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- 179
so, what does everyone think of the work done by mozarella? i think mozqrellas study has some limitations and i find it hard to believe that such a low dose will inhibit dht far enough
mozarella topical finasteride full study
- Thread starter badnewsbearer
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- finasteride topical
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When I first saw it, I felt the whey the study was conducted was cheesy, but now 25 years since its release, the results have definitely matured over time.
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- 2,104
To be serious, we know that even a very low dose of finasteride reduces serum DHT significantly. But I don't think that is the issue at all. We see guys go from 1mg oral to 0.5mg and suddenly have much worse hair, although the difference is only like 1% or so IIRC. I think we need more research on the TISSUE values, like scalp DHT at these low doses. I think there might have been a study out there that explored the difference in scalp DHT with doses such as 0.25, 0.5, 1mg but I can't remember. Anyone know these numbers off-hand?
Effects of a novel finasteride 0.25% topical solution on scalp and serum dihydrotestosterone in healthy men with androgenetic alopecia - PubMed
The novel finasteride 0.25% solution applied o.d. at the doses of 100 and 200 μL results in an appropriate inhibition of scalp DHT potentially minimizing the untoward sexual side-effects linked to a systemic DHT reduction.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Methods: Two randomized, parallel-group studies were conducted. Study I: 18 men received 1 mL (2.275 mg) P-3074, applied to the scalp once a day (o.d.) or twice a day (b.i.d), or 1 mg oral tablet o.d. for 1 week. Study II: 32 men received P-3074 at the dose of 100 (0.2275 mg), 200 (0.455 mg), 300 (0.6285 mg), or 400 (0.91 mg) μL or the vehicle o.d. for 1 week. Scalp and serum DHT and serum testosterone were evaluated at baseline and treatment end.
Results: Change from baseline in scalp DHT was -70% for P-3074 o.d. and approx. -50% for P-3074 b.i.d. and the tablet. Serum DHT decreased by 60 - 70%. The doses of 100 and 200 μL P-3074 resulted in a -47/-52% scalp DHT reduction, similar to the 300 and 400 μL doses (i.e., -37/-54%). A -5.6% inhibition was observed for the vehicle. Serum DHT was reduced by only -24/-26% with 100 and 200 μL P-3074 and by -44/-48% with 300 and 400 μL P-3074. No relevant changes occurred for serum testosterone.
Conclusions: The novel finasteride 0.25% solution applied o.d. at the doses of 100 and 200 μL results in an appropriate inhibition of scalp DHT potentially minimizing the untoward sexual side-effects linked to a systemic DHT reduction.
- Reaction score
- 2,104
Thanks. I remember this one, Derek from MPMD went over this one before. One thing he points out is that it doesn't make sense is how once daily inhibited 70% while twice daily inhibited 50%, seems like an error. It is also annoying that this study was only one week long. We need more studies on finasteride dosages and scalp DHT.Effects of a novel finasteride 0.25% topical solution on scalp and serum dihydrotestosterone in healthy men with androgenetic alopecia - PubMed
The novel finasteride 0.25% solution applied o.d. at the doses of 100 and 200 μL results in an appropriate inhibition of scalp DHT potentially minimizing the untoward sexual side-effects linked to a systemic DHT reduction.
Methods: Two randomized, parallel-group studies were conducted. Study I: 18 men received 1 mL (2.275 mg) P-3074, applied to the scalp once a day (o.d.) or twice a day (b.i.d), or 1 mg oral tablet o.d. for 1 week. Study II: 32 men received P-3074 at the dose of 100 (0.2275 mg), 200 (0.455 mg), 300 (0.6285 mg), or 400 (0.91 mg) μL or the vehicle o.d. for 1 week. Scalp and serum DHT and serum testosterone were evaluated at baseline and treatment end.
Results: Change from baseline in scalp DHT was -70% for P-3074 o.d. and approx. -50% for P-3074 b.i.d. and the tablet. Serum DHT decreased by 60 - 70%. The doses of 100 and 200 μL P-3074 resulted in a -47/-52% scalp DHT reduction, similar to the 300 and 400 μL doses (i.e., -37/-54%). A -5.6% inhibition was observed for the vehicle. Serum DHT was reduced by only -24/-26% with 100 and 200 μL P-3074 and by -44/-48% with 300 and 400 μL P-3074. No relevant changes occurred for serum testosterone.
Conclusions: The novel finasteride 0.25% solution applied o.d. at the doses of 100 and 200 μL results in an appropriate inhibition of scalp DHT potentially minimizing the untoward sexual side-effects linked to a systemic DHT reduction.
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- 984
Either an error or if its correct, maybe because it was only a week people didn't have time to adjust to the twice a day routine properly, could be they were fussing with their hair more, spending much longer washing it out, or applying two rushed careless applications rather than one more methodical one.
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- 179
we dont see this its just personal anecdotes that are probably BS
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- 2,104
Well to be fair it's probably not like it makes hair all that much worse, but probably could induce a shed.
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a shed makes no sense, the increase in scalp dht is so minimal, if -70% gets regrowth how is -65% going to induce a sged? compared to the absolute reduction it is a very minor difference, probably depends on if you were just ahnging by on 1mg or a good responder
the question tho is is topical finasteride at doses in this study, 0.005% or 0.01% effective? mazarella study would suggest it is because they even talk abojt repigmentation and deminaturization. then on the other hand i often feel like my hair getting worse on 0.05% ten times the dose, i wonder if this topical finasteride really works.
we have this one study but the design was sh*t, they dis not apply 1ml of 0.5mg but rather 0.2ml of 2.5mg concentration and meqsured on a tiny area. kind of fishy
in the end i think the vehicoe might turn out to be key, certainly more promising than any other treatment in pipeline
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- 2,104
How do you know it’s -65%
also, it goes even deeper than that. Scalp DHT is not necessarily indicative of the IFU.
Also think about how 0.5mg dutasteride inhibits 50% scalp DHT but 2.5mg is upwards of 75%.
My point is that serum levels and even scalp levels are not necessarily indicative of what is going on in the follicle and even seemingly subtle changes could be more meaningful than we think. There really is a trickle-down effect. Not only that but there is the matter of upregulation as well. It is much more complex than we realize and we need more in-depth studies.
Methods: This randomized, double-blind, double dummy, parallel-group, 24-week study was conducted in adult male outpatients with Androgenetic Alopecia at 45 sites in Europe. Efficacy and safety were evaluated. Finasteride, testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) concentrations were measured.
Results:
No serious adverse events were treatment related. As maximum plasma finasteride concentrations were >100 times lower, and reduction from baseline in mean serum DHT concentration was lower (34.5 vs. 55.6%), with topical vs. oral finasteride, there is less likelihood of systemic adverse reactions of a sexual nature related to a decrease in DHT with topical finasteride.
Results:
No serious adverse events were treatment related. As maximum plasma finasteride concentrations were >100 times lower, and reduction from baseline in mean serum DHT concentration was lower (34.5 vs. 55.6%), with topical vs. oral finasteride, there is less likelihood of systemic adverse reactions of a sexual nature related to a decrease in DHT with topical finasteride.
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what are the doseage levels in actual volume or mg and NOT percent if someone wanted to make their own formula at home? 1mg pill per day topically applied?
Thanks
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I know this because studies like this exist. serum dht is worthless, when you measure scalp dht serum dht is already counted into that, do you think the scalp has no blood supply? its not like they cut tissue out without any vasculature. furthermore every single study shows that scalp dht is very much so indicative of hair loss or not, also the exact biological underpinnings are not really important, what matters is that it works.
I just want to know if a set up like the low dose of mazzarella can actually work
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U sure bro? I was just gonna sprinkle a little parmesan twice daily and see how it goes
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what kind of a boomer you must be to still jerk off to these jokes at this point? how old are you, 15 or 55?
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U mad lol
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not really. im just depressed that nobody seems to be willing to engage in serious discussion about this. also I find it really frustrating that my body has this strong reaction to almost everything I try, how can it be that some people get along with ultra high sex change level doses of dutasteride and I cant even take my 0.05% topical finasteride without having very serious ED and a complete loss of libido and mind penis connection. I dont have ED like an old man, often they can still work it out its just less hard or durable, I can literally not maintain an erection for more than 5 seconds no matter what I do and this all from such a laughable dose of finasteride of which probably just 0.05mg hit the bloodstream. my doctor even called it a homeopathic dosage. now I have to live with ED for the next few years because it is still better than shaving head and being so utterly disgusting where it affects my social life a lot more than no libido, however it is just so defeating and depressing to try many things and none seem to work at all. and instead of discussing you get boomer cheese jokes, how lame
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Maybe try out KX-826 (Pyrilutamide)? I will participate in the group buy when the results from Phase 2 come out.
I know how you feel. I've tried oral finasteride (1mg, 0.5mg, 0.25mg) and got fairly significant side effects. I moved onto topical finasteride 0.05% (Hims) which was going great for a few weeks but then the side effects caught up with me (although mild). I'm now on a 0.005% topical in line with the study we're talking about (been using for 2.5 months, no noticeable results yet). My libido is slightly lower than pre-finasteride and I don't get MW very often, so even this dose is seems to giving me mild systemic side effects, but they're bearable. If you look at the studies, a 0.05mg oral dose will reduce DHT by about 50% (1mg gives a 60% reduction); at 0.01mg orally, DHT reduction is no different to placebo, so a topical dose somewhere between these two is probably what we're after (assuming follicular 5 alpha reductase is the culprit).
Finasteride is an insanely potent drug with a very steep inhibition curve.
My take on this is that if 0.05mg orally can lead to a 50% drop in systemic DHT, then that's surely the absolute maximum we should be applying to our heads if the objective is local 5 alpha reductase inhibition, and even then, it's not clear how much would hit the bloodstream.
Mozzarella's study is encouraging but all of the more recent studies have looked at topical formulations of 0.1-0.25% and there's no other evidence to show that a 0.005% topical would work. This is the last roll of the dice for me and will shave it if I don't see any results. I'm also confused by the latest topical finasteride study which shows a fairly limited reduction in systemic DHT using a 0.25% topical - doesn't this contradict the earlier studies that showed virtually no difference between oral and topical administration when it came to systemic DHT reduction?