Mdv3100 (enzalutamide) - Superstrong Antiandrogen Topical

[sunchyme1]

@whatevr Started enzalutamide today. Wish me luck

Mix:
15% DMSO
70% PEG-400
15% Ethanol-96

all the best mate, ill be following closely

on a side note, ive read bad things about dmso, including from you i think. @IdealForehead is using some as well i think for daro.

isnt this stuff bad news?

 

[whatevr]

all the best mate, ill be following closely

on a side note, ive read bad things about dmso, including from you i think. @IdealForehead is using some as well i think for daro.

isnt this stuff bad news?

Everything is bad news in the hair loss world, my friend. Everything.
It's the only thing that we know of that can dissolve MDV and Darolutamide. If we find something better that will be the day. Until then...
Some people also drink this, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[IdealForehead]

all the best mate, ill be following closely

on a side note, ive read bad things about dmso, including from you i think. @IdealForehead is using some as well i think for daro.

isnt this stuff bad news?

DMSO is actually fantastic according to a lot of people for skin and wrinkles, joint pain, etc. It's related to MSM which people use commonly for joint pain. DMSO has good evidence for post surgical wound healing. I've been reading a lot about it and most of what I've seen is good.

The problem with DMSO (and I think it's partly why my body is drying up like sandpaper in the desert on daro) is that it facilitates very deep absorption of topical compounds. Which is not what we want. We really just want it in the superficial skin where the hair follicles are.

Anything that makes this stuff penetrate more deeply is going to prevent it from being wasted on the outside of our scalp, but also increase systemic absorption through the blood vessels.

I'm definitely going to be cutting down my daro dose ASAP as I'm starting to suffer over here from this dryness. Although we have no solubility data on daro in PG/ethanol/water, in low enough dose perhaps it will still dissolve some, so perhaps I can make a batch without DMSO. Alternatively, one could just cut down the dose of daro/enza to compensate for the added penetration and keep the DMSO the same.

I don't know what's best. Probably needs trial and error. But I don't think DMSO is inherently evil for skin/hair. I've read more saying it's actually good for both skin/hair, besides the risk of over penetration of actives or preservatives in topical compounds etc.

 

[whatevr]

PEG has *some* solubility for Enzalutamide I think. Maybe so for Daro as well.

http://www.google.co.in/patents/WO2015022349A1?cl=en

There is a lot of juicy info here on potential alternative vehicles, perhaps you can dig into this, @IdealForehead ?

 

[IdealForehead]

DMSO is actually fantastic according to a lot of people for skin and wrinkles, joint pain, etc. It's related to MSM which people use commonly for joint pain. DMSO has good evidence for post surgical wound healing. I've been reading a lot about it and most of what I've seen is good.

The problem with DMSO (and I think it's partly why my body is drying up like sandpaper in the desert on daro) is that it facilitates very deep absorption of topical compounds. Which is not what we want. We really just want it in the superficial skin where the hair follicles are.

Anything that makes this stuff penetrate more deeply is going to prevent it from being wasted on the outside of our scalp, but also increase systemic absorption through the blood vessels.

I'm definitely going to be cutting down my daro dose ASAP as I'm starting to suffer over here from this dryness. Although we have no solubility data on daro in PG/ethanol/water, in low enough dose perhaps it will still dissolve some, so perhaps I can make a batch without DMSO. Alternatively, one could just cut down the dose of daro/enza to compensate for the added penetration and keep the DMSO the same.

I don't know what's best. Probably needs trial and error. But I don't think DMSO is inherently evil for skin/hair. I've read more saying it's actually good for both skin/hair, besides the risk of over penetration of actives or preservatives in topical compounds etc.

f***. I forgot something I read previously and didn't think it through sufficiently. DMSO does have a potentially negative (or positive depending on how you look at it) effect on skin by causing some "softening" of collagen (partial breakdown) that we should probably consider.

This is both a negative and positive effect depending on how you look at it. In expander studies where women have implants like my forehead expander but for breast expansion (breast reconstruction post cancer) there is strong research showing DMSO application can help the expansion process proceed more easily by helping the skin stretch more.

DMSO also has a very good effect on breaking down and removing scars for this same reason. So while the studies talk about how great DMSO is for these issues, this might not be a good thing on your skin long term otherwise. Ie. If you don't have a scar or don't have an expander, it might be a very clear negative over time.

So yeah I think maybe we should find a way to get off the DMSO at some stage. @whatevr I'll look at that stuff and try to test some daro dissolution. I don't know how to test dissolution besides "looking at it" to see if the white grains dissolve sufficiently. I presume that's all there is to it. Gonna have to run some tests. Probably will have to mix a whole bunch of concentrations of small amounts in different solvents and then see what seems to dissolve fully and what doesn't. This could be tedious. I'm not doing it now or soon. I think I'll just cut my daro dose down in the mean time and circle back to it.

Why is life so complicated? This is getting exhausting. But at least I'm getting results for it so probably I shouldn't complain.

 

[Jonnyyy]

@whatevr Started enzalutamide today. Wish me luck

Mix:
15% DMSO
70% PEG-400
15% Ethanol-96

Just Enza, or are you combining it with something else as well?

 

[jgray201]

f***. I forgot something I read previously and didn't think it through sufficiently. DMSO does have a potentially negative (or positive depending on how you look at it) effect on skin by causing some "softening" of collagen (partial breakdown) that we should probably consider.

This is both a negative and positive effect depending on how you look at it. In expander studies where women have implants like my forehead expander but for breast expansion (breast reconstruction post cancer) there is strong research showing DMSO application can help the expansion process proceed more easily by helping the skin stretch more.

DMSO also has a very good effect on breaking down and removing scars for this same reason. So while the studies talk about how great DMSO is for these issues, this might not be a good thing on your skin long term otherwise. Ie. If you don't have a scar or don't have an expander, it might be a very clear negative over time.

So yeah I think maybe we should find a way to get off the DMSO at some stage. @whatevr I'll look at that stuff and try to test some daro dissolution. I don't know how to test dissolution besides "looking at it" to see if the white grains dissolve sufficiently. I presume that's all there is to it. Gonna have to run some tests. Probably will have to mix a whole bunch of concentrations of small amounts in different solvents and then see what seems to dissolve fully and what doesn't. This could be tedious. I'm not doing it now or soon. I think I'll just cut my daro dose down in the mean time and circle back to it.

Why is life so complicated? This is getting exhausting. But at least I'm getting results for it so probably I shouldn't complain.

I think DMSO is okay, although 15% seems quite a lot. From my experience using it in high concentrations can make the solution very greasy and it takes time to absorb, even though that sounds contrary to what DMSO does. I think one of the issues in using it on scalp is that it is a harsh product and will dry out the scalp. I had a very dry flakey scalp when using DMSO after a few days so you might need to make adjustments to the amount you use. Unlike when used on the scalp I have read that DMSO is not normally rubbed into the skin, for example, when used for inflammation. Saying all of that, I still use a small amount in my essential oil topical to help with absorbtion.

 

[Jonnyyy]

I use it at 50% DMSO.
It does take a bit longer to absorb indeed.
The dry scalp I mostly get from eth+pg of my minoxidil and RU solutions.
After washing my hair in the morning I apply an eth+castor oil solutions, and in the afternoon I apply again to counter the dry scalp issue.
Eventhough it also has ethanol, the castor oil is nourishing and absorbing at the same time.
I tend to look at it as a double action: nourishing the scalp and hopefully also raising my PGE2ep3.

Holy sh*t you have the most complicated regimen

 

[DavidsDome]

Yeah it's difficult sometimes to keep going.
Sometimes I miss an application here and there.
sh*t happens...
So far no sides on the whole thing.
Will try to take a picture soon.
Still vellus hair all over my left temple, but no terminal hair.

 

[Jonnyyy]

Yeah it's difficult sometimes to keep going.
Sometimes I miss an application here and there.
sh*t happens...
So far no sides on the whole thing.
Will try to take a picture soon.
Still vellus hair all over my left temple, but no terminal hair.

I was hoping that Darolutamide could bring me back to maybe Norwood 2 , thicken up and maintain (currently 2.5 maybe 3) but after seeing how much work you're doing I guess I'll probably have to apply more stuff too.

 

[whatevr]

After one application I have to quit due to side effects of GABA receptor antagonism.
I had severe panic attacks today at work, barely kept my sh*t together.
Shame... because my scalp feels great. But I can't function like this.

I will attempt to get Darolutamide within the near future. Sorry guys, but these side effects are awful.

 

[sunchyme1]

After one application I have to quit due to side effects of GABA receptor antagonism.
I had severe panic attacks today at work, barely kept my sh*t together.
Shame... because my scalp feels great. But I can't function like this.

I will attempt to get Darolutamide within the near future. Sorry guys, but these side effects are awful.

holy sh*t man that sucks

 

[whatevr]

holy sh*t man that sucks

I'm probably the minority here because most people report no side effects. But I have a history of these things before I had panic attacks about 4 years ago that felt like I was going to die. I used products which boost GABA to help myself. Enzalutamide does the exact opposite sadly.

Nowadays I no longer suffer from panic attacks but enzalutamide acts on these same receptors and since I am susceptible it didn't take much. I only applied maybe 15-20 mg overnight.

The odd thing is that I have not a single anti-androgenic side effect (no gyno, libido still OK) - nothing that you would actually expect. But I guess GABA receptors being in the brain are a lot more sensitive than AR.

On the plus side I can confirm to you that the DMSO+PEG+Ethanol vehicle works... Lol !

Anyway... good luck to the rest of you with this experiment.

 

[IdealForehead]

Yeah it's difficult sometimes to keep going.
Sometimes I miss an application here and there.
sh*t happens...
So far no sides on the whole thing.
Will try to take a picture soon.
Still vellus hair all over my left temple, but no terminal hair.

What are you currently using for growth stimulation? Anti-androgenism only goes so far. Castration alone does not likely lead to dramatic recoveries. eg. wounding, topical/oral minoxidil, topical caffeine, LLLT, PRP, etc?

Also how long have you been on the enza? And how long have your bald areas been bald for?

 

[sunchyme1]

I'm probably the minority here because most people report no side effects. But I have a history of these things before I had panic attacks about 4 years ago that felt like I was going to die. I used products which boost GABA to help myself. Enzalutamide does the exact opposite sadly.

Nowadays I no longer suffer from panic attacks but enzalutamide acts on these same receptors and since I am susceptible it didn't take much. I only applied maybe 15-20 mg overnight.

The odd thing is that I have not a single anti-androgenic side effect (no gyno, libido still OK) - nothing that you would actually expect. But I guess GABA receptors being in the brain are a lot more sensitive than AR.

On the plus side I can confirm to you that the DMSO+PEG+Ethanol vehicle works... Lol !

Anyway... good luck to the rest of you with this experiment.

can you not play around with the dosages?

try micro doses maybe?

 

[whatevr]

can you not play around with the dosages?

try micro doses maybe?

15-20 mg is already lower than most people here use. I don't think I have room to play around with anything, and frankly, I don't think I want to.

Picture being in a building with 50 people, you're sitting at the computer, it's dead quiet, you're trying to code. Your head feels foggy and you thinking about this drug you applied last night. Whatever, you try to concentrate on your work, but suddenly there is a sense of dread coming over you. What's happening? You start to worry, all this is highly experimental...you feel weirder and weirder. Are you going to get a seizure? You've been reading about this drug being able to cause that. You start sweating bullets, you get up, go eat an apple to try to calm down. You sit back down but the more you look at the code the more you swirl into panic. Now you get up again, your pulse is 130+, go to the bathroom to splash yourself with cold water because you're in a full blown panic attack. Try to think about anything else to break the panic cycle... it's barely working. You're in this mess for around 10 minutes, before you manage to distract yourself enough and force yourself to talk to a group of people to try to occupy your brain away from causing another attack. After 30 minutes - 1 hour, you are now mostly fine, except your head is still a little bit foggy...

That was my experience today. Would you "play around" with a drug that makes you feel that fucked up at your workplace with so many people around? I was already planning on leaving 2 hours early before this episode stopped because I didn't think I could make it to the end of the shift.

This is a dirty f*****g drug. AA sides are bad enough without having some molecule target your GABA receptors, otherwise you might as well take Finasteride if you want to f*** up your brain.

The anti-androgenic profile is great, but the drug as a whole does way more than it should in the body. The only thing I have left to try is darolutamide. Since it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier and has no affinity for GABA receptors, it sounds like something that could actually work for me.

 

[Jonnyyy]

15-20 mg is already lower than most people here use. I don't think I have room to play around with anything, and frankly, I don't think I want to.

Picture being in a building with 50 people, you're sitting at the computer, it's dead quiet, you're trying to code. Your head feels foggy and you thinking about this drug you applied last night. Whatever, you try to concentrate on your work, but suddenly there is a sense of dread coming over you. What's happening? You start to worry, all this is highly experimental...you feel weirder and weirder. Are you going to get a seizure? You've been reading about this drug being able to cause that. You start sweating bullets, you get up, go eat an apple to try to calm down. You sit back down but the more you look at the code the more you swirl into panic. Now you get up again, your pulse is 130+, go to the bathroom to splash yourself with cold water because you're in a full blown panic attack. Try to think about anything else to break the panic cycle... it's barely working. You're in this mess for around 10 minutes, before you manage to distract yourself enough and force yourself to talk to a group of people to try to occupy your brain away from causing another attack. After 30 minutes - 1 hour, you are now mostly fine, except your head is still a little bit foggy...

That was my experience today. Would you "play around" with a drug that makes you feel that fucked up at your workplace with so many people around? I was already planning on leaving 2 hours early before this episode stopped because I didn't think I could make it to the end of the shift.

This is a dirty f*****g drug. AA sides are bad enough without having some molecule target your GABA receptors, otherwise you might as well take Finasteride if you want to f*** up your brain.

The anti-androgenic profile is great, but the drug as a whole does way more than it should in the body. The only thing I have left to try is darolutamide. Since it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier and has no affinity for GABA receptors, it sounds like something that could actually work for me.

I'm really bad with anything Anti Androgenic, I felt as if I had sides off Zix, so if I don't get sides from Daro 99% of people here wouldn't either.

 

[whatevr]

I'm really bad with anything Anti Androgenic, I felt as if I had sides off Zix, so if I don't get sides from Daro 99% of people here wouldn't either.

Lol I had sides from Zix but they weren't anti androgenic, but awful pain around the eyes and headaches. It was the combo zinc + alcohol + distilled water, because I tried using copper compounds as well and if you combine either of those minerals with alcohol and water you get those sides. Was pretty bad tbh. Never figured out what caused that, but I stopped trying Zix so yeah...

 

[Jonnyyy]

Lol I had sides from Zix but they weren't anti androgenic, but awful pain around the eyes and headaches. It was the combo zinc + alcohol + distilled water, because I tried using copper compounds as well and if you combine either of those minerals with alcohol and water you get those sides. Was pretty bad tbh. Never figured out what caused that, but I stopped trying Zix so yeah...

My hairloss is aggressive but I'm gonna do .25% Darolutamide on entire scalp daily, do you think I can thicken up and maintain at the very least?

 

[IdealForehead]

My hairloss is aggressive but I'm gonna do .25% Darolutamide on entire scalp daily, do you think I can thicken up and maintain at the very least?

You might want to try much lower than that like 0.1% or less even once daily if you're committed to doing this and say you've been sensitive in the past to antiandrogens.

0.1% should still be dramatically stronger than RU if the calculations were right.