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- 3,656
1 mg/ml sounds pretty affordable. Would it actually do anything though? Let's say you need 3 ml to cover your scalp, so that's just 3 mg (daily?)
Mdv3100 (enzalutamide) - Superstrong Antiandrogen Topical
- Thread starter whatevr
- Start date
1 mg/ml sounds pretty affordable. Would it actually do anything though? Let's say you need 3 ml to cover your scalp, so that's just 3 mg (daily?)
- Reaction score
- 320
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- 3,025
Well I've cut down to 6 mg a day as of yesterday and I've still got systemic dryness though its improving. It will take some time for my body to equilibriate to this new dose. But I expect I'll have to cut down even further in the long run. Don't underestimate how strong this stuff is.
- Reaction score
- 3,656
Can't do mate. I won't be using it anymore, in fact I hope it won't take 6 days for these attacks to stop. The half life is very long sadly. Hopefully a good deal of it got 'spent' already.
Daro should be safer at least in theory, it doesnt do these things. Since I did not get antiandrogenic sides, but GABA sides (which are unique to MDV), daro should be usable.
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Yes.
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- 51
I use topical minoxidil and use a hairmax laser comb as well.
Then UV-B and castor oil to hopefully somewhat raise PGE2.
You might want to check 'my regime' for the complete line-up
Anti-androgens are idd not the whole story.
Maybe adding cyclosporine could be an option. I can just get it in the pharmacy, which is nice. No dodgy possibly Chinese powders for once.
The area has been bald for quite some years, lets say 5 to 7.
It's probably already quite amazing that it filled up with vellus hair. It's definitely a proof that it's all doing something at least.
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- 421
How are you doing on shedding?I use topical minoxidil and use a hairmax laser comb as well.
Then UV-B and castor oil to hopefully somewhat raise PGE2.
You might want to check 'my regime' for the complete line-up
Anti-androgens are idd not the whole story.
Maybe adding cyclosporine could be an option. I can just get it in the pharmacy, which is nice. No dodgy possibly Chinese powders for once.
The area has been bald for quite some years, lets say 5 to 7.
It's probably already quite amazing that it filled up with vellus hair. It's definitely a proof that it's all doing something at least.
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- 51
I never had a real shed period.
My hairline slowly recedes but I dont have sheddings, like minoxidil sheddings or anything.
Its too early to say if the receding has stopped completely.
Judging on the new vellus hairs, receding should have stopped and is probably reversing at a slow pace.
My hairline slowly recedes but I dont have sheddings, like minoxidil sheddings or anything.
Its too early to say if the receding has stopped completely.
Judging on the new vellus hairs, receding should have stopped and is probably reversing at a slow pace.
I had exactly the same sides as described by whatevr. Absolut brainfog resulting in panic attacks just after a few applications of enza. I had those ten years ago, when i was on dutasteride oral.
This time it was even worse. Couldnt even drive my car. This Enza is hardcore stuff, for me not worth it. All i can advise, people be cateful. Even in combination with Dmso, cant be healthy at all. Some people claim to use 50% Dmso.
This time it was even worse. Couldnt even drive my car. This Enza is hardcore stuff, for me not worth it. All i can advise, people be cateful. Even in combination with Dmso, cant be healthy at all. Some people claim to use 50% Dmso.
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- 51
Sorry to hear this @whatevr I was following your story hopefully Daro will be better suited to you and all of us
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- 320
Good luck mate, I'll soon use RU and Alpicort F and try what you tried.
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- 3,025
I use topical minoxidil and use a hairmax laser comb as well.
Then UV-B and castor oil to hopefully somewhat raise PGE2.
You might want to check 'my regime' for the complete line-up
Anti-androgens are idd not the whole story.
Maybe adding cyclosporine could be an option. I can just get it in the pharmacy, which is nice. No dodgy possibly Chinese powders for once.
The area has been bald for quite some years, lets say 5 to 7.
It's probably already quite amazing that it filled up with vellus hair. It's definitely a proof that it's all doing something at least.
Cyclosporin looked poor when i reviewed it. Plus majorly toxic if it absorbs. Only other ideas i can add are wounding with maybe valproic acid for stem cell stimulation. Or oral minoxidil. Oral minoxidil for me seems to be much stronger than topical both for effects and sides.
Lastly there's topical estrogen to the corners and temples but like me I'm guessing you're trying to avoid that.
If the areas have been slick for years you may have to accept recovery will be slow and possibly only partial. irreversible scarring and follicle damage likely takes place at different rates for all of us.
Be patient though. It took a long time to go this bald. It may take a long time to reverse it.
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- 3,656
Yes, that's exactly how it feels. Just a wave of sudden "feeling of doom" / panic that comes out of nowhere, and then you fall into a positive feedback loop where you're panicking over your panicking and it feels like you're going to die within 5 minutes. I've had that 4 years ago so I know how it feels.
BTW, this are not AA sides. This is a classic "GABA crisis". You can increase anxiety with Dutasteride by inhibiting sedating neurosteroids that blocking lots of 5-AR in the brain can do, but there is nothing worse for inducing a full blown panic attack than blocking GABA receptors.
I've been scared when starting Finasteride (couldn't sleep the first night I took the pill), as well as RU. But no matter how scared I was about taking a new drug, I never got these kind of panic attacks that I got after just one application of enzalutamide. So in my experience this is absolutely unique to this drug.
The key point is that I didn't feel any actual "anti-androgenic" side effects - so that means without the properties of getting into the brain and binding to GABA, a drug like this would work very well for hair most likely (and Darolutamide fits this bill).
Anyway the good news is that the panic attack happened only the first day and the second day I was fine, so THANK GOD I didn't need to wait 6 days for that to stop, like the half-life would suggest.
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So far, I've been dissolving 40 mg in 1 mL DMSO (warmed in the microwave), then adding 1 mL PEG-300 and 1 mL 75.5% Ethanol for a 3 mL solution in a 10 mL glass bottle and spraying it. I don't feel anything.
This is my new preparation, since previous batches would get clouded and were difficult to bring them back into solution, even when adding more DMSO. It's very clear.
This is my new preparation, since previous batches would get clouded and were difficult to bring them back into solution, even when adding more DMSO. It's very clear.
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- 3,025
I just want to mention for reference here that I looked into the subject of heat stability as I found @JLF's method of warming my daro solution in the microwave for 5-6 seconds at a time very helpful for facilitating dissolution.
We don't have data on daro. But we do have data on enza and they're relatively similar compounds so hopefully the data should apply for both.
The study is here. They ran four types of forced degradation tests:
Their results were that enza was pretty stable in all conditions even after 4 hours each of torture. Most pertinent to us, since our solutions should be neither acidic nor basic, is likely the "dry heat" study where there was no degradation at all after 80 degrees celcius for 4 hours:
So likely we don't have to worry much about heating our solutions a bit. Also, I note the patent @whatevr posted earlier for different ways of creating enza solutions suggested heating the solutions up to 60 degrees and stirring for 15 minutes to get easier dissolution.
So I think we can conclude this is safe for enzalutamide, and likely for daro as well.
We don't have data on daro. But we do have data on enza and they're relatively similar compounds so hopefully the data should apply for both.
The study is here. They ran four types of forced degradation tests:
Their results were that enza was pretty stable in all conditions even after 4 hours each of torture. Most pertinent to us, since our solutions should be neither acidic nor basic, is likely the "dry heat" study where there was no degradation at all after 80 degrees celcius for 4 hours:
So likely we don't have to worry much about heating our solutions a bit. Also, I note the patent @whatevr posted earlier for different ways of creating enza solutions suggested heating the solutions up to 60 degrees and stirring for 15 minutes to get easier dissolution.
So I think we can conclude this is safe for enzalutamide, and likely for daro as well.
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- 3,025
Hey JLF. How long have you been using enza? Looks like about 3 months? Statistically significant regrowth occurred in finasteride trials by 6 months. We all want hair faster. But even a "good response" may therefore mean you need to be on it a while first. And I think you said those areas had been bald for a while so although I hate to say it we all must accept in bald areas there unfortunately may be insurmountable fibrosis.
You could always add wounding to see if you can get more de novo hair genesis.
Also I wonder about the use of PEG400. It is really a wildcard since as far as I know there are no professional hair product formulations that use it. Or am I uninformed? If the PEG400 is interfering with sufficiently deep absorption to hit the hair follicles, you might not be getting a full effect through the scalp. Probably it is penetrating if that is the same vehicle guys like @whatevr used, as they would likely not have had such severe side effects if it wasn't penetrating at all.
But this is why I feel very happy about just using Kirkland minoxidil as my new daro base (PG/ethanol/water). It's such a well proven formulation and delivery system for the scalp. With respect to DMSO, for example, I kept thinking "Why don't professional minoxidil formulations use DMSO?" And the reason is likely there would be too much systemic absorption and the companies know that. So my point is we should probably try to keep our formulations as close to the "standard" vehicles as possible. The more we stray the more variables we add.
Of course I understand this is a limitation of enzalutamide as you are using much higher quantities and they are therefore more difficult to solubilize. Hopefully you won't be on enza forever though.
Is a topical like this the better idea than something like propecia, and if so why dont we have one 25 years later? Personally I dont buy into the idea that environmental factors play a large role in male pattern baldness because powerful AAs alone completely stop male pattern baldness in the large majority of men despite all the same environmental factors still at play. Androgens are a huge huge factor that is just unarguable.
If someone is eating a bad diet, and then adds propecia stopping male pattern baldness yet still eats the same diet then it cant be diet that causes male pattern baldness to any real degree. Same with air pollution, day of the week, wearing hats or whatever else people say like smoking. I dont buy it if it was then AAs wouldnt do much if anything.
If someone is eating a bad diet, and then adds propecia stopping male pattern baldness yet still eats the same diet then it cant be diet that causes male pattern baldness to any real degree. Same with air pollution, day of the week, wearing hats or whatever else people say like smoking. I dont buy it if it was then AAs wouldnt do much if anything.