Well summed up.
It seems that is trying to infer a link between baldness and bad health but even if bald people have bad health that does'nt mean that bad health causes baldness, and therefore you can do something about that baldness by trying to improve your health.
All I know is I've never been a smoker or a drinker and have excercised my whole life and yet have had some of the most aggresive hairloss possible whilst unfit, obese drinking/smoking NW1's around me generally abused their bodies and are not anywhere near as fit as me.
So there is no way that you can get me to believe that my hairloss is the result of any diet/lifestyle cause or that it could have been prevented by it.[/quote:3l8pvv8f]

I swear people on this forum have a selective reading disorder. I have not said bad health causes baldness. Bad health + baldness gene = baldness. Bad health + no baldness gene = no baldness.

 

[virtuality]

Smokers are more likely to be bald.

Those who are under stress and don't sleep well are more likely to be bald.

External factors do indeed contribute. Someone who is genetically programmed to bald at 30+, might start balding at, let's say, 25.

Removing the those external factors will NOT return the hair, but may slow down future hair loss.

Eg, me... hair loss literally hit me overnight. One morning I looked at the mirror and I realised I was losing hair. I was extremely stressed at the time with an extremely irregular sleeping pattern. I'm not a health fanatic, but I'm healthier now and my hair seems to be disappearing slower than it used to.

 

[cantholdmedown]

Smokers are more likely to be bald.

Those who are under stress and don't sleep well are more likely to be bald.

External factors do indeed contribute. Someone who is genetically programmed to bald at 30+, might start balding at, let's say, 25.

Removing the those external factors will NOT return the hair, but may slow down future hair loss.

Eg, me... hair loss literally hit me overnight. One morning I looked at the mirror and I realised I was losing hair. I was extremely stressed at the time with an extremely irregular sleeping pattern. I'm not a health fanatic, but I'm healthier now and my hair seems to be disappearing slower than it used to.

:bravo: